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Old 10-16-2006, 08:51 AM   #1 (permalink)
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1.3 head on 1.6 16V block

Ok, tired of reading posts, time to build. I've been researching this for several days on several suzuki boards, and haven't come to an absolute answer. I'm tired of reading the possiblies, maybe's, shoulda, coulda, don't know's.

My question is this. Will the 1.3L head work on the 1.6 16 Valve block with the 1.6 16 valve stock PISTONS? I do understand the head will work on the block, and will become a interference motor, but will the 16 valve pistons work? Haven't read any for sure definite answers on this. Anyone know what the timing range would be for this set-up? stock samurai or sidekick?

And before anything is said, Yes I would like to have a complete 16V, but I got the block for free, its in good shape, I have a newer re-built 1.3 head and my own custom fuel injection set-up, tri-y header and such. I would like the torque that has been mentioned by going to this set-up.
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Old 10-16-2006, 05:30 PM   #2 (permalink)
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dont know the answer to your question but i do know that i have a good 16v head/intake/exhaust manifold i believe all is there except injectors. I would be willing to sell to you but too heavy to ship. im in farmington new mexico. maybe your close enough to come get it let me know.
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Old 10-16-2006, 08:43 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Farmington, what a fun place to wheel! I'm in Pueblo so its not that far. Its a good option thank you. PM me with more info and I will see what i can do. I am trying to work this out on what I have since moneys tight. But couldn't pass up an option if I could swing it. Then I would have to hunt down the electricals, or adapt my Fi onto that head. Hmmm.....

Still would like to know if my original idea can actually work without swapping pistons.
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Old 10-16-2006, 10:29 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I researched this option a few years ago. I got frustrated like you too. However, I did get in contact with a guy that helped me out alot. He sent me an extensive write-up on everything he had to do to make it work.

to answer your questions.....

Yes the 1.3 head will bolt on.
Yes it will be an interference motor. Without changing out the pistons that is.
You will need parts from a 1.6L 8v motor.
You will use the timing for a 1.6L 8v.
And yes you would be better off scoring the 16v head anyway.

I'll see if i can find that guys e-mails sent me and post them up. They're pretty long though.
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Old 10-16-2006, 11:17 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtnmankev from the Suzuki-forums
It's not a fast bolt together conversion, unless one has done it a few times. this was my first. it really helps if you have a garage available to work in. i did not have that luxury and was subject to the winter weather working outdoors. for starters, the 16 valve is too tall for a stock body. if you plan to run the 16 valve head, you will need to do a body lift to clear the hood. I used a 8 valve head from my 1.3 sami on the 1.6 block and it clears the hood nicely. i used the intake and exhaust from the 1.3 sami, as i did not want to deal with the electronic multiport fuel injection. the oil pan in a sami without a suspension lift will have to be 1.3, the 1.6 oil pan will hit the front drive axle tube. and because the 1.3 oil pan has to be used, the pickup tube from the 1.3 must also be used. have to cut both the 1.3 and 1.6 pickup tubes and weld back together carefully to fit the 1.6 oil pickup hole in block, and fit in the sump of the 1.3 pan. have to weld a bracket onto the pickup tube to mount to the main bearing cap to add needed support. have to use the 1.6 oil pump, but there is a hole for the crankshaft sensor that will need to be plugged with JB weld or coolant can dribble into the pan and oil will splatter out. use a timing belt from a 1.6 8 valve if using the 1.3 head, and note there are 4 possible combinations of the timing mark, i found the right combo on the third try. if you are using 8 valve head, pistons will need to be changed, as 16 valve
pistons will hit the valves and vise versa. the timing gears/belts from 1.3 and 1.6 are different, the 1.3 uses a square cut and the 1.6 has rounded edges. not interchangable. have to use a 1.3 flywheel and 1.3 clutch, the 1.6 will not fit in the bellhousing. the clutch cable is adjusted all the way to the end of it's travel, and the toe play is still about 2", but clutch operation is okay with the shortened amount of travel at the pedal and car shifts nicely. the exhaust will not line up as it did before, so you will more than likely need to do some exhaust system work. a header and a 2" system is almost mandatory to get the full potential.if you have any questions, please feel free to email me and ask, and i will answer as best i can. this has been quite a learning experience.

When using an 8 valve head you gotta use 8 valve pistons, and the same is true for the 16 valve model. the valve reliefs are different and you will have an interference problem if you don't match the pistons to the head.

I used the timing gears from the 1.6, they bolt right on the 8 valve head. use the 1.6 L 8 valve timing belt. The cam gear that was my '96 1.6 16 valve has two timing marks and two slots to use to line up the alignment pin. after the cam gear is installed, don't torque the retaining bolt all the way yet, as you may need to change the position of the gear and align a different timing mark on the head. The marks are labelled I and E, i used I but forget which slot i put the dowel pin in. you can start the engine briefly without the pulleys and fan belt, but the timing belt will want to travel forward. if the engine catches and runs, you are good, put the timing belt all the way back on and complete the engine assembly and torque the cam bolt. Also, never let the timing belt tensioner run any tighter than the spring will pull it when you loosen the locknut with the idler holddown bolt loose.

glad to be of assistance, i knew i was not the only one to tackle this project. hope your 1.6 runs like the beast it is supposed to, mine has low end torque like i never expected. love it...

use a timing belt from a 1.6 8 valve if using the 1.3 head, and note there
are 4 possible combinations of the timing mark, i found the right combo on
the third try.

if you are using 8 valve head, pistons will need to be changed, as 16 valve
pistons will hit the valves and vise versa. the timing gears/belts from 1.3
and 1.6 are different, the 1.3 uses a square cut and the 1.6 has rounded
edges. not interchangable.

additional note:
the timing cover will have to be from a 1.6L 8 valve. the stud/nut that holds the cam tensioner bracket to the water pump will be replaced with just a bolt because the hole in the cover won't line up with it, but the cover fits perfect on the 1.6 block/1.3 head

i got mine from the suzuki dealer, was $36 and change plus a couple bucks for the gasket.

Sorry for the long post but that is all the information that I recieved from Kevin.

He said not to use the 16v pistons with the 8v head, however if everything is in perfect time it will work.

But if you're timing belt jumps, or if you're off one cog, your new combo will and you'll have nothing.

Hope this helps.
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Old 10-17-2006, 07:09 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Kingmick217, thats the best write up I've seen yet. Thanks a lot! So it is possible to run with the 16V pistons, but could be a costly mistake if not aligned up properly. I assumed that, but haven't read anyone actually doing it so wasn't sure it could actually work. Everyone seemed to go to the 8V pistons. I know I could do that, but then I would be basicly doing a light rebuild on the lower end and I just don't have that kind of money avail just yet and would like to get this thing runnin. I'm gonna look into getting the 16V head, but if this could work, then that would be just awsome.
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Old 10-17-2006, 08:12 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Yeah, I actually talked to a guy at one point that was currently running the 16v pistons with the 8v head. People flamed the hell out of him for it , but it worked all the same.

when you put the motor together, turn it by hand VERY SLOWLY TO SEE IF THERE IS ANY CONTACT. That should keep you out of trouble.

Post-up some pics if you get it done too. We're obviously not the first to contimplate this route and there isn't much info out there yet.
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Old 10-17-2006, 08:33 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingmick217
when you put the motor together, turn it by hand VERY SLOWLY TO SEE IF THERE IS ANY CONTACT. That should keep you out of trouble.

That is my plan. Just trying to determine what the timing should be set at. Samurai is 10*BTDC and isn't the 1.6 8*BTDC? This will be interesting nontheless. Just hate to destroy my head and or the block. But thats the price to pay to be experimental. I will take pics and keep this info updated as I go.

I'm sure others have tried this, I'm surprised others haven't chimed in on this subject.
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Old 10-17-2006, 02:46 PM   #9 (permalink)
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those are ignition timing not cam timing so your ok there set it where it runs good
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Old 10-17-2006, 03:18 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catzuk
Just trying to determine what the timing should be set at.
You don't have to worry about destroying the engine just to set the ignition timing.

- Just choose your location (if you drive in the mtns most of the time, tune it in the mtns)

- Choose the fuel you expect to use.

- Best to pick a HOT day.

- Maybe carry some people or weight in the Zuke.

Start the timing at some conservative number. I don't know what that will be, cuz we apparently don't know the resulting compression ratio. Use maybe 5-6 degrees?

- Drive it till warm, and in a tall gear gently roll on the gas at a relatively low rpm, an rpm that you like to drive at.

- Listen for pinging. Advance the timing until it *just* begins to ping when gassing it in 4th or 5th, at fairly low rpms. This is to emulate some of the worst driving conditions you will encounter relative to detonation. In these conditions, with one or two lil pings (that you can live with) heard when you roll on, you have found the optimum timing FOR THESE CONDITIONS.

You may hear tremendous pinging, I don't know. The compression ratio might be like waaaay over the top, and you may have to retard like crazy. Maybe you could experiment with two head gaskets in a case like that.

I suppose you could grind some material out of the combustion chamber to lower the CR, but this has a number of gottchas and caveats to watch.

There is an Indian fella who is experimenting with certain combustion chamber mods. He has a web page. He is machining slots into the squish-band of the combustion chamber, directed towards the spark plug. This is said to improve mpg, power and lower octane requirements. I have a link at home on this for the experimenter among us.

I used to have an old valve with a piece of hard metal brazed to the face, it might have been HSS. This acts like a cutter for valve reliefs when placed into the valve guide and rotated against the pistons. I used it a lot on motorcycles, not Zukes.

- The farther advanced you can run it, the more power and mpg you get. Some folks save money in their commuter by buying a higher grade fuel, and advancing the spark in the way I described. Sometimes the increased mpg will pay for the higher priced fuel. This would be a trial and error thing I guess.

GeoB
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Old 10-17-2006, 06:40 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Thanks for the help guys. I do understand how to drive time the ignition so that shouldn't be a prob. Thanks GeoB for the refresher. I just didn't think of the cam timing vs the ignition timing terminalogy. I do think that the best bet is to get it close to done and turn it by hand while its on the bench. that way I can hear/feel if anything is hitting.

Right now I have both the head and the block set at 0* on the number 1 cylinder. Everything is in line. Time to start assembling. too bad its snowing and blowing like mad here. Might have to work more on this tomorrow.
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Old 10-21-2006, 08:47 PM   #12 (permalink)
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hopefully it's not too late... but if you could take some pictures and document the process as well, maybe the next poor bastard that tries this won't have to search so damn hard.

Let us know when you get'er done.
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Old 10-21-2006, 10:05 PM   #13 (permalink)
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this may sound bad


1st off get some yellow marking paint and put on the valves
2nd turn the block over so 2 of the pistons are on the top
3rd set the head on put 2 head bolts on (with out the head gasket)
4th turn over the head so that the valves move and tuch the head
( turn over one way tell it gets hard then back the other way so you dont fawk up the vlaves )
5th take the head back off
6th now you know where to grind the pistons (i used a die grinder)

7th then repeat on the other 2 pistons



i have done this on a fue motors it works ok and the only reason is because i have had them laying around in the shop and someone needed a good motor
they seem to work fine


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Old 10-23-2006, 08:19 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I haven't started installing this yet, so I will document and take pics!

Moto, so your saying that the valves do hit? Or is it that close that you decided to clearence the pistons a little for extra room? I've been getting a few different answers to this now and I wonder why. Different head gaskets have different thicknesses? I have the 1.3 head gasket and maybe I could get a 1.6 and check for thickness. I would assume they would be essientially the same, might not be.

I do have some marking compound and was planning to try to mock this up on the bench to see what hits before the actual install, so thanks for the heads up. I am a little learly on grinding on the pistons, but again it was a freebie and if I end up needing new ones, then so be it. Next question would be, before I go searching on this again, can the 1.6 8V pistons match up in size to the 16V ones? Does anyone know if they fit onto the 16V rods? What about the 1.3 8V pistons? If this ends up the way to go.

If it wasn't a freebie, i'd have to opt for some different pistons, but since when do I ever back down from a challenge?
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Old 10-23-2006, 03:58 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Hi,I dont post on this board but read it sometimes. I have a 1.6 16v block and a 1.3 8v head. So yes it works, and it works well. It has more power than my 1.6 8v block and the same head had.

- Why worry about the pistons hitting the valves? if you know how to time it there is no problem, just turn it by hand too see if it turns over without problems if it makes you feel better. And how many times have you snapped a timingbelt? Its not supposed to snap, do normal service and it will be fine

-You can use a 1.3 or 1.6 headgasket, but needs minor adjustment of one oil-passage.

-You will need a 1.6 8v timingbelt, tentioner and cover. You need the lower timingbelt pulley from a 1.6 8v since its narrower than the 16v. You can use the 16v cam pulley. The 1.6 block are taller,thats why the 1.3 timingbelt are too short.

-Advantages are higher comp. It blew a 1.3 clutch litterally into pieces. And a reliable 1.3 8v head and a stronger more reliable block. Eliminating the weaker 1.6 8v bottom and the 16v heads that tend to crack

I have a 16v head in my garage, but I dont want it, instead Im swapping in a FI from a swift and a rebuild 1.3 head. This combo must be bulletproof, because its my 5th engine or so in a few years, and it has held for over a year lol



her is two(crappy) pics of it
http://www.bilbygging.no/download.php?id=5505
http://www.bilbygging.no/download.php?id=4326


sorry for my speeling
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Old 10-24-2006, 07:32 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShuDuck
Hi,I dont post on this board but read it sometimes. I have a 1.6 16v block and a 1.3 8v head. So yes it works, and it works well. It has more power than my 1.6 8v block and the same head had.

- Why worry about the pistons hitting the valves? if you know how to time it there is no problem, just turn it by hand too see if it turns over without problems if it makes you feel better. And how many times have you snapped a timingbelt? Its not supposed to snap, do normal service and it will be fine

-You can use a 1.3 or 1.6 headgasket, but needs minor adjustment of one oil-passage.

-You will need a 1.6 8v timingbelt, tentioner and cover. You need the lower timingbelt pulley from a 1.6 8v since its narrower than the 16v. You can use the 16v cam pulley. The 1.6 block are taller,thats why the 1.3 timingbelt are too short.

-Advantages are higher comp. It blew a 1.3 clutch litterally into pieces. And a reliable 1.3 8v head and a stronger more reliable block. Eliminating the weaker 1.6 8v bottom and the 16v heads that tend to crack

I have a 16v head in my garage, but I dont want it, instead Im swapping in a FI from a swift and a rebuild 1.3 head. This combo must be bulletproof, because its my 5th engine or so in a few years, and it has held for over a year lol:

Glad to hear another has done this. I only asked about the pistons hitting the valves as I have read many posts on this subject but they all seemed to go to the 8V block. Or have swaped in 8V pistons. I did use some gear marking compound on the pistons last night and with my head on there there was NOTHING that was even close to hitting. I say close, but i'm sure it was only a few thousands away. I put a lot of compound on the piston where the valves would make contact, and set the head on tightened it. Timed it correctly and ran it thru several cycles. I had a real thick layer 1/16" at least of compound on the pistons and nothing touched. Good reasurance.

I have a new 1.3 head gasket and will look it over to see what I need to "adjust" and take pics of that.

I have the 1.6 8V timing belt and cover is on order.

I have the 1.6 16V cam timing pully, and currently have the 1.6 16V crank timing pully on. This I may change to be able to reuse my V-belt crank pullys.

I have the stock 1.6 16V timing belt adjuster still on and it seems to work fine, wasn't out of adjustment. Why change that? I like the steel better than the plastic pulley.

I have a good 1.3 head with swift fuel injection allready, and a tri-y header which is why I want to try to keep the head.

ShuDuck, on your head are you fairly stock or did you do the 1.6 exhaust valves?

I will have some pics loaded here soon.
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Old 10-24-2006, 11:00 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Sounds good, looking forward to the pics, I dont have any good ones of mine.

I might be wrong on the tentioner, but it seemed to interfear with the cover. I had to grind of some of the waterpump-pulley(v-pulley from 1.3) to get it to fit when I didnt have the cover on. If it fits thats good. I used the plastic one because it came eith the new timingbelt and it cleared things better. Slight difference in how the 8v and 16v tentioner are positioned to tighten, but thats no problem.
Check all the oil-passages to make sure, but I only remember i modified one of them. The passages in the block and head line up good, but the gasket does not.


I have not a stock head, it has a calmini cam and header, and a weber with bigger jets. No 1.6 valves.
Although it was mounted on my 1.6 8v block who trew a rod because of water in the oil (cracked block) so I should really not run it


So we will have almost identical engines, you got a great mind Mr.

what parts of the swift are you using? And what year? I have from a `90 GLi

Do you have a bodylift? I dont and my pipercross is rubbing my hood. The swift-intake would bring things a bit lower, hope it will go clear of the hood. And there is no way Im getting a BL

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Old 10-24-2006, 12:11 PM   #18 (permalink)
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The fuel injection i'm using is from a 91 swift. Not sure what model. it had the 1.3 in it. It had no egr. and I took every thing from the intake, sensors, ecm, fuel pump relay box. It was only like 13 wires total I believe. This set-up allowed me to keep the stock sammy distributor, and O2 sensor. then was just the Vss installed onto th eback of the speedo and some misc wireing. I ended up useing the stock swift fuel tank and in tank pump which was nice and quiet compared to the external fuel pumps.

I have no body lift. Actually, my body sits almost on the frame these days. The swift air cleaner is just over the top of the valve cover in height. Lots of room on mine.

Ok I didn't check the cover clearences yet as I don't have the timing cover yet. That I will check. Thought about going over to the rib belt, but that would mean changing over my power steering and alt pully's. I'd like to keep this as simple as possible. As well as less expense.

I will get these pics loaded here soon i swear.
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87 Zuk, dana 44's w/5:38 detroits,coils/3 link frt, 3 link rear 37" Krawlers
87 Zuk, SPOA, Lockright/spool, 31" Truxs MT's. shaved and trussed stock axle housings,1.6/w 1.3 head, fuel injected, 4.16 t-case
88.5 Zuk future project pending

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Old 10-24-2006, 02:18 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Also, modeling clay works on top of the pistons to show valve clearance.
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Old 10-24-2006, 02:45 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Dyno!

Ok - I am kinda curious about the results of such a combo. More compression, higher torque.. sounds very cool. Did anyone put their 1300 8v/1600 16v combo on a dyno to measure HP / Nms? Just wondering
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Old 10-24-2006, 03:17 PM   #21 (permalink)
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My old 1300 with the same head I have now(calmini cam, weber and header) put out 71 HP. I got the engine out of a zuk i bough for parts and the PO did a dyno on it lol
Not that it had anything to do with the topic though. But would be cool too see what power a 16v/8v combo with FI can produce


Sounds like its mostly the same Fi Im using, but my SJ413 has nada computercontrolled devices in it now. Good news on my clearance-problems with the hood, thanks
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Old 10-24-2006, 03:23 PM   #22 (permalink)
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anyone know if the 1.3 head will bolt to a 1.3l 16v block?(out of a late model metro)
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Old 10-24-2006, 03:33 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zuknstien
anyone know if the 1.3 head will bolt to a 1.3l 16v block?(out of a late model metro)
yes it will,the blocks are identical,and mutch stronger internals than the 8v 1300. BUT this is for the ones from the 80s and 90s.Not sure about late 90 and up.Might be that they are the same too, the 8v most likely fits these later engines too. What year are you talking about?

Last edited by ShuDuck; 10-24-2006 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 10-25-2006, 12:40 AM   #24 (permalink)
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don't remember what year it was its a single overhead cam 1.3l 16 valve its a pretty new car with low miles.
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Old 10-25-2006, 07:39 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Ok, its off the original subject, but heres a pic of how high the air intake sits on engine. Thats the stock 1.3 block and head. Swift intake and throttle body.
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