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Old 02-27-2011, 09:15 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Tellico Update 02/27/11

Tellico OHV is Closed!
I took the family through there yesterday on our way to Tellico Plains to have lunch. We got to see the american dream in motion. All that new underground utilities and advertised realestate start our trip on the way to Allen Gap. We observed happy squirrels and birds of all species living together on the natural slope and grassy hillside that used to be an environmental destruction staging area. After passing that point we got to see breathtaking million dollar realestate views left by the methodical deforestation of the mountain side up to Trail Upper #2. After catching our breath we got to travel the dirt road of what was that abomination Trail #2until it was met with trees covering and brush blocking the road at the FS jurisdiction. You could see Lake Hiawassee from up there. I have to note the wonderful effort the FS took with the silt flowing down the mountain like lava towards Tipton Creek and the silt fences were great as well. These time tested primitive silt fences of piled brush and debris will definitely stop any errosion. I'm surprised that I haven't seen the DOT, Commercial and Residential construction companies using this technique. It has to be better than any of those as stopping silt from entering the waterways is FS priority#1. We continued further to witness all of the slop created by the FS "Fixing" that horrible trail #4. I think they did a wonderful job creating a place for the protected wild hog population to protect their sensitive skin from that sun. This area now provides mud in those times of drought by covering all of those springs. The rest of trail one is perfect as it was in those old days just past the switch backs. I'm sure the silt from that area couldn't possibly hurt any living creature. Soon from this point our family vehicle stops vibrating and is now on environmentally friendly black top and we are so happy it rained the day before to wash off all that petroleum residue for us. The creeks and streams just gleemed in the sunlight with all the bright colors of the rainbow. Then we cross the State Line into Tennessee where we just stood in amazement viewing all of those empty great reconstructed large $20 per night campsites. I have to say I was never more pround to be an American to see my tax dollars so well spent. In a time where we are all struggling and seeing our tax dollars thrown into the wind. It just brought a tear to my eye to see that the FS just doesn't want to participate in the waste. They see that every penny of my taxes goes to making sure that they justify there larger than private sector salaries and retirement plans remain a testimate to the fortitude of the will of some. I couldn't be more pleased! Just from this job alone they deserve that break in those districts until 11am everyday. I say have another cup a joe on me guys and gals. Why get dirty before lunch!
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Old 02-27-2011, 01:51 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Old 02-27-2011, 03:02 PM   #3 (permalink)
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All that time, money, and energy put in by so many wasted by both the FS and BRC and Southern. BRC and Southern just kept asking for money and manpower and when they got it they just sat back and laughed. Now that the FS got Tellico shut down, where do they stop? What's next? BRC and Southern both should have to explain what they have done with everything we've given to the Tellico fund. This flat out sucks.
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Old 02-27-2011, 06:25 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I think we have taken it in the shooter on this one.

One thing I don't understand is who is the forest service accountable to?

At what level does someone have to be voted out of office for a change in the forest sevice to take place, if that can be done at all.
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Old 02-28-2011, 12:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Alabamatoy View Post
...there is some legal stuff going on that you would probably like very much. But Im not authorized to tell the story....come to the meetings and you can hear for yourself.
Oooooh, Déjà vu...
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Old 02-28-2011, 05:30 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Alabamatoy View Post
You have no idea what you are talking about. Lawyers are expensive, and there is some really interesting shit happening now on the legal front.

Is Tellico OHV area going to be re-opened? I seriously doubt it. But there is some legal stuff going on that you would probably like very much. But Im not authorized to tell the story....come to the meetings and you can hear for yourself.

http://www.sfwda.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=427

I aint laughing about donation money, and as a working member of SFWDA and a life member of BRC, I dont appreciate your accusation that Im somehow doing something fraudlent with the donations. My personal ethics are very important to me, and I am very willing to defend myself against such libelous accusations.

Sleep well.....
Yeah we have been hearing this same story for way too long now. The same old we are doing some great things (but we can't tell you what they are yet). Please send more money so that we can continue to do great things that we can't tell you about. The only thing I KNOW is that Tellico is GONE and the money sent to protect it did not.

I cannot attend the meetings as they are two states away and if you had not noticed, we are in a recession right now. Money does not grow on trees. Even more reason to be pissed about what all our money has done and where it is.

On a side note, I never once mentioned you personally as I have no idea who you are. If you wish to take it out of context and accept it as personal then that is on you.

I was speaking as a pissed off person that will never be able to enjoy a wonderful place again because the powers that be decided it so and the ones that said they would protect it did not.
Robbie

PS I will sleep well and wish you the same. If you are ever in my neighborhood stop in and there is a with your name on it. Hope to see you on the trails.
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Old 02-28-2011, 05:48 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Just thought I would share with you all some news. It is interesting you note the destruction related to the obliteration project. I am sure you are aware of the NEPA based lawsuit SFWDA and Blue Ribbon has filed and is working through the court system. SFWDA and attorneys received the record from the FS about a month ago and have been reviewing the contents.

In addition to this action on January 25, 2011 SFWDA filed a NOI under the CWA notifying the FS of an impending Clean Water Act third party lawsuit for not obtaining the appropriate requisite permits and increasing the potential damage to Water Quality by executing the "Trail Obliteration" project. This action was taken by SFWDA only. This started the clock ticking with a 60 day notice such that we can file a CWA lawsuit when this notice expires.

If you would like a copy of the NOI email me and I will send you one. SFWDA continues to represent sustainable OHV recreation and is taking steps to ensure that the FS does not cause more harm due to their willful intent to circumvent the permit requirements in an act of haste to remove the trails.

Director of Conservation and Land Use, SFWDA
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Old 02-28-2011, 06:15 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Excellent. I hope you guys burn them a new one.
Good Luck
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Old 02-28-2011, 07:24 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by YellowjeepCj View Post
Just thought I would share with you all some news. It is interesting you note the destruction related to the obliteration project. I am sure you are aware of the NEPA based lawsuit SFWDA and Blue Ribbon has filed and is working through the court system. SFWDA and attorneys received the record from the FS about a month ago and have been reviewing the contents.

In addition to this action on January 25, 2011 SFWDA filed a NOI under the CWA notifying the FS of an impending Clean Water Act third party lawsuit for not obtaining the appropriate requisite permits and increasing the potential damage to Water Quality by executing the "Trail Obliteration" project. This action was taken by SFWDA only. This started the clock ticking with a 60 day notice such that we can file a CWA lawsuit when this notice expires.

If you would like a copy of the NOI email me and I will send you one. SFWDA continues to represent sustainable OHV recreation and is taking steps to ensure that the FS does not cause more harm due to their willful intent to circumvent the permit requirements in an act of haste to remove the trails.

Director of Conservation and Land Use, SFWDA

I know how much time, personal money and effort you have in this cause....let me know if I can help.
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Old 02-28-2011, 07:35 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Thanks. This last action is all SFWDA. I am helping and we are trying to make something happen. Will let you know.
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:20 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Thanks. This last action is all SFWDA. I am helping and we are trying to make something happen. Will let you know.
Thanks for the update. Its good to hear that things are still moving forward.
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:32 AM   #12 (permalink)
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A successful judgment in an appeal based solely on a flawed NEPA process often just results in an agency revisiting the rule it failed to adhere to, correcting its clerical error and going forward with its original proposed solution.

In order to intercede in a productive manner that has hope of bringing about the desired permanent results, an appeal must speak to NEPA, issues outside of NEPA such as those defined by the Administrative Procedures Act and address specific scientific faults in the analysis.

In other words, you must find issue with and challenge the analysis process used, the resulting data and scientific facts that lead to the agency’s proposed solution that is being appealed, not just technicalities in execution of NEPA guidelines.

Good luck, it sure would be nice to have a win here and get back all that's been lost.
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:36 AM   #13 (permalink)
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My biggest issue with this whole situation from the get-go is that SFWDA does not have a good PR program. All I and others have seen is just wait, can't tell you and send us some money or come to a meeting and then we may tell you something in hopes that you join SFWDA. I can tell you from my many years as a detective that people talk. They talk more if it is a secret. So, if SFWDA truely believes that the information they are letting out in these meetings are of any great importance then they are sadly mistaken. If they are releasing sensitive material in these meetings then god help us. I can tell you if it has been spoken in a meeting the FS, TU and or SELC knows about it! So, why not tell the masses the information that is being released at the meetings? I personally support SFWDA and have always had an issue with this. If you want peoples support you got to give them something for their money. Even Sally Struthers gives you a picture of a kid and tells you what they are doing to help each month and how the child is doing. I feel that giving information to people outside of the SFWDA organization is the right thing to do if you expect them to be involved $$$$$.
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Old 03-02-2011, 12:04 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Crawfords Campground View Post
My biggest issue with this whole situation from the get-go is that SFWDA does not have a good PR program. All I and others have seen is just wait, can't tell you and send us some money or come to a meeting and then we may tell you something in hopes that you join SFWDA. I can tell you from my many years as a detective that people talk. They talk more if it is a secret. So, if SFWDA truely believes that the information they are letting out in these meetings are of any great importance then they are sadly mistaken. If they are releasing sensitive material in these meetings then god help us. I can tell you if it has been spoken in a meeting the FS, TU and or SELC knows about it! So, why not tell the masses the information that is being released at the meetings? I personally support SFWDA and have always had an issue with this. If you want peoples support you got to give them something for their money. Even Sally Struthers gives you a picture of a kid and tells you what they are doing to help each month and how the child is doing. I feel that giving information to people outside of the SFWDA organization is the right thing to do if you expect them to be involved $$$$$.
So simple, yet some people just don't get it. And yes, I understand that some info needs to remain private if lawsuits are involved, but i stopped giving money to "just wait" people long ago...
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:29 PM   #15 (permalink)
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RedneckYJ, I trust you're not a member of BRC or Southern? Or at least haven't had a chance to keep up with all the magazine articles and such about BRC's role (and Southern) in the Tellico battle? It's mentioned (the current status of the lawsuit we're still in) every month in the BRC magazine.

It's a big mistake to get on Pirate and start up something when you don't have the facts or haven't done the homework -- well, let me say that this way: it's a big mistake to take a rant or a vent and start putting names and organizations to it when you don't know the full story. Hell, we all vent and rant on Pirate; but it needs to be factual and accurate if names are mentioned. That's the right thing to do.

BRC still has a legal action going and will be in court again April 15th (tax day) as it stands right now. Southern is still fighting. There is a lot to this and WE have not given up yet. Not sure why you have?

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Old 03-02-2011, 11:14 PM   #16 (permalink)
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What is the plan here?
The trails are gone.
Maybe set up other trails if the lawsuit is won?
Or is this more about drawing the line in the sand?
Glad I was able to run Tellico before it was closed.
I still say if the people of Murphy would have stood up this would have never happen.
You have to have local support.
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Old 03-03-2011, 08:53 PM   #17 (permalink)
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A successful judgment in an appeal based solely on a flawed NEPA process often just results in an agency revisiting the rule it failed to adhere to, correcting its clerical error and going forward with its original proposed solution.

In order to intercede in a productive manner that has hope of bringing about the desired permanent results, an appeal must speak to NEPA, issues outside of NEPA such as those defined by the Administrative Procedures Act and address specific scientific faults in the analysis.

In other words, you must find issue with and challenge the analysis process used, the resulting data and scientific facts that lead to the agency’s proposed solution that is being appealed, not just technicalities in execution of NEPA guidelines.

Good luck, it sure would be nice to have a win here and get back all that's been lost.
The NEPA action is underway and in the court system now BRC and SFWDA are carrying the flag on this one.

I have attached the NOI filed 1/25/11 by SFWDA. This is the beginning of a court action under the Clean Water Act. These third party actions can be very powerful.

Quote:
All that time, money, and energy put in by so many wasted by both the FS and BRC and Southern. BRC and Southern just kept asking for money and manpower and when they got it they just sat back and laughed. Now that the FS got Tellico shut down, where do they stop? What's next? BRC and Southern both should have to explain what they have done with everything we've given to the Tellico fund. This flat out sucks.
Robbie
Robbie, I am sorry you feel this way. let me try to answer some of your concerns. You are concerned about the Rescue Tellico fund monies. First, let me say some of the most accountable and prudent men with financial knowledge manage these monies. They are very careful how they are spent. Money from this fund has been used and continues to be used to fund and support building the case and paying for the court actions on our behalf to argue the decision made by the FS. Anytime you argue with the government it is expensive. Especially in an area that is technical in nature. Funds have been used to hire an engineering firm to develop a report and assessment of the trail conditions and make recommendations. This was used to build part of the case to file suit. Money has been used to pay for legal assistance to develop the filing, briefs and statements, Lawyers to participate in mediation, conference calls and strategy planning discussions, develop and file NOI's such as the one attached (two of these have been filed), hire certified sediment and erosion field inspector to make inspection of the trail obliteration work, as well as other associated costs for postage and so on. Amazingly, the fund has held it's own pretty well all because of generous donations from people like you.

It is important to realize every time an action is filed or a motion is presented ten's of thousands of dollars are expended in legal maneuvering. Therefore, it is important for the off road community to respond. It is also fair for the OHV community to expect to be informed of what is going on. When we begin to depose the FS and go into Court for the trial the expenses are certain to increase. We will be there soon with the NEPA suit. As far as the CWA Third Party suit we can't take action until the 60 day notice expires (on or about March 25, 2011) but we can file anytime after this date. These decisions are not taken lightly and we have to weigh the pros and cons of the actions as they are expensive. I hope this answers some of your concerns.

Director of Land Use and Conservation, SFWDA Hope to see you in Tracy City March 5.
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Old 03-03-2011, 09:08 PM   #18 (permalink)
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What is the plan here?
The trails are gone.
Maybe set up other trails if the lawsuit is won?
Or is this more about drawing the line in the sand?
Glad I was able to run Tellico before it was closed.
I still say if the people of Murphy would have stood up this would have never happen.
You have to have local support.
What is the Plan?
Under the NEPA suit the idea is to re-dress the technical issues under which the trails were closed. Also may achieve a possible settlement to establish trails in another part of the forest.

Under a CWA suit the idea is to make sure long term damages to the water resources have not been done or caused to occur in the future due to the Obliteration project. If so, may get a decision to restore the system. Also, penal action for not following protocol and getting appropriate permits, such as fines for the violations.

I could not post the Citizen Suit letter since it is the wrong file type.
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Old 03-04-2011, 03:37 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Are the local people going to support this?
What about the Mayor of Murphy and those who own buisnesses in Murphy and surrounding areas?
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:35 PM   #20 (permalink)
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It seams to me that the people of Murphy and the surrounding area missed the opportunity to send a message when they did not vote Congressman Schuluer out of office for his stance on the FS action. I have no idea if the business community supports these actions. If they do they can donate to the Recue Tellico fund to keep it moving. I would hope they would be supportive as the closure has cost the local economy more than was projected and I think the business community is feeling the loss. Any help is appreciated.
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Old 03-04-2011, 08:50 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Actually,, Heath Shluer lost in Cherokee County and Clay County, but won enough of the other counties of District 11 to be re-elected (unfortunately).
Without a doubt,, this closure has had an adverse affect on the local economy.
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Old 03-04-2011, 10:20 PM   #22 (permalink)
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This makes me ill. So are they gonna start selling some of the property for folks to put up their McMansions?
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Old 03-06-2011, 02:57 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawfords Campground
My biggest issue with this whole situation from the get-go is that SFWDA does not have a good PR program. All I and others have seen is just wait, can't tell you and send us some money or come to a meeting and then we may tell you something in hopes that you join SFWDA. I can tell you from my many years as a detective that people talk. They talk more if it is a secret. So, if SFWDA truely believes that the information they are letting out in these meetings are of any great importance then they are sadly mistaken. If they are releasing sensitive material in these meetings then god help us. I can tell you if it has been spoken in a meeting the FS, TU and or SELC knows about it! So, why not tell the masses the information that is being released at the meetings? I personally support SFWDA and have always had an issue with this. If you want peoples support you got to give them something for their money. Even Sally Struthers gives you a picture of a kid and tells you what they are doing to help each month and how the child is doing. I feel that giving information to people outside of the SFWDA organization is the right thing to do if you expect them to be involved $$$$$.

This. This is what I was saying but was obviously heated and came out as an attack against many. Not my intention and I apologize for the way it was worded but not for the point.The public sees it as I worded it above because the organizations involved keep the information to themselves and their meeting attending members. The public makes assumptions based on no information provided and it scares them away from giving. They too don't want to give and not know what is happening. They see money provided and the cause for the money destroyed. They don't know about the information put in the publications Mr. Del speaks of. Hell, I know multiple people in our wheeling community who don't even have internet access, so they don't even have access to the minute information we have. You should hear their assumptions as to what is going on.LOL.


Quote:
Originally Posted by YellowjeepCj
The NEPA action is underway and in the court system now BRC and SFWDA are carrying the flag on this one.

I have attached the NOI filed 1/25/11 by SFWDA. This is the beginning of a court action under the Clean Water Act. These third party actions can be very powerful.



Robbie, I am sorry you feel this way. let me try to answer some of your concerns. You are concerned about the Rescue Tellico fund monies. First, let me say some of the most accountable and prudent men with financial knowledge manage these monies. They are very careful how they are spent. Money from this fund has been used and continues to be used to fund and support building the case and paying for the court actions on our behalf to argue the decision made by the FS. Anytime you argue with the government it is expensive. Especially in an area that is technical in nature. Funds have been used to hire an engineering firm to develop a report and assessment of the trail conditions and make recommendations. This was used to build part of the case to file suit. Money has been used to pay for legal assistance to develop the filing, briefs and statements, Lawyers to participate in mediation, conference calls and strategy planning discussions, develop and file NOI's such as the one attached (two of these have been filed), hire certified sediment and erosion field inspector to make inspection of the trail obliteration work, as well as other associated costs for postage and so on. Amazingly, the fund has held it's own pretty well all because of generous donations from people like you.

It is important to realize every time an action is filed or a motion is presented ten's of thousands of dollars are expended in legal maneuvering. Therefore, it is important for the off road community to respond. It is also fair for the OHV community to expect to be informed of what is going on. When we begin to depose the FS and go into Court for the trial the expenses are certain to increase. We will be there soon with the NEPA suit. As far as the CWA Third Party suit we can't take action until the 60 day notice expires (on or about March 25, 2011) but we can file anytime after this date. These decisions are not taken lightly and we have to weigh the pros and cons of the actions as they are expensive. I hope this answers some of your concerns.

Director of Land Use and Conservation, SFWDA Hope to see you in Tracy City March 5.

This is the what the public should be hearing all along instead of send money and we are doing great things but we can't tell you about them unless you drive to our meetings. I do commend you for answering me with dignity and direct answers. Thank you. I have always stood behind land use programs and continue to do so, but the way the Tellico situation was handled and continues to be handled IN THE PUBLICS EYE is not what it should be. Keeping secrets and asking for more does not work. People give to causes they believe in so long as they continue to be informed as to where their money is going. This was my point all along but as I said was worded terribly and I apologize for that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeepndel
RedneckYJ, I trust you're not a member of BRC or Southern? Or at least haven't had a chance to keep up with all the magazine articles and such about BRC's role (and Southern) in the Tellico battle? It's mentioned (the current status of the lawsuit we're still in) every month in the BRC magazine.

It's a big mistake to get on Pirate and start up something when you don't have the facts or haven't done the homework -- well, let me say that this way: it's a big mistake to take a rant or a vent and start putting names and organizations to it when you don't know the full story. Hell, we all vent and rant on Pirate; but it needs to be factual and accurate if names are mentioned. That's the right thing to do.

BRC still has a legal action going and will be in court again April 15th (tax day) as it stands right now. Southern is still fighting. There is a lot to this and WE have not given up yet. Not sure why you have?

Del

First read above as I did apologize for my wording as I was upset.

Now on to the legal matter. TELLICO as we know it and have known it is GONE. It will not return. It has been DESTROYED and all we are fighting for now is the crumbs from the Forest Services table. The most we will get is another part of the forest for our use years down the road.

My point was this: We were asked to donate money and time to write letters to our congressmen and senators to SAVE TELLICO. We did this, despite the continued secrecy from the organizations involved, and we LOST TELLICO. On top of that we were continuously asked to keep donating without being informed of what was going on. We were only told time after time that they were doing great things but had to keep it a secret. I for one don't just continue to throw money at something without knowing where or what it is doing. Times are too tough at home to keep doing this. Had I(I'm speaking for myself here, but assume that others agree as I have had this conversation with many before) been kept in the loop so to speak I probably would have continued to donate. You don't go to Wal-Mart and hand them money for nothing, in this situation we were at the very least paying for information.This was the point I was trying to get at.
I apologize to any whose feelings got hurt as this was not my intention.
We are all on the same team
Thanks
Robbie

PS: Hope to see you guys on the trail. If you see me feel free to come say hi and we can have this conversation in person. One only grows intellectually by being challenged mentally.

Last edited by RedneckYJ; 03-06-2011 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 03-06-2011, 04:40 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Robbie:

No need to apologize to me. I am new at this and just trying to get the word out. Thanks for your consideration. You can always email me for more information any time. If I know I will tell you, if I don't I will try to find out.
thanks
Flint
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Old 03-06-2011, 04:47 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I sincerely appreciate that and if you were to ever need an extra set of hands to help out then feel free to contact me. I wish you nothing but fair wishes with your future endeavors.
Thanks
Robbie
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