Tellico update 7-1-09 - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum

k9crazy · 07-01-2009, 05:37 AM

The waiting time for us to file suit has expired (it was a bit extended because we needed to address a few additional agencies and this set us back 2 weeks), so we can file at any time we wish.

As of now, the FS has not responded to SFWDA's NOI to sue under the CWA. We are not discouraged by this, and in fact do not want the FS to rush their analysis. The best thing that can happen (short of a complete change in heart and reopening the area with no changes) is that they decide that they need to do more research based on our work.

We believe that the work that our members and donors paid for in the Caliber Report and EA Comments is helping us to solidify our stance that the area can be maintained and should be reopened.

On the advice of our legal team, we are not filing suit right now and will wait until we hear from the FS. This could either be with a decision or some other communication in response to our NOI. We will, however, continue to travel to DC to talk with our elected officials. We will also continue to work with our attorneys, BRC, and United on the strategy we will follow when the time comes and a decision is made.

In addition, we are in the process of requesting some additional information from the FS to further explore the actions the FS has taken at Tellico. This is done through a Freedom of Information Act Request and is a formal way to make sure that the government is giving us all the information we need to build our case.

As far as funding goes, so far we’ve raised about 16% of the money we anticipate needing to fight this fight. Funds have been spent on the Caliber Report, fronting money for T-shirts and other fundraising items and paying the lawyers.

Finally, we now have a PR person within the organization that is going to be publishing updates to our members on the SFWDA forum (and I will cross post on other forums) on a regular basis. While things are slow, it will be every 2 weeks to a month. When we hear from the FS and activities pick up, it will be more often.

I hope that this answers many of the questions that are out there, but if not, please feel free to ask questions on this thread and I will do what I can to answer or find the answers. As always, your support is appreciated!

DRM · 07-01-2009, 05:42 AM

THANK YOU for the update.

5keepers · 07-01-2009, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drm

thank you for the update.

x2

McCracken · 07-01-2009, 06:29 AM

Thanks for the heads up Heather. I look forward to John's posts and updates.

Crawfords Campground · 07-01-2009, 06:51 AM

Thanks for the post Heather...Anything we can do to assist in fund raising let me know.

Icemanii · 07-01-2009, 07:18 AM

Excellent update, thank you.

Eventhough · 07-01-2009, 12:28 PM

Thank you Heather and SFWDA!!!

k9crazy · 07-01-2009, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROCKRAWL

Why wait for the FS?What about sue thier ass,havent we waited to sue long enough to see them logging our trails?

On what basis would you suggest we sue their ass? If you have a relevant claim that you believe will hold up in court, I'd be happy to have our attorneys asses it for potential action.

funkskunk · 07-01-2009, 03:49 PM

Heather thanks for your work! Are there any ideas for another gathering to raise funds?

GSW · 07-02-2009, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROCKRAWL

So K9,Your saying we dont have a leg to stand on?We as offroaders need to treat every place we ride like its the last time we might be able to ride it and I try to do something now to prevent a closure of more trails.Prevention.

I think you're bumrushing past the details that Heather posted above. Synopsis: We have a few legs to stand on. The legal team understands strategy and timing better than we do. Rolling over and accepting the proposed closure of Tellico would be a dangerous precedent. Fundraising remains critical.

Eventhough · 07-02-2009, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROCKRAWL

So K9,Your saying we dont have a leg to stand on?We as offroaders need to treat every place we ride like its the last time we might be able to ride it and I try to do something now to prevent a closure of more trails.Prevention.

It has been said before and I'm sure it will be said many times again.

SFWDA and Rescue Tellico have many legs to stand on. Read the reports that have been made public and you will see.

You can't rush into things - you have to wait to show your hand until the right time - this is a basic principle of business and law.

k9crazy · 07-02-2009, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROCKRAWL

So K9,Your saying we dont have a leg to stand on?We as offroaders need to treat every place we ride like its the last time we might be able to ride it and I try to do something now to prevent a closure of more trails.Prevention.

Do you just sit around being negative? Seriously, you've posted up before that it is not your intent to sabotage Rescue Tellico, but you just can't help yourself and constantly shit on everything we do. I agree that prevention goes a long way, but we did that at Tellico and it didn't work. Now we are past that and now we are fighting.

We do have a leg to stand on, but if we lose this battle, that leg will be much weaker than ever. That is why this is worth the time and the effort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSW

I think you're bumrushing past the details that Heather posted above. Synopsis: We have a few legs to stand on. The legal team understands strategy and timing better than we do. Rolling over and accepting the proposed closure of Tellico would be a dangerous precedent. Fundraising remains critical.

Bingo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eventhough

It has been said before and I'm sure it will be said many times again.

SFWDA and Rescue Tellico have many legs to stand on. Read the reports that have been made public and you will see.

You can't rush into things - you have to wait to show your hand until the right time - this is a basic principle of business and law.

Exactly!

navy-jeepster · 07-02-2009, 08:24 AM

A thing to remember before posting something negative here, is that the anti-access/recreation crowd watches these forums.
They like to see the seperation amoungst us, as they know if they can divide us, they can conquer us.

The legal team will keep things close to heart, as we would not want to let our plan be fully known prior to the right moment. When you sue, you pretty much put all your marbles on the table for the other guys to see, and if everything is not lined up, you increase your chance of loosing.

Also, as the forest service is a government branch, they move slow, very slow, and have been under some very drastic budget cuts over the years.
I am sure they are working on the information provided by SFWDA within the boundries that they have to follow.

They are doing good work to reopen Tellico. I know for those that want to wheel, it is not fast enough. One of my local areas is closed also, and we are working issues to reopen it. Been closed for over a year now.

Thanks to those working on Tellico. Please support them.

Todd

DRM · 07-02-2009, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eventhough

You can't rush into things - you have to wait to show your hand until the right time - this is a basic principle of business and law.

Well, Tellico IS closed, and I have seen ZERO evidence to date that it will be open every again.

I'd hardly call questioning how we got where we are now to be "rushing into things"... would you?

k9crazy · 07-02-2009, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRM

Well, Tellico IS closed, and I have seen ZERO evidence to date that it will be open every again.

I'd hardly call questioning how we got where we are now to be "rushing into things"... would you?

I think he means "rushing into" showing our hand to the opposition. We need to position ourselves for an optimal strike in the court system. I'll liken this to war...an ill-prepared force or ill-timed attack usally results in massive casulties and losing the fight. This is the same thing. We need to have all our ducks in a row (this includes having all the data we need as well as the financial strength to fight the fight) and then we need to launch the law suit. Filing the suit too soon might give us some short-term satisfaction, but in the long run, it's nothing but premature and wasted effort.

GubNi · 07-02-2009, 10:12 AM

16%???

I've donated over $100 and know many others that have. How much is this going to cost?

k9crazy · 07-02-2009, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GubNi

16%???

I've donated over $100 and know many others that have. How much is this going to cost?

Our fundraising goal is $250,000. Remember, TU's bill is being footed by Ted Turner through SELC.

GubNi · 07-02-2009, 10:25 AM

I am surprised you haven't gotten over $250,000.

How much did the adopt a trout thing bring in?

k9crazy · 07-02-2009, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GubNi

I am surprised you haven't gotten over $250,000.

How much did the adopt a trout thing bring in?

Not even close. Adopt-a-trout was at $295 (that's 59 trout) as of 6/12.

Total raised as of 6/12: $41,482.52

DRM · 07-02-2009, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k9crazy

Our fundraising goal is $250,000. Remember, TU's bill is being footed by Ted Turner through SELC.

I guess what I get back to is: what would $250,000 get us if we invested it elsewhere?

Could SFWDA open their own "Golden Mountain Park" with that kind of investment, and staffed it with ongoing revenues?

Hey - I run a business, and I have to do this on a daily basis... decide when it's time to abandon a failing venture and invest the capital elsewhere for a better return.

k9crazy · 07-02-2009, 11:55 AM

The answer to opening their own area with $250K is probably not. For the sake of argument, let's say that they need half of the acreage of Tellico...that's about 2500 acres. Even at only $500 an acre, that's $1.25 million dollars. And that doesn't include trail building (the right way) etc.

$250K won't get you a 5 acre lot these days.

Crawfords Campground · 07-02-2009, 12:01 PM

I am in business too, and I can say it will be a fools bet to invest in an off road park anywhere in the South East if we lose the fight for Tellico OHV. People, this fight is much bigger than Tellico. Do you honestly think that a private park is safe. I have access to about 200 acres just up the road from the campground that some investors were thinking of opening a small off road area when Tellico closed up. The investment is huge when you plug in the cost of the land, Maintenance, INSURANCE and all of the agencies you have to go through to develop an area. The developing the area thing is a scary thought, since if you are going to try to create a legit buisness then you have to have permits, engineering, sight plan, silt protection and maintenance plan. $250,000 is just what you may need to maybe purchase some land. Take a look at the Tellico OHV projected maintenance plan as an example. In regards to the above information and regulation, how much maintenance do you think you could pay for or be willing to. Why do you think the private parks out there charge the big fees. How many of those parks do you think are actually functioning on luck? Of course we can just carve out a bunch of trails in the woods and hope to re coop the investment before the EPA comes in and shuts us down, imposes a daily fine of $5000 per day to repair the issues or someone stubs their toe, hires The law Firm of Sue,Them & How and takes you to the cleaners.
This fight with Tellico is life changing...we lose this one, hang it up! If you can't stand brave on the front line, then run for the hills...You are blocking our view of the enemy!

DRM · 07-02-2009, 12:05 PM

With all due respect to both of you - I am aware of several private parks that have started up for well under $250k start-up cost. It can be done, and it HAS been done.

k9crazy · 07-02-2009, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRM

With all due respect to both of you - I am aware of several private parts that have started up for well under $250k start-up cost. It can be done, and it HAS been done.

I appreciate your position, and I know that there have been other parks started for relatively small amounts of money. However, the sustainability (finacially, legally, and environmentally) are suspect, IMHO. Frankly, I don't think that SFWDA would do something like that lightly and would need to make it iron clad and bullet proof from organizations like TU.

bonepony10 · 07-02-2009, 12:41 PM

How about something else as an option?.....NOT to replace the fight to reopen Tellico, but as a place to ride UNTIL WE WIN that fight. My club www.bigsouthforkoffroad.com has the authorization to cut new trails in the www.Brimstonerecreation.com OHV park. There is over 19,000 acres available. I posted a thread about it in the Southeast forum:

/forum/usa-southeast/800449-everyone-check-out-lets-ride.html

Anyone wanting to help with the opening of new trails, is welcome to contact us. There is unbelievable potential there, but we are a small club with limited means and personnel. I welcome some of you to come see this area, and a few of the places we are planning to cut and open in the near future.

I hope this was helpful

07-01-2009, 05:37 AM	#1 (permalink)
k9crazy Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Member # 92338 Posts: 412	Tellico update 7-1-09 The waiting time for us to file suit has expired (it was a bit extended because we needed to address a few additional agencies and this set us back 2 weeks), so we can file at any time we wish. As of now, the FS has not responded to SFWDA's NOI to sue under the CWA. We are not discouraged by this, and in fact do not want the FS to rush their analysis. The best thing that can happen (short of a complete change in heart and reopening the area with no changes) is that they decide that they need to do more research based on our work. We believe that the work that our members and donors paid for in the Caliber Report and EA Comments is helping us to solidify our stance that the area can be maintained and should be reopened. On the advice of our legal team, we are not filing suit right now and will wait until we hear from the FS. This could either be with a decision or some other communication in response to our NOI. We will, however, continue to travel to DC to talk with our elected officials. We will also continue to work with our attorneys, BRC, and United on the strategy we will follow when the time comes and a decision is made. In addition, we are in the process of requesting some additional information from the FS to further explore the actions the FS has taken at Tellico. This is done through a Freedom of Information Act Request and is a formal way to make sure that the government is giving us all the information we need to build our case. As far as funding goes, so far we’ve raised about 16% of the money we anticipate needing to fight this fight. Funds have been spent on the Caliber Report, fronting money for T-shirts and other fundraising items and paying the lawyers. Finally, we now have a PR person within the organization that is going to be publishing updates to our members on the SFWDA forum (and I will cross post on other forums) on a regular basis. While things are slow, it will be every 2 weeks to a month. When we hear from the FS and activities pick up, it will be more often. I hope that this answers many of the questions that are out there, but if not, please feel free to ask questions on this thread and I will do what I can to answer or find the answers. As always, your support is appreciated!

07-01-2009, 05:42 AM	#2 (permalink)
DRM Super Moderator Join Date: Feb 2000 Member # 8 Location: Spring Hill, TN Posts: 35,021 Blog Entries: 1	THANK YOU for the update. __________________ >David > 4x4Spot.com >It only hurts the first* time you agree with me...* >"A little nonsense now and then is cherished by the wisest men."

07-01-2009, 06:29 AM	#4 (permalink)
McCracken Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Member # 41137 Location: In the hills of Western North Carolina Posts: 2,251 Blog Entries: 1	Thanks for the heads up Heather. I look forward to John's posts and updates. __________________ [QUOTE=climbit;14733286]you guys take this shit way too seriously.[/QUOTE]

07-01-2009, 06:51 AM	#5 (permalink)
Crawfords Campground Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Member # 105795 Posts: 237	Thanks for the post Heather...Anything we can do to assist in fund raising let me know. __________________ Crawford's Campground and Cabin Rentals www.crawfordsattellico.com 828-837-9077

07-01-2009, 07:18 AM	#6 (permalink)
Icemanii Registered User Join Date: Oct 2005 Member # 55458 Location: 48085 Posts: 461	Excellent update, thank you. __________________ Keep Public Lands open to the Public. GLFWDA Land Use Committee member.

07-01-2009, 12:28 PM	#7 (permalink)
Eventhough Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Member # 83791 Location: Seneca SC Posts: 120	Thank you Heather and SFWDA!!!

07-01-2009, 03:49 PM	#9 (permalink)
funkskunk Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Member # 20891 Location: WNC Posts: 302	Heather thanks for your work! Are there any ideas for another gathering to raise funds? __________________ Ironman4x4Fab.com Last edited by funkskunk; 07-01-2009 at 03:51 PM.

07-02-2009, 08:24 AM	#13 (permalink)
navy-jeepster Registered User Join Date: Oct 2005 Member # 55622 Location: Hanford, Ca Posts: 957	A thing to remember before posting something negative here, is that the anti-access/recreation crowd watches these forums. They like to see the seperation amoungst us, as they know if they can divide us, they can conquer us. The legal team will keep things close to heart, as we would not want to let our plan be fully known prior to the right moment. When you sue, you pretty much put all your marbles on the table for the other guys to see, and if everything is not lined up, you increase your chance of loosing. Also, as the forest service is a government branch, they move slow, very slow, and have been under some very drastic budget cuts over the years. I am sure they are working on the information provided by SFWDA within the boundries that they have to follow. They are doing good work to reopen Tellico. I know for those that want to wheel, it is not fast enough. One of my local areas is closed also, and we are working issues to reopen it. Been closed for over a year now. Thanks to those working on Tellico. Please support them. Todd __________________ [COLOR="Blue"][SIZE="4"]BlueRibbon Coalition BOD and Life Member[/SIZE][/COLOR] [URL="http://www.accessarmy.com"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="5"][COLOR="Red"]www.accessarmy.com[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/URL] Cal4Wheel Life Member Access Army Air Warrior Sponsored by: [URL="http://www.raceline.com"]Raceline Wheels[/URL], [URL="http://www.currieenterprises.com/"]http://www.currieenterprises.com/[/URL] BFG, ARB, Advance Adapters, Hi Lift Jack, Rocky Trail Outfitters, Camel4x4.

07-02-2009, 10:12 AM	#16 (permalink)
GubNi Rock God Join Date: Jan 2004 Member # 25927 Location: Northeast TN Posts: 2,171	16%??? I've donated over $100 and know many others that have. How much is this going to cost? __________________ Dana 60 or 14 bolt disk brake kits $315 shipped --> click here Dana 70 kits $300 --> click here . . Sterling 10.25 kits $390 --> click here Dana 60 front 3/4 ton kits $350--> click here

07-02-2009, 10:25 AM	#18 (permalink)
GubNi Rock God Join Date: Jan 2004 Member # 25927 Location: Northeast TN Posts: 2,171	I am surprised you haven't gotten over $250,000. How much did the adopt a trout thing bring in? __________________ Dana 60 or 14 bolt disk brake kits $315 shipped --> click here Dana 70 kits $300 --> click here . . Sterling 10.25 kits $390 --> click here Dana 60 front 3/4 ton kits $350--> click here

07-02-2009, 11:55 AM	#21 (permalink)
k9crazy Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Member # 92338 Posts: 412	The answer to opening their own area with $250K is probably not. For the sake of argument, let's say that they need half of the acreage of Tellico...that's about 2500 acres. Even at only $500 an acre, that's $1.25 million dollars. And that doesn't include trail building (the right way) etc. $250K won't get you a 5 acre lot these days.

07-02-2009, 12:01 PM	#22 (permalink)
Crawfords Campground Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Member # 105795 Posts: 237	I am in business too, and I can say it will be a fools bet to invest in an off road park anywhere in the South East if we lose the fight for Tellico OHV. People, this fight is much bigger than Tellico. Do you honestly think that a private park is safe. I have access to about 200 acres just up the road from the campground that some investors were thinking of opening a small off road area when Tellico closed up. The investment is huge when you plug in the cost of the land, Maintenance, INSURANCE and all of the agencies you have to go through to develop an area. The developing the area thing is a scary thought, since if you are going to try to create a legit buisness then you have to have permits, engineering, sight plan, silt protection and maintenance plan. $250,000 is just what you may need to maybe purchase some land. Take a look at the Tellico OHV projected maintenance plan as an example. In regards to the above information and regulation, how much maintenance do you think you could pay for or be willing to. Why do you think the private parks out there charge the big fees. How many of those parks do you think are actually functioning on luck? Of course we can just carve out a bunch of trails in the woods and hope to re coop the investment before the EPA comes in and shuts us down, imposes a daily fine of $5000 per day to repair the issues or someone stubs their toe, hires The law Firm of Sue,Them & How and takes you to the cleaners. This fight with Tellico is life changing...we lose this one, hang it up! If you can't stand brave on the front line, then run for the hills...You are blocking our view of the enemy! __________________ Crawford's Campground and Cabin Rentals www.crawfordsattellico.com 828-837-9077

07-02-2009, 12:05 PM	#23 (permalink)
DRM Super Moderator Join Date: Feb 2000 Member # 8 Location: Spring Hill, TN Posts: 35,021 Blog Entries: 1	With all due respect to both of you - I am aware of several private parks that have started up for well under $250k start-up cost. It can be done, and it HAS been done. __________________ >David > 4x4Spot.com >It only hurts the first* time you agree with me...* >"A little nonsense now and then is cherished by the wisest men." Last edited by DRM; 07-02-2009 at 12:27 PM.

07-02-2009, 12:41 PM	#25 (permalink)
bonepony10 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2008 Member # 125559 Location: Knoxvegas, TN Posts: 904	How about something else as an option?.....NOT to replace the fight to reopen Tellico, but as a place to ride UNTIL WE WIN that fight. My club www.bigsouthforkoffroad.com has the authorization to cut new trails in the www.Brimstonerecreation.com OHV park. There is over 19,000 acres available. I posted a thread about it in the Southeast forum: /forum/usa-southeast/800449-everyone-check-out-lets-ride.html Anyone wanting to help with the opening of new trails, is welcome to contact us. There is unbelievable potential there, but we are a small club with limited means and personnel. I welcome some of you to come see this area, and a few of the places we are planning to cut and open in the near future. I hope this was helpful Last edited by DRM; 07-02-2009 at 01:49 PM.

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