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Old 12-11-2005, 03:04 PM   #1 (permalink)
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SnoZuki Build up

I am posting this for my dad, it is his project. Some people in General showed some interest in a write up on these things, so here it is. He is attempting to build some tracks for his samurai. It currently has a 4.5" spring under lift with 30s. THe frame is 2.5" and 2" hitch stock. the rollers are 6" x 2" wheels frrom the local metal and industrial supply place. it uses a 3500# trailer bearing to support the track. Currently we just go the first one constructed and bolted on. THe drive hub is temporary, the design will be revised.

Pics:
NO Track


With track

its gonna be wide:

Side shot:


If you have any questions feel free to ask. Hopefully it should be up and running by new years.
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Old 12-11-2005, 03:11 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Right on. Keep the pix and details comming...
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Old 12-11-2005, 03:15 PM   #3 (permalink)
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VERY cool!
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Old 12-11-2005, 03:38 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Wow ..
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Old 12-11-2005, 04:52 PM   #5 (permalink)
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very clean sammi!

what is the cost compaired to a Matt tracks set up?
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Old 12-11-2005, 05:17 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Nice, I like it. Please keep us posted.
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Old 12-11-2005, 06:17 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Well, we were quoted $26,000 for Mattracks, hopefully there should be no more than $3000 into these. My dad is at about $2000 right now.

More info i thought of:

114" track

13.37" drive hub, (provides about 2:1 gear reduction over stock)

approximately 2200 sq. in. of surface area between the 4 when completed, meaning about 1-1.2 psi

It is spaced out far so that it can turn and clear the leaf springs, we checked it today, the track can go full lock to lock, with plenty of room for movement up and down.

Yes, it is the cleanest samurai ever, '86 with about 70,000 miles. Just a few dents, but in overall perfect condition. THe powersteering conversion is in the mail, and my dad is on the lookout for a jetta TDI for it also.

O, just so people don't get too confused, this is the same guy that posted the earlyier stuff, i am at home now, i was using my little bro's account before.

O yeah, they weigh about as much as a 44" swamper.


Ok, i thought of something else, right now the drivetrain is stock, we figured the smaller drive hubs should give plenty of gear reduction, but we were wondering about traction, is he going to need lockers? Currently the plan is to keep the stock axles (we have spare shafts just in case) would it be too much stress on the axles to have them locked? If he does install a locker/lockers they will most likely be ARBs, so doing that will significantly raise the cost of the project. Any ideas here would be appreciated.
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Old 12-12-2005, 01:47 AM   #8 (permalink)
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cool!
I like the way the carriage is under the main drive sprocket - but I don't like the hub design . It's too much like my tracks and it sucks








I like these:






Notice how they built the spindle into the sprocket/wheel assembly - more like Mattracks, acutally.



Your carriage is a lot like Mattracks too - good design, seems to work for them - and no sliders My tracks have sliders/gravel-grinders - not so good. They are snow-only as a result.

Your gearing with the sprockets should be good. About the same as mine, and the original builder ran them around on a stock Zuk a bit before he sold them to me. Shipping from Maine to Alaska was not fun

The diesel is a good idea - TDI is a bit of a pain, what with the built into the dash theft protection - Vanagon conversions are putting the whole cluster under the seat
A Canadian 1.9td like mine might do ya' if you can locate one.

Here's an old video - you'll enjoy it, I'm sure.

right click, save as, of course

ZukonTracks

Last edited by deepmud; 12-12-2005 at 01:53 AM.
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Old 12-12-2005, 10:36 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Deepmud:

What exactly about the hub design sucks?

Are you running any sort of traction device with your tracks?
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Old 12-12-2005, 12:15 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I will need to look at my fleat of sleds in the backyard. I thought the wheels road on the rubber and the "slides" road on the metal slots.

Also I don't see any adjustment for tension to keep the track from walking left or right.

Not questioning the design, just seams like you are so close to a sled setup, but yet not taking advantage of the design

Watch the ice unless you are planning to stud the track.

I'd really like to see this setup run. You really got me thinking.
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Old 12-12-2005, 12:37 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93chico4by
Deepmud:

What exactly about the hub design sucks?

Are you running any sort of traction device with your tracks?

If you mount the spindle on the tower, and bolt the hub to the sprocket drum, it puts more stress on the spindle, because it ends up more offset. Look at the Maine-Made and the Mattracks - the spindle is on the sprocket/drum, so the hub holds still. Also, since the hub is welded on, there's no flange deal with there, and the spindle flange can be part of the sprocket/drum - and then it can be bolted on like a standard wheel is, rather than assembled on the rig.

as far as adjustment - my yellow ones have adjustment for stretch, but even when they are pretty loose they track well. That's one advantage of running the sliders, perhaps. It's also easier to drive the windows with a sprocket, rather than involutes with bars- that requires more tension - both Mattracks and the Maine-Made (I made that up describe the units on the S-10) - are driving the involutes (of course, Mattracks has special belts made, not using snowmaching tracks).

Lockers in the axles - I ran a rear locker, seems ok. The steering sucked BAD in tight quarters anyway - stay out of the trees - at least with manual steering. I'd say hydro assist would be a VERY good idea.

dude, you need to put "this is Numtel" at the top when you post from your brother's account, or just log out of his and back in with your own
EDIT: Crap - ok, you shoulda' picked an easier name then - so no more Numtel, right? 93Chico4by is IT!! I may have to call you Chico tho'

BTW- my spindles (not chosen by me!) are only 1k spindles, so yours may just hold up as they are. Mine bent, and I straightened 'em, and I bent them again, and straightened them - they have no more bends left Next time, I cut them out and cough up a new design. I mostly bought mine for the tracks, carriages, and sprockets.

I'd say running the wheels over the windows may not be the best ride I also have plans to run more wheels, but I'll still leave the sliders on as guides.

Last edited by deepmud; 12-12-2005 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 12-12-2005, 01:58 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Lockers in the axles - I ran a rear locker, seems ok. The steering sucked BAD in tight quarters anyway - stay out of the trees - at least with manual steering. I'd say hydro assist would be a VERY good idea.
Deepmud, what are your thoughts on running just rear tracks, but with skis up front? Seems it may be advantageous for easier steering, but would there be a real disadvantage in traction? Does that one front track (open diff) provide that much more pull than you would get with just rears and a locked diff?

A light Samurai on tracks and skis just might be the perfect low-buck vehicle to get you to and from the icefishing areas in comfort that you can usually only reach by snowmobile or Bombardier.
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Old 12-12-2005, 03:32 PM   #13 (permalink)
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thats lookin pretty bad ass, cant wait to see them done. Good to see some great ideas locally
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Old 12-12-2005, 04:27 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RgdL
Deepmud, what are your thoughts on running just rear tracks, but with skis up front? Seems it may be advantageous for easier steering, but would there be a real disadvantage in traction? Does that one front track (open diff) provide that much more pull than you would get with just rears and a locked diff?

A light Samurai on tracks and skis just might be the perfect low-buck vehicle to get you to and from the icefishing areas in comfort that you can usually only reach by snowmobile or Bombardier.

Well - first, you can't exactly qualify an open diff as just one side getting the grip. If both sides have X traction, you can put 2x torque to the wheels - it's just when one side has .5 X, and the other may have 3x - you can only put torque equal to twice the least traction - or in the second case, 1X(that's gonna' be .5X to each side). A lot more than Zero X, like skis. However, in a lot of situations, just tracks in the back are fine. Plus, it's cheaper and easier to build a couple larger tracks, with deep lugs, than to build 4 smaller sets. So you could build longer tracks, with struts tying them to the leaf springs or something, with skis up front, and perhaps in really soft snow you'd end up with a lower PSI, and do even better than my 4 tracks. The early Tucker Sno Cats were rear tracks, front skis - the snow coaches at Yellowstone are converted vans with track undercarriege and front skis. I think a halftrack might work great as a mini snowmobile . I am confident it would do fine on any groomed trails, maybe you could volunteer to be their groomer

Last edited by deepmud; 12-12-2005 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 12-12-2005, 04:34 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 93chico4by
Deepmud:

What exactly about the hub design sucks?

Are you running any sort of traction device with your tracks?

Found a pic of mine bent up.


It's like you have a 15" wide wheel, with zero offset. The 3500 pound axle may not be enough mounted like mine are. However, if you make your drum bigger, so the spindle can be inside it like mattracks, it should be plenty.
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Old 12-12-2005, 05:13 PM   #16 (permalink)
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old track threads, so you can read what I forgot
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...ght=snow+track

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...ght=snow+track
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Old 12-12-2005, 05:43 PM   #17 (permalink)
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lessee - Zukiworld. This guy is Dozer Don - in his post to Zukiworld, he asks for contact with anyone with tracks like these, however Eric Spew-ley, the owner of Zukiworld, just replied with some b.s. form letter about not disclosing any information on club members when I asked him to forward my email to Dozer Don. So this pic is a couple years old, and I have no idea if the rig is still around.


I can tell it's another set of Una Tracks

There was an orange Zuk with a set at a car show awhile back, could be the same rig, now that I think about it.
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Old 12-12-2005, 09:10 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Hey nutmel I am just above you in Paradise you should shoot me a PM about when you are gonna take these out, I have a sami on toyota axles locked f/r and was plannig on putting sprint car tires on this winter( the big ones) and it would be cool to compare

and if it were me I would lock it front and rear cause it would seem stupid to spend all that time, money and effort and not be able to use it to the fullest extent, but thats just me
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Old 12-12-2005, 09:30 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YotaAtieToo
Hey nutmel I am just above you in Paradise you should shoot me a PM about when you are gonna take these out, I have a sami on toyota axles locked f/r and was plannig on putting sprint car tires on this winter( the big ones) and it would be cool to compare

and if it were me I would lock it front and rear cause it would seem stupid to spend all that time, money and effort and not be able to use it to the fullest extent, but thats just me
well, our dad lives in Elk Grove, so the sami isn't here in Chico. I imagine most of the testing will be done up around the fordyce area, as my dad has a cabin up there. Sprint car tires definetly sounds intersting? are you going to modify the tread at all? Stay tuned to the thread and we should be reporting when the testing and runs are going to be if you would like to go.
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:55 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Let me guess the ones from maine came from a machine shop in poland maine? That or it might just be over the lin into mechanic falls, or is that part new gloucester.
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Old 12-13-2005, 11:51 AM   #21 (permalink)
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eh, I am from Alaska, what do I know about Maine? I think yes, I heard Poland, Maine - from Wyld Bill on here, as I recall. He took those pics, plus this one:


and:



they look like 1st Gen version of the S10 tracks.

Mine were build by a guy who had seen these. I don't know why he chose to build them with the spindle on the tower, rather than on the hub like these tracks, and Mattracks - it's a stronger design this way.

Funny about the Russian WheelTracks, using the tire tread as tracks - Richard (my builder) said his next project was going to be seeing if he could make tire tread into tracks, and he was going to bolt on involute nubs like the Russians did. He, however, was only interested in a light duty set that could make a small 4x4 into a trail groomer - like the Tracker is set up as in the pic above. The Russian tracks are made so a stock 4x4 has performance like a mod'd truck on 38" Boggers - different objectives
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Old 12-13-2005, 02:00 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepmud

There was an orange Zuk with a set at a car show awhile back, could be the same rig, now that I think about it.



This one? i dunno, but i figured i'd add it to the thread.
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Old 12-15-2005, 11:42 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Yup, that's the orange one (different car show tho' ) - and since Dozer Don mentions painting it on Zukiworld, and they both have the CB mount in the same place, and the tracks are rare enough, I'll bet it's the same rig.

So -93chico4by - anymore pics? What's dad think about my complaints with my spindles mounted the same as his?

I have a fix - funny enough, the roller-wheels I found were the heavy casters sold at Home Depot, they look exactly like the rollers you found - they mis-marked them, I got 8 at 4.95 each - they're 18.95 now, I should have picked up another 32 at 4.95 and made my tracks all-season

They will be mounted under the drum, to support the inner edge, and keep the spindles from bending. I tried sno-mobile rollers, but it was too much pressure, they just squished, and the spindle bent again. Your dad's design could do the same thing - put a couple rollers from the carriage to the inner edge of the drum, and things will be much stronger. Your drum is a smaller diameter ( I like it, btw - no putting on lug nuts with long extensions thru a 5" hole ) but should be able to run a couple rollers anyway. Perhaps they'd have to be offset, rather than inline, but no biggie.

The old una-tracks solve this by only having rollers, no spindles to bend. Most the time, the weight of the rig on the rollers keeps things in place - that, and track tension. There are plastic lined aluminum straps over the top of the drum to keep things from getting out of hand, but most the time, I expect track tension is all that is needed.
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Old 12-15-2005, 12:28 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepmud

They will be mounted under the drum, to support the inner edge, and keep the spindles from bending. I tried sno-mobile rollers, but it was too much pressure, they just squished, and the spindle bent again. Your dad's design could do the same thing - put a couple rollers from the carriage to the inner edge of the drum, and things will be much stronger. Your drum is a smaller diameter ( I like it, btw - no putting on lug nuts with long extensions thru a 5" hole ) but should be able to run a couple rollers anyway. Perhaps they'd have to be offset, rather than inline, but no biggie.

Hmm, i really like that idea. i will make sure my dad hears about it. Though, i hope his will be fine without it. Like was stated earlier, he is using 3500# spindles and the WMS of the trailer bearing is mounted at 4" offset, or about 3.5" backspacing. But, it would definelty be something that could be designed into a later version of the tracks.

I haven't reacieved any new pics yet, but i know he has a shop building his drive hubs and doing some other work for him right now. the were supposed to be done today. So hopefully updates are coming soon.
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Old 12-15-2005, 12:43 PM   #25 (permalink)
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ya, 3500 is better - but it's 3500 an axle - so 1750 per spindle, mine are 1k per spindle - your dad's would be less than 2 times as strong, and the rigs are the same weight. Keep in mind the weight rating is with the correct offset. The actual offset the spindle will have to handle is when a solid object gets under the inner edge of the track - so more like 12 inches from the inner edge of the track to the spindle, since his spindle is inset more than mine are - if you look at my "bent" pic, you can see the weak point clearly. Mine did fine on flat roads and trails - they bent in two minutes of cruising thru the woods, over small trees and such. So the 1k spindle is no where close to strong enough, and I worry his are just "close", but perhaps not quite strong enough.

It just sucks when they bend and you're done for the day and then, in my case, they sit for another year, actually

But then, I spread myself too thin. If I was focused, I'd have fixed 'em up, and run them so much I should need a new set by now!
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