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Old 12-17-2003, 11:46 AM   #1 (permalink)
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spec differences between pipe and tubing

I know, I know, blah blah blah, and I DID SEARCH I personally know the differences, but this came up on another board. I am looking for a particular post in regards to the specs and differences between the 2. I have searched my ass off for 2 hours and cant find it. There was the usual argument about which is better/stronger and I remember some engineer finally posted onto the board touting he is sick of people bashing pipe and he posted all of the psi specs on strength etc. I'm looking for that post.....so if anyone remembers where it was, that would be great. just wanna get ahold of the numbers and the comparisions that he posted
-thanks

oh, and since my thing says i'm still a newb....
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Old 12-17-2003, 11:48 AM   #2 (permalink)
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oh wait, i was upgraded to wheeler today....but for that mistake, i deserve to get flamed as a newbie..its ok, i got flame retardant underwear on today.
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Old 12-17-2003, 12:21 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Not really what you are asking but is related to the topic.
I can't remember what the source (WCMA) is, but here's what I have:

If someone wants, I can e-mail them this in .PDF form and they can link it. (I suck at the internet)


WCMA APPENDIX 1 - ROLL CAGE SPECIFICATIONS
– STUDDED CLASS
1 - General Requirements
a. All vehicles, regardless of date of manufacture, must be fitted with a roll cage conforming to the following specifications:

b. The top of the roll bar shall be at least 5.08 cm (2") above the top of the competitors helmet or as close to the roof as possible. The top of the roll bar shall be no more than 25.4 cm (10") behind the competitor's helmet when the competitor is in the normal driving position.

c. It is highly recommended that any part of the roll cage structure which may be struck by the competitor's helmet in a serious impact be covered with a flameretardant energy absorbing material.

2 - Construction Materials
a. The main hoops and primary bracing should be constructed from round, mild steel, ERW or DOM type tubing. Chrome molly tubing such as 4130, may be used but is not recommended.

b. Aluminium and composite materials are prohibited construction materials for roll cage structures.

c. All cages must have a 0.476 cm (.1875") diameter inspection hole drilled in each main hoop.

d. Minimum tube size and wall thickness are as follows for vehicle weights including competitor:
Under 1500 lbs 3.49 cm X 0.24 cm (1.375" X .095")
Under 2500 lbs 3.81 cm X 0.24 cm (1.500" X .095") or 3.49 cm
X 0.30 cm (1.375" X .120")
Over 2500 lbs 3.81 cm X 0.30 cm (1.500" X .120") or 4.44 cm
X 0.24 cm (1.750" X .095")

3 - Fabrication
a. One continuous piece of tubing must be used for the main hoop. A similar piece shall be used for the other main hoop or hoops. The allowable cage configurations are:

A figure of each hoop configuration is provided to illustrate the acceptable basic configurations:

b. All bends must be smooth with no excessive evidence of crimping or any evidence of wall fracturing. All bars should start as close as possible to the floor of the vehicle and come as close as possible to the sides of the vehicle for maximum competitor protection. Construction guidelines for acceptable ovality and crimping will be:

Ovality: Maximum allowable ovality is 8% of the nominal pipe diameter. Ovality is measured as the variation between the maximum and the minimum dimension of the pipe in one location per figure 1.

Crimping: Crimping is measured per figure 2. The maximum allowable crimping is 3% of the nominal pipe dameter.

c. In the case of tube frame vehicles, the roll cage structure must be attached to the chassis with suitable webbing or gusseting to distribute loads over as wide an area as possible.

d. In the case of unit body vehicles, it is recommended procedure to attach the four ends of the main hoop tubes into L shaped plates at the junction of the floor and rocker panels rather than just to a plate on the floor. Additionally, it is highly recommended that all cages be tabbed into the basic body structure at least every 60.96 cm (24") or wherever possible.

4 - Bracing

a. In the case of the twin lateral hoop design, the front and rear hoops shall be joined by a piece of equal dimensioned tubing on each side.

b. Rear stays must attach to the rear hoop no lower than 20.32 cm (8") from the top of the hoop and at an angle no steeper than 35 degrees from vertical. These rear stays must be made from a straight piece of tubing and be attached to a suitably stiff or reinforced area. A diagonal brace must be fitted from near the top of the hoop to a position near the opposite corner of the hoop. This brace must be as straight as possible.

c. Side protection bars must be attached between the front and rear hoops on both sides of the vehicle. These bars should be attached to the front hoop no higher than 30.48 cm (12") off the floor and on the rear hoop and no higher than 60.96 cm (24") off the floor. The competitor's side must be fitted with at least two side protection bars which follow as closely as possible the outline of the door. NASCAR style multiple anti-intrusion bars are highly recommended.

d. A bar joining the two outer members of the front hoop near steering column level is required.

5 - Mounting Plates

a. The four lower hoop tubes must be connected to plates welded or bolted to the frame or floor of the vehicle.
b. On unit body vehicles, all plates shall be at least 129 square cm (20 square") in area. The minimum thickness of these plates shall be 0.20 cm (.080") in the case of weld on plates and .1875 for bolt on types. Bolt on types shall have a minimum of three 0.952 cm (.375") grade 5 bolts fastening each plate and must have a backup plate of equal size and thickness on the other side of the floor with the bolts passing through both plates and the floor.

c. Vehicles with frame type construction must use plates of at least 51.6 square cm (8 square") area and .1875 thickness regardless of whether they are bolted or welded.

6 - Welding

a. It is essential that all welding be of the highest possible quality. Slag welds, poor arc and gas welds are NOT acceptable. It is highly recommended that only certified people carry out arc welding on roll cages. TIG or MIG are the preferred welding processes. Cages with unacceptable welding will not be passed.

7 - Gusseting
a. It is important that loads be distributed over as wide an area as possible especially in the case of cages on space frame type vehicles. Gussets or tie-in tubes must be used at main tube junctions of the roll cage members. Gussets should also be used
when it is not possible to weld all around a tube because of body interference. Gusset thickness should be at least the same as the tubing wall thickness they are attached to. Each gusset shall extend in length for a minimum of one pipe diameter in both directions from the centre point of the gusset.

8 - Removable Type Cages

a. Removable roll cages may be fitted to vehicles only if their construction and design allow them to meet the strength requirements of the designs above.

b. Where tubes join, a double shear type mating tab may be used. Where such a tab is used, the tube joining this tab shall have a small piece of tubing welded perpendicular to its length for the bolt to pass through to prevent crushing of the main tube. Tabs shall be at least 3.49 cm (1.375") wide and 0.476 cm (.1875") thick and must be welded to one of the main tubes. When single bolts are used to fasten tubes, they must be of at least 1.11 cm (.4375") diameter and grade 8 material.

c. Sliding tube type junctions may also be used if they meet the following criteria:
i. Wall thickness of the joining tube shall be a minimum of 0.30 cm (.120").
ii. Length of this tube shall be a minimum of 7.62 cm (3") on either side of the splice.

d. Attachment shall be made using two bolts on each side of the splice 90 degrees to each other passing straight through the tubing. Grade 5 bolts of at least 9.52 cm (.375") diameter shall be used here. Splicing tubes may be slid either inside the main tubing or over the outside.

e. Alternate joint designs may be approved at the discretion of the scrutineer.

f. Basic design and fabrication of removable type cages must conform to the specifications for non-removable type cages.

9 - Alternate Designs

a. Alternate cage designs may be approved by the scrutineer provided the competitor can produce stress analysis data from a certified engineer stating that the roll over structure is capable of withstanding the following loads applied simultaneously to
that structure:
1.5 G lateral
5.5 G fore/aft
7.5 G vertical

b. Calculations shall assume the all up race weight of the vehicle with competitor.
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Old 12-17-2003, 12:42 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Here's more of what I think you were looking for:

Product Definitions
Standard Pipe- is ordinarily used for low-pressure conveyance of air, gas, water, oil, or other fluids and for mechanical applications.

It is used primarily in
machinery, buildings, sprinkler systems, irrigation systems and water wells rather than in pipelines or utility distribution systems. It may carry fluids at elevated temperatures and pressures which are not subject to external heat applications. It is usually produced in standard diameters and wall thickness to ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials) specifications.

Applications Include:
Ammonia or Ice Machine Pipe Nipple Pipe
Pipe for Plating or Enameling Bomb Casing
Pipe for Rigid Conduit Pressure Piping
Distributor’s Pipe Pump Pipe
Driven Well Pipe Drive Pipe
Standard Pipe Coupling Stock Dry Kiln Pipe
Turbine Pump Pipe Water Well Casing
Water & Gas Service Pipe Furniture Pipe
Dual Stenciled Pipe Sold as Standard Pipe English Gas and Steam Pipe
Water Well Reamed and Drifted Pipe
Applications Exclude:
Conduit Tubing- EMT Water Main Pipe
Pipe for Structural Uses


Oil Country Tubular Goods ( OCTG ) – are pipe used in wells in oil and gas industries consisting of casing, tubing and drill pipe.

A. Casting- is the structural retainer for the walls of oil and gas wells and covers sizes 4.5 to 20 inches O.D. inclusive.
B. Tubing- is used within the casing to convey the oil or gas to the surface (ground level) and ordinarily includes sizes 1.050 to 4.5 inches O.D. inclusive.
C. Drill Pipe- is the pipe used to drill the well by transmitting power to a rotary drilling tool from the surface to below ground level. Normally covers sizes 2 3/8 to 6 5/8 inches O.D. inclusive.
Oil Country Tubular Goods are produced to API (American Petroleum Institute)

Specifications. There are also OCTG Specifications in ISO 9000.
Applications Include:
OCTG Coupling Stock Drill Pipe
Casing Tubing
Line Pipe- is used for transportation of oil, gas, or water generally in a pipeline of utility distribution system. It is produced to API (American Petroleum Institute)
and AWWA (American Water works Association) Specifications.
Applications Include:
Line Pipe Coupling Stock API Line Pipe
Dual and Triple Stenciled Pipe AWWA - Mill Type Pipe


Mechanical Tubing- is welded or seamless tubing produced in a large number of shapes of varied chemical composition in sizes 3/16 inch to 10 ¾ inches O.D. inclusive of carbon or alloy material. It is not normally produced to meet specification other than that required to meet the end use. It is produced to meet O.D. and decimal or metric wall thickness.
Applications Include:
Aircraft Tubing Furniture Tubing
Airframe Tubing Mechanical Tubing
Tubes for Bearing Precision Pump Tubes
Applications Exclude:
Structural Pipe and Tubing ( having
normal diameters and wall thickness)
Conduit Tubing- EMT
Pressure Tubing- is used to convey fluids at elevated temperatures or pressures, or both, and is suitable to be subjected to heat applications. It is produced to exact O.D. and decimal or metric wall thickness in sizes ½ inch to 6 inches O.D. inclusive, usually to standard
specifications such as ASTM.
Applications Include:
Air Heater Tubes Boiler tubes
Oil-Still Tubes Header Tubes
Pressure Tubing and Pipe Coupling Stock Heat Exchanger and Condenser Tubes



Grade Definitions
Carbon Steel- All ferrous materials other than alloy and stainless which are usefully
malleable and which contains by weight 2 percent or less carbon. (In
effect, all steels other than complying with the definition of alloy or
stainless.)
Note: In all carbon steels small quantities of certain residual elements, such as
copper, nickel, molybdenum, chromium, etc., are all unavoidably retained from raw
materials.
Alloy Steel- Steels not complying with the definition of stainless steel and containing by
weight one or more of the following elements in the proportion shown:
0.3 percent or more of Aluminum
0.0008 percent or more of Boron
0.3 percent or more of Chromium
0.3 percent or more of Cobalt
0.4 percent or more of Copper
0.4 percent or more of Lead
1.65 percent or more of Manganese
0.08 percent or more of Molybdenum
0.3 percent or more of Nickel
0.06 percent or more of Niobium
0.6 percent or more of Silicon
Stainless Steel- Alloy Steels containing by weight 1.2 percent or less carbon and
10.5 percent or more of chromium, with or without other elements
and a minimum of 50 percent iron.


Glossary of Terms
AGA- American Gas Associations.
AISI- American Iron and Steel Institute.
API- American Petroleum Institute.
.
ANSI- American National Standards Institute. Formerly the ASA- American Standard
Association.
ASME- American Society for Mechanical Engineers.
ASTM- American Society of Testing Materials.
AWWA- American Water Works Association.
Bales- Term associated with banded lifts of pipe.
Barlow’s Formula- An equation, which shows the relationship of internal pressure to
allowable stress, normal thickness and diameter.
Bevel- The angle formed between the prepared edge of the end of the pipe and a
plane perpendicular to the surface of the member. The standard bevel for line
pipe is 30 degrees to facilitate welding.
Billet- A solid semi-finished round or square product that has been hot-worked by
forging, rolling, or extrusion. For seamless tubular products, the billet is heated
and pierced to form a hollow tube.
Black Bare- Term associated with pipe surface whereby the pipe will not be coated with
mill oil spray and grease spots and cutting oil will not be removed.
Black Dry- Term associated with pipe surface whereby the pipe will not be coated with
mill spray oil and all grease spots and cutting oil will be removed.
Black Oiled- Term associated with pipe surface whereby material ordered in this
manner is protected with a varnish- type oil on the O.D. for temporary
corrosion protection during transit and short-term storage.
Bundles- Term associated with practice of packaging NSP 1-1/2 “ and smaller pipe.
Pieces per bundle vary depending upon size.
Burst Test- A destructive hydraulic test employed to determine actual yield and ultimate
strength of both seamless and welded pipe.


Buttweld Pipe- See Continuous Weld.
Chamfer- A beveled surface to eliminate an otherwise sharp corner.
Chemical Properties- Normally associated with a limited number of chemical elements;
however, depending upon the specification, practically a full
analysis may be required. Minimum or maximum limits are
established in Standards.
Cold Work- Deforming metal physically at a temperature lower than the recrystallization
temperature. Mechanical or hydraulic expansion employed to achieve higher
mechanical properties.
Conduit- Pipe serving as a duct for electrical wiring.
Coupling- Threaded sleeve used to connect two lengths of pipe.
Continuous Weld- In common usage, a phase for continuous butt-weld. Furnace-
welded pipe produced in continuous lengths from coiled skelp and
subsequently cut into individual lengths, having its longitudinal butt
joint forge welded by the mechanical pressure developed in rolling
the hot-formed skelp through a series of welding rolls.
Cut Lengths- Pipe cut to a specific length as ordered.
Die Stamping- Permanent marking placed on a pipe as required by some
specifications.
Double Extra Strong- Standard pipe weight designation (XXS). Sometimes described
as XXH (double extra heavy).
DRL- Double Random Length ( 35’ minimum average or as defined in specifications).
DSAW- Double Submerged Arc Weld.
Ductility- The ability of a material to deform plastically without fracturing, being
measured by elongation or reduction of area in a tensile test or by other means.

Eddy- Current Testing- Non-destructive testing method in which eddy-current flow is
induced in the test object. Changes in the flow caused by
variations in the object are reflected into a nearby coil or coils
for subsequent analysis by suitable instrumentation and
techniques.
ERW- Electric Resistance Weld. See High Frequency Welding.
EW- Electric Weld. See High Frequency Weld.
Elongation- In tensile testing, the increase in the gage length, measured after fracture
of the specimen within the gage length, usually expressed as a percentage
of the original gage length.
Expanded Pipe- Pipe which has been enlarged circumferentially by mechanical or
hydraulic pressure.
Extra Strong- Standard pipe weight designation (XS). Sometimes described as XH
(extra heavy).
Flattening Test- A quality test for pipe in which a specimen is flattened between
parallel plates that are close to a specific height.
Galvanization- Covering or iron or steel surfaces with a protective layer of zinc (weight
defined in specification).
High Frequency Welding- A technique employed in the manufacture of electric
resistance weld pipe. Typical radio frequency power for
welding is supplied at 450,000 cycles per second.
Hot Stamp- Permanent marking placed on pipe as employed by manufacturer or as
established by specification.
Hydrostatic Test- Normal mill test as required by specifications. The pipe ends are
sealed and high-pressure water is introduced to predetermined
pressures as required by specifications.
I.D.- Inside Diameter.
Impact Test- A test performed at a specified temperature (usually lower that ambient)
to determine the behavior of materials when subjected to high rates of
loading, usually bending, tension or torsion. The quantity measured is the
energy absorbed in breaking the specimen by a single blow, as in a
Charpy Test.
Ink Mark- Continuous printing identification associated with NPS 1-1/2 and smaller
pipe. Detail is normally limited to the trademark and “ Made in USA”.
Kip- A unit of weight equal to 1,000 pounds used to express dead weight.
Lifts- Term associated with separated segments of pipe (banded or unbanded for ease
of handling).
Magnetic Particle- One of several methods of non-destructive testing. A non-
destructive method of inspection for determining the existence
and extent of possible defects in ferromagnetic materials. Finely
divided magnetic particles, applied to the magnetized part, are
attracted to and outline the pattern of and magnetic leakage fields
created by discontinuities.
Magnetic Properties- The properties of a material that reveal it's elastic and inelastic
behavior where force is applied, thereby indicating its suitability
for mechanical application; for example, tensile strength,
elongation, hardness, and fatigue limit.
NPS- A dimensionless designator for such traditional terms as “ nominal diameter”,
“size”, and “nominal size”. Corresponds to actual outside diameter only in sizes
14 inches and over.
Normalizing- Heating a ferrous material to a suitable temperature above the
transformation range and then cooling in air to a temperature substantially
below the transformation range.
O.D.- Outside Diameter.
Oiled- See Black Oiled.
PE- Plain End.
Pickling- Pipe immersed into acid bath for removal of scale, oil, dirt, etc.
PSI- Pounds per square inch.
PSIG- Pounds per square inch gage.
R & D- Reamed and Drifted. Pipe commonly used in water wells which has a special,
heavy-duty coupling and a guaranteed I.D. clearance.
SC- Square cut plain end pipe.
Skelp- A piece or strip of metal produced to a suitable thickness, width and
configuration, from which welded pipe is made.
SMLS- Seamless.
SRL- Single Random Length ( 16-22 ft. for standard weight ASTM pipe or as defined in
specifications).
Stencil- Paint spray identification placed on pipe. Specification size, wall, grade, test
pressure, method of manufacture and normal mill characters and mill
identification are usually included; however, detail varies by specification.
“Country of Origin” is included.
Stretch Reduction- A technique employed in the manufacture of continuous weld pipe
and in certain instances in the manufacture of seamless and
electrical resistance weld pipe. It involves one or several “matter”
sizes which are stretched-reduced or rolled under tension through a
number of stands to achieve a variety of standard pipe diameters
and walls.
Strip- A sheet of metal in which the length is many times the width.
TBE- Threaded End Bolts.
Tensile Strength- In tensile testing, the ratio of maximum load to original cross-
sectional area. Also called ultimate strength. Usually expressed in
pounds per square inch.
TO- Threads Only.
Tube Round- See Billet.
Ultrasonic- An electronic method of nondestructive testing utilizing sound waves.
Yield Strength- The stress at which a material exhibits a specific deviation from
proportionality of stress and strain. An offset of 0.2% is used for many
metals including steels.
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Old 12-17-2003, 01:30 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Shit Silver, just use a club next time...
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Old 12-17-2003, 02:17 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by DemoMike
Shit Silver, just use a club next time...




I remember seeing that post but don't remember when/where. Sorry I'm so useless today.....
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Old 12-17-2003, 04:48 PM   #7 (permalink)
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There are dozens of different specs for pipe and they can be of
all kinds of alloys depending on application.

Same goes for tubing.

I remeber the post. The guy posted a pic of a big dock thing made out of pipe designed to withstand ship impacts.
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Old 12-17-2003, 10:48 PM   #8 (permalink)
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4RnrRick on the toy board is a mechanical Engineer, and crunched a bunch of numbers once for me on this topic. He might still have them lying around.
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Old 12-19-2003, 08:43 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I once asked, "why not pipe?"

I passed over some of the more colorful responses from the thread and have included [below] the two most informative posts.
Quote:
Originally posted by foley @ cowtownjeeps.com
go to www.matweb.com

Type in 1008 or 1010 in their search engine, and read up on the properties of low grade steel.

Then type in 1018 or 1020 and read up on higher carbon steels (the stuff that most DOM and ERW tubing (as opposed to pipe) is made out of. You'll notice that 1018 has about twice the yeild strength of 1008 or 1010.

ERW, HREW, DOM, etc are all processes. They are not what makes the tube weak or strong. The raw material does that, and Pipe doesn't hold a candle to tubing. Of course you can make pipe strong, you just have to use twice as much of it, which starts pushing that 2500 lb mark up near the 3000 pound.

After you get done with little bit of research, you can get a real eye opener on 4130 "chromium molybenum alloy" for extra credit. Double the strength of 1020, and 4x that of 1010

Will pipe work? Yeah, but the thing is that pipe has the same density as real tubing, but half the strength-weight ratio. It is not really any easier to work with than tubing, so pony up the cash and do it right, and you can keep your 2500# rig on its diet.
Quote:
Originally posted by foley @ cowtownjeeps.com
When you buy steel you need to go to a vendor that knows their ass from their ass from their elbow about steel. Metal Supermarkets in irving is one good one. Trident materials in richardson is another one. Normal DOM "rollcage tubing" is made of 1020 or 1018 steel. Like I said before, DOM is a process, you can get tubing made out of damn near anything (1008, 1010, or 1012 steel, copper, alum, titanium, cromo, etc) that is "DOM" you want to specify the type of material it's made from.

1018 and 1020 steels are good for vehicle work because they have about the best compromise of fatigue life and yield strength. Cromo has less fatigue life, which is why people's cages crack. Pipe has much more fatigue life, so it can be flexed more time's without cracking, but it also has very poor strength. I have a hand/hydraulic powered "pipe bender" from HF. If you bend a piece of pipe, then a piece of tubing in it, you can feel a significant difference in the strength of the tube based on how hard it is for the hydro jack to bend it.

1018 steel: Tensile Strength, Ultimate 440 MPa 63800 psi
Tensile Strength, Yield 370 MPa 53700 psi

In case you are not familiar with the lingo, Ultimate strength is the "breaking strength" Yield strength is the strength at which the material will start to break down, and you will see fisures in the surface and "necking" of the material's surface, and it will be permanently weakened. With 1008 you will have actually broken the material in half before it even starts to bend or "yield" with 1018.

All this for the same weight, and the same welding processes, etc work for both? Easy decision in my book.

Incidentally, it would be beneficial to compare "1018 cold drawn steel" to "1012 Hot rolled and formed" steel. 1012 is what the typical "farm supply" steel yard sells. it is similar in strength to the 1008, and not Nearly as clean to work with as cold rolled 1018 or 1020.

I hope some of this info helps. Next weeks lesson will be on work hardening, and why you should bend plate steel with your hydraulic press, not your rosebud torch and vice
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Old 12-19-2003, 10:03 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Check this out...

URL=http://www.emjmetals.com/emjonline/esl.exe?hactid=0&hacmid=1&hacmid=1&haclev=0&eslgrp =0&eslmtl=0&eslgrps=Tube%20%2B%20Pipe&eslmtls=Carb on&eslgrd=ROPS&eslm1=Chemistry&eslm2=Tensile&eslm3 =Yield&eslm4=Rockwell%20Hardness&eslcur=41&eslsz=6 5535&eslfid=0&eslfgrp=0&eslfmat=0&eslfgrd=0&eslfde sc=0&eslfdtxt=0&eslfsize=0&eslfsizes=0&eslfsp=0&es lftens=0&eslftrmt=0&eslfyeld=0&eslfelon=0&eslfspec =0&eslfbspc=0&eslfchm=0&eslfmech=0&eslfapps=0&eslf elon2in=0&eslfelon2pr=0&eslfelon8in=0&eslfrwhd=0&e slfbrhd=0&eslfreda=0&eslfizod=0&eslfform=0&eslftit le=0&eslfbdsg=0&eslfmcom=0&eslfchry=0&eslfchri=0&e slfvchr=0&eslfm90cb=0&eslfmach=0&eslfcspd=0&eslfwe ld=0&eslftols=0&eslfforg=0&eslfhdng=0&eslfhtrt=0&e slfcarb=0&eslfcorr=0&eslftest=0&eslfannl=0&eslfben d=0&eslfnorm=0&eslftchr=0&eslftemp=0&eslfpnch=0&es lfshfc=0&eslfrtsc=0&eslfstrl=0&eslfsalt=0&eslfshap es=0&eslfpnum=0&]ROPS tubing[/URL]
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Old 12-19-2003, 10:05 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Take two...


ROPS tubing
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Old 12-19-2003, 10:05 AM   #12 (permalink)
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A real world observation:

We saw a fairly lightly built Zuk in Parker this year. I think it had 31/32's and an exo made with pipe. We saw it later that evening, the exo caved in on the drivers side about 8-12 inches below where it used to be. The windshield and frame were toast. I suspect he either did an endo or came off a ledge that was a little too tall and went over forward. Even under a fairly light rig the pipe did not hold up well.
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Old 12-19-2003, 12:36 PM   #13 (permalink)
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with little or no crossbracing and triangulation in the design anything will cave in. i had a 1.75'' .120 wall DOM cage that folded in a backwards endo in big sluice. ive had a truggy with a 1.5ID schedule 40 cage thats been off ledges of 5-6 feet, fipped upside down 3 times and flopeed numerous that has a few small dents in the pipe, but no affect on the structural integrity...heres a pic of each, notice the difference in the designs(cross bracing tieing into the frame on the pipe)....

schedule40, you cant see it well, but there a V behind the seats:




DOM:

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Old 12-19-2003, 01:13 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Keep the pipe in the bathroom where it belongs.....
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Old 12-19-2003, 01:16 PM   #15 (permalink)
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This post? http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...threadid=12322
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Old 12-19-2003, 02:03 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Azrckcrawler
Keep the pipe in the bathroom where it belongs.....

Amazingly easy to post "pipe is bad" but it is going to be amazingly hard to prove it with empirical data.

BTW My bathroom is plumbed with tube & tubing so even this specious argument is flawed.
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Old 12-19-2003, 02:22 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by jasonmt



Amazingly easy to post "pipe is bad" but it is going to be amazingly hard to prove it with empirical data.

BTW My bathroom is plumbed with tube & tubing so even this specious argument is flawed.
I think this is my favorite post of the year. Learn it for yourself folks. Don't just chant the same thing everyone else does.
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Old 12-19-2003, 04:33 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally posted by jasonmt



Amazingly easy to post "pipe is bad" but it is going to be amazingly hard to prove it with empirical data.

BTW My bathroom is plumbed with tube & tubing so even this specious argument is flawed.
What's their to prove? Look at the strengths of the materials used. Exact same cage one DOM one pipe of the same wall thickness, the DOM one WILL be stronger than the pipe. I just love it when guys post that their flawed DOM or HREW cage failed but their new properly designed pipe cage hasn't Anyway, decide for yourself if your life is worth saving a couple bucks.
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Old 12-19-2003, 06:19 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Azrckcrawler


What's their to prove? Look at the strengths of the materials used. Exact same cage one DOM one pipe of the same wall thickness, the DOM one WILL be stronger than the pipe. I just love it when guys post that their flawed DOM or HREW cage failed but their new properly designed pipe cage hasn't Anyway, decide for yourself if your life is worth saving a couple bucks.
Thats the problem - you want to compare A53 to 1020 DOM. That is the same as trying to compare 1020 DOM to 1010 HREW - strangely enough the 1020 DOM is stronger.

Why not compare A106C HFS to 1018 HFS which have similar alloying percentages and tell me which one is stronger?
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Old 12-19-2003, 08:16 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Azrckcrawler


What's their to prove? Look at the strengths of the materials used. Exact same cage one DOM one pipe of the same wall thickness, the DOM one WILL be stronger than the pipe. I just love it when guys post that their flawed DOM or HREW cage failed but their new properly designed pipe cage hasn't Anyway, decide for yourself if your life is worth saving a couple bucks.
the problem with this analogy is you dont find 1.5" or 2" pipe with a .120 sidewall , if you look at standard sched 40/80 pipe, it is not .120 sidwall, otherwise it wouldtn be sched40..the pipe schedule is setup as a standard and .120wall schedule 40 is not it. What people are making their pipe cages out of is not .120 wall pipe.the pipe isnt even 1.5" or 2" OD, but 1.5 or 2" ID so, its actually a bit bigger than the tube..just some thoughts.
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Old 12-20-2003, 07:42 AM   #21 (permalink)
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What would be the streght difference between chromoly tubing say .120 to pipe of the simular thickness?
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Old 12-20-2003, 10:38 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Azrckcrawler


What's their to prove? Look at the strengths of the materials used. Exact same cage one DOM one pipe of the same wall thickness, the DOM one WILL be stronger than the pipe. I just love it when guys post that their flawed DOM or HREW cage failed but their new properly designed pipe cage hasn't Anyway, decide for yourself if your life is worth saving a couple bucks.
when you post a cage of a53 schedule 40 proprely designd that folded and an improperly designed cage of DOM that didnt, ill shut up im giving you examples of real world experience, your spouting off catchy phrases....'pipe is for poop'...

i could give 2 shits what everyone makes there cages out of, as long as it protects them effectively. not to sound DRMish, but sooner or later youll all figure out that the design is WAY more important than wether its a53 pipe sched40, .120 DOM 1020 or .120 HREW/ERW...
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Old 12-20-2003, 10:39 AM   #23 (permalink)
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4340 .120 wall, 2" OD, should be roughly 4 times stronger than 1.5" sch 40 A53E pipe (1.9" OD, with .145" wall)
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Old 12-20-2003, 04:52 PM   #24 (permalink)
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thank you for the info Bgreen
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