Tech topic -16valve propane

[supazuk94]

I am going to start some Tech Topic posts
-- if you have an Idea PM me and I will start it after some good info is posted i will link it in the FAQ
(BTW any flaming or post padding will be edited and or deleted )

OK for the first topic is one many have searched and asked about:

-1.6 16 valve propane build
*lets see some tech*
First problem is the distributer.
Ok i have seen it talked about a little on here but all dead ended postes and people mention samurai guy had an adapter (but he is MIA)
there is one made overseas, however it is over priced.
-anyone have a home made fix
-maybe a factory solution (swift GTI maybe)
-know somone that has a convertion peice made that they could show us
second problem is the the intake
-custom built
-modified stock intake to accept propane

[JJ3]

Personaly the intake is eaisily overcome with a one off adapter. I have a connection that could prol produce a few if demand is there.
I think the spark issue is the problem. Ive looked into using the factory ecu/harrness stripped to only map the ignition. (I.E. only using the required sensors to advance timing) Also looked into the more exspensive aftermarket ignition systems like msd, and mallory.....I beleive they would work but in the 400.00 range it make running pane pointless. There is also the ford DIS stuff that alot of guys run in sidedraft applications that is cheap but confuses me and face it, its ford parts Then there is the megasquirt stuff......For me its just not an option, im sure it will work but cost and complexity rule it out for me.

Then there's this guy...... Look at the "titch got a new heart" link.

http://www.my-4x4.com/

And the zuharrie thread on it...

http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,91604.0.html

Its just seems to dam easy with the 1.3 dizzy.

I started looking into this stuff on nissan ka24de and toyota 2/3rz motors as swap options for my zuk project. I found alot on the nissan with the drifting/inport racer guys, and one dirt track car with the toyota motor using a modified chevy dizzy (vac advance) and ford carb. I have alot of notes (from HOURS of research) on the general subject and would love to see this accomplished. It would not only simplifiy the 16v swap but open up a plethra of options on other brand ( higher HP too )swaps also.

Here is my nissan thread on the subject....

/forum/nissan/722468-ka24e-de.html

The LSx guys have a pre set kit available that fires from the crank trigger...

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...0&autoview=sku

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...0&autoview=sku




So...I think for me the question is;

What system will work dependable with the least amount of inital cost??

[moveaside]

Seems to be a bog work around is installing the 1.3l head on the 16 valve block which has been discussed here as well. The gives you access to the 1.3l intake. As far as the distributor this has been covered in a couple of threads like
distributor info
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...ne#post9066850

Valley Auto who I believe pulled it off and had a part number in the end
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...ne#post7783488
I got my sammy with a 1.3l in it and was all jazzed about propane. The motor had to be rebuilt for sure or swapped so I looked around and found a 16valve with harness, auto tranny, and tcase for 400. That was too good a deal to pass up. I too wanted propane not for economy, power, etc but less electrical problems that could happen on the trail. Even though Brent from Trail Tough did my current harness and has been great at supporting any questions I have I did not want an ecm. Any electrical problems on the trail really will blow a good day of wheeling. Hell thats why I had Brent do the harness and my electrician friend did most of the wiring. Problems with electrical are very frustrating on the trail. Hell me and my electrician friend were on a trail recently and his relays kept clicking, we would have fuel pump then not, found a burnt fusible link, etc but after hours we never figured out the problem and ended up towing him out. That kind of crap sucks and is when you wish you had a simpler system to diagnose and maintain for the trail. EFI rocks this is true but there's no reason to look at propane injected motors and say anything bad about it.

[Propane]

Spark is the only issue. The intake sid eof things can be handled in a variety of ways.

[moveaside]

Originally Posted by Propane

Spark is the only issue. The intake sid eof things can be handled in a variety of ways.

Can you give a few examples of how to address the intake side? Anyone you know been able to address the spark issue and how??

[JJ3]

Originally Posted by moveaside

Valley Auto who I believe pulled it off and had a part number in the end
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...ne#post7783488
I too wanted propane not for economy, power, etc but less electrical problems that could happen on the trail.

Im in the same boat. I want more HP without the headach of wiring gremlins/cost. I also want to run the 1.3 (already paned) as long as I can and build my front suspenstion (3 or 4 link) without worries of it being in the way of a higher HP motor swap. A paned 16v would meet those requirments.


That thread kinda dead ended. So did the 1.3 dizzy w/ the 16v guts work? What was the final word?

[samiguy]

I think I would just go with the 1.6 8v to avoid the hassle. I think its a better off road engine anyways

[ShuDuck]

Originally Posted by moveaside

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...ne#post9066850

as I mentioned in this thread a intake from a swift TBI would make it easy, snapped a pic of one I have in the garage. An adapter and its all sorted, might be the same bolt pattern as samurai TBI, but not sure. In the back of the head there is an outlet for thermostat, fan switch and temp gauge. along with a thermostathousing from a mkII swift 1.3 your cooling problems are solved. this is a better cooling setup than the stock trackick too

My first try to get a 1.3 dist to fit on a 16v was to machine down the 1.3 dist housing and bolt it on, but the gears would be too far apart, and ton enough material. If you look at a 1.3 dist and a 1.6 16v dist you will see that they are tilted different ways. 1.3 is tilted away from the cam gears and 16v is tilted towards the cam gears. I made a housing from som scrap metal, some 2mm plate, 2" exhaust tube, and a piece from a jack handle

Its easy, if you want it just get off your ass and you`ll have it running in a weekend

[ShuDuck]

Originally Posted by shuduck

swift tbi

Originally Posted by shuduck

thermostathousing from a mkii swift 1.3 your cooling problems are solved

[supazuk94]

Originally Posted by moveaside

Seems to be a bog work around is installing the 1.3l head on the 16 valve block which has been discussed here as well. The gives you access to the 1.3l intake. As far as the distributor this has been covered in a couple of threads like
distributor info
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...ne#post9066850

Valley Auto who I believe pulled it off and had a part number in the end
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...ne#post7783488
I got my sammy with a 1.3l in it and was all jazzed about propane. The motor had to be rebuilt for sure or swapped so I looked around and found a 16valve with harness, auto tranny, and tcase for 400. That was too good a deal to pass up. I too wanted propane not for economy, power, etc but less electrical problems that could happen on the trail. Even though Brent from Trail Tough did my current harness and has been great at supporting any questions I have I did not want an ecm. Any electrical problems on the trail really will blow a good day of wheeling. Hell thats why I had Brent do the harness and my electrician friend did most of the wiring. Problems with electrical are very frustrating on the trail. Hell me and my electrician friend were on a trail recently and his relays kept clicking, we would have fuel pump then not, found a burnt fusible link, etc but after hours we never figured out the problem and ended up towing him out. That kind of crap sucks and is when you wish you had a simpler system to diagnose and maintain for the trail. EFI rocks this is true but there's no reason to look at propane injected motors and say anything bad about it.

if you notice i mentioned valley auto in the that thread.. I was looking for other options for this too

[Pietro]

I took my spare 1.3 angle adapter and distributor and tried to put it on the 16 valve. It has way too much backlash regardless of the clocking. I think the only professional install would be to source the overseas carb'd 16 valve dizzy or run a standalone ignition system with a trigger wheel.

[moveaside]

Originally Posted by supazuk94

if you notice i mentioned valley auto in the that thread.. I was looking for other options for this too

yeah I know but unless its a link people can click on searching is way too much work and everyone here is so busy after all.

So far really good stuff

[JJ3]

Originally Posted by Pietro

or run a standalone ignition system with a trigger wheel.

That seems to be the best route I have found on any of the motor swaps I have looked into. Not ness. a trigger wheel type ignition but stripping down the harness to only fire. Complications come from the fuel side.

Maybe someone can identfiy the required circuits on the spark side of the ecu to get it going??? *and those for the nissan ka24de while your at it *

And yes everything in this thread has been really good tech. It will be nice having it in one spot for searching though.

[Pietro]

only problem with using a stock ecm is that you have issues if the ecm doesn't see proper O2 sensor or EGR inputs it will go into open loop or limp home set ignition timing. By still having all the EFI sensors to deal with and having a large wiring harness, you aren't gaining and may as well stick with the stock EFI.

Best bet would be running programmable timing only computer and maybe having someone map a stock vacuum advance dizzy to start with.

Or just find that overseas vacuum advance dizzy and do a large group buy on dizzy's, caps, and rotors.

That dizzy in the picture doesn't appear to be vacuum advance but it is too hard to see in the picture. Plus I wouldn't want to cut my firewall to fit it. I have a showtruck

[supazuk94]

Originally Posted by Pietro

only problem with using a stock ecm is that you have issues if the ecm doesn't see proper O2 sensor or EGR inputs it will go into open loop or limp home set ignition timing. By still having all the EFI sensors to deal with and having a large wiring harness, you aren't gaining and may as well stick with the stock EFI.

Best bet would be running programmable timing only computer and maybe having someone map a stock vacuum advance dizzy to start with.

Or just find that overseas vacuum advance dizzy and do a large group buy on dizzy's, caps, and rotors.

That dizzy in the picture doesn't appear to be vacuum advance but it is too hard to see in the picture. Plus I wouldn't want to cut my firewall to fit it. I have a showtruck

do you have and info on the model year or any part numbers for these over seas ditributors. remember suzuki for some reason we can order over seas parts right from the dealer (first noticed with fold down windshield parts and 410 gear sets aslong as we have part numbers )
also no group buys on the PBB however i will talk with some of our vendors to see what we can do to get this here I really started this thread to see what kind of interest there was and then talk to the vendors

[Valley Auto]

Okay I tried to find it but i must of deleted I had an email from samurai guy on how to do it I know it involed the 1.3 dist and housing and maybe the 1.6 gear not sure. But He does know how to make this work. I have not done it as the lack of availiblility on kicker 3 setups is no bueno. So find Jeremy. Ryan

[skyman6529]

If indeed a 1.3 head can be used, the 1.6 valves can be placed in the head making up for the loss of flow.

Of course you all probably know this, and the fact you're putting in a 16V means yuo want the cam and 16 valves rather than 8 with the 1.3 head.

Anywas I just thought I would toss out the fact that 1.6 valves are able to be used in a 1.3 head with a little machining.

I've reaad a lot on the subject and I really thnk that a 1.3 dizzy with a hoome built adaptor is the way to go ALA-ShuDuck. You'd really have to try to 1.3 dist setup without the adaptor to see if it's viable, or their is in fact too much backlash. I know it's been done but reliablity is a factor, and that's what you are after.

HTH
--Sky

[JJ3]

Originally Posted by supazuk94

do you have and info on the model year or any part numbers for these over seas ditributors. remember suzuki for some reason we can order over seas parts right from the dealer

If that is possible and the cost dosent negate doing it I would LOVE to go that route. If someone could link the part number would be SWEET!

Also.... the thread I found on the carbed 3rz toyota motor he adapted a 70's era GM dizzy w/ vac advance. That may be an option, I.E. antother brand/make dizzy?

Some good info here too....

http://www.zukikrawlers.com/showthre...970#post290970

[samiguy]

at this point wouldnt it just be easier to use a 1.6 8v? I think the 8v is a better off-road engine anyways. I think one of the bigger advantages of the 16v over the 8v is the MPFI, going to propane would bring the 8v and 16v closer to equal performance which I think would negate the effort and cost of importing distributors

[JJ3]

for referance what are the power numbers on the 2? A confirmed answer, no hearsay.

There are alot of (endless really) possabilitys for motor swaps if front of a zuk case this thread is just sticking to a very popular one. It also helps with guys like myself who want to know what it takes (simplified) to get a MPI/FI motor to fire for the possability of fueling with propane.

[supazuk94]

Originally Posted by samiguy

at this point wouldnt it just be easier to use a 1.6 8v? I think the 8v is a better off-road engine anyways. I think one of the bigger advantages of the 16v over the 8v is the MPFI, going to propane would bring the 8v and 16v closer to equal performance which I think would negate the effort and cost of importing distributors

randy yes we all know the 8v is a great power plant but the idea for this is I am going to start topics on various subjects linked in the FAQ so it is search-able

[JJ3]

Originally Posted by supazuk94

do you have and info on the model year or any part numbers for these over seas ditributors. remember suzuki for some reason we can order over seas parts right from the dealer

From another board......

Originally Posted by geckocycles

I think the numbers are as follows.

33100-57B1
229100-8850

Denso Japan

There is no mechanical advance on this dizzy at all. It is from a carbureted 1.6 16v. Just a 2 wire pickup so I don't think it will work very well unless MSD or the ECM that would of came with it is hooked up to it which you could do with a stock 16v MPFI dizzy. I thought it had some kind of centrifugal advance. I should of looked at it closer before. Bummer.
More wasted $.

The gixxer thread on ZK has alot of good info. I beleive they are about the closest to making it feesable.

[Pietro]

it has to have a mech and vac advance. I don't think there are any computer controlled carb's that have an electronic curved distributor.

I think I am going the route of running either a Ford EDIS system or just the EDIS coil pack with the megasquirt controlling the coils directly. Either way it will require a trigger wheel and tuning which is what needs to be done unless you can get a vac advance dizzy

[moveaside]

More info on the 1.3 head on the 16v block I don't think it was posted already?
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...ght=underdrive

Anyone come up with anything on the overseas dizzy?

[LittleBlackSambo]

i don't know why you would need vac advane at all on a propane motor. vac advance is actually vac retard, when the engine is under hard load and the manifold vacuum drops, it backs off the timing to prevent detonation. since propane has a higher octane rating, you probably would get better performance without any vacuum advance on your distributor at all.