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Old 10-16-2002, 11:37 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Question Deep Breathing?

Does anyone know much air the 1.3L and the 1.6L engines eat?
I currently have a 1.3L but will be moving to a 1.6L 8v in the near future....well anyhow this is my idea...
I want to incorporate a snorkle into my Exo-Cage I am building and need to figure the flow of the Engines so I dont starve them and determine the Diameter of the tubing for that portion of the cage. Looking at the stock setup I have, 2" tubing seems to be good, any Ideas?

Or do I need to scrap this idea and go soke my head ???

any input from the cage Guru's would be welcome as well as all others.
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Old 10-16-2002, 12:20 PM   #2 (permalink)
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At the risk of looking retarded, I´ll take a stab at the calculations...

Assuming a 7000 rpm rev limit, the motor crank would rotate, uh, er, more or less, uh,

7000 times per minute...

And in that rotation:

- one of the four pistons descending, sucking in air
- one of the pistons ascending, compressing to fire
- one of the pistons descending, creating torque
- one of the pistons ascending, pushing out exhaust gases

Therefore, we can conclude that in each rotation, the engine would suck in air = 1/4 of its displacement.

Therefore:

1300 / 4 * 7000 = 2275 cubic centimeters per minute

1600 / 4 * 7000 = 2800 cc / min

Now, in Imperial units:

2275 cc / min = 139 ci / min
2800 cc / min = 171 ci / min

=================

or not...........
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Old 10-16-2002, 12:24 PM   #3 (permalink)
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math geek


i can't remember the formula, but also take into consideration that for every right angle bend, you lose a certain percentage of efficiency in air flow, or some such thing
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Old 10-16-2002, 12:37 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Thumbs up Thanks.......

That may just do it for me. I was hoping that someone could back up my math.
With your calculations, 2" tubing will be fine for the downtube, the stock airbox will supliment the intake under full throtle for a few seconds until the airflow in the tube can speed up and increase the Ram effect. I'll just put on a bell-mouth looking thingy to grab more air when driving.

So what do you think of the Idea? does it deserve more time into it? or scrap it?

The goal here is to get a snorkle, yet keep it as small as possable. besides the Exo-Cage dont do much most of the time anyhow, so just baffle that tube to make it water tight and cut in an intake at the top of the cage.......It sounds good at least
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Old 10-16-2002, 12:39 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by UZI 9mm
math geek

http://www.nylug.org/images/adler_im...lug_booth.jpg?

I´m the guy on the far right with the red hat...........

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Old 10-16-2002, 12:44 PM   #6 (permalink)
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i can't remember the formula, but also take into consideration that for every right angle bend, you lose a certain percentage of efficiency in air flow, or some such thing
Yup, still figuring out the twists and turns for it. I think I can get the bend down to 4, maybe even 3. then I can adjust the size a bit to compensate for them......or maybe put in a bit larger air-box

I dont want to have a repeat of the last swamping

thanks for the input
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Old 10-16-2002, 12:48 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by billj


http://www.nylug.org/images/adler_im...lug_booth.jpg?

I´m the guy on the far right with the red hat...........


ack! bahahahahaha

ok,to be honest i'm jealous of math geeks
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Old 10-16-2002, 12:51 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Hmmmm.....

The 60's were VERY good to you it seems!!!!

just cant seem to sell that new fangled Brain-Pan Cooler idea to the up and comming Geeks, HUH?

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Old 10-16-2002, 12:51 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Thanks.......

Quote:
Originally posted by Orionn
That may just do it for me. I was hoping that someone could back up my math.
With your calculations, 2" tubing will be fine for the downtube, the stock airbox will supliment the intake under full throtle for a few seconds until the airflow in the tube can speed up and increase the Ram effect. I'll just put on a bell-mouth looking thingy to grab more air when driving.

So what do you think of the Idea? does it deserve more time into it? or scrap it?

If it were me, I´d go a little bigger, at least 2 1/2".

A 2" exhaust belching out volume under pressure is a LOT more efficient than a 2" intake trying to inhale.........
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Old 10-16-2002, 12:58 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Sucking fumes.....

Your right, I may need to goto 2 1/2" but I need to check the design and test the flow first (good ol' fashoned R+D stuff).

Then i can start to play with it, but I am leaning to 2", the stock system uses that I think for its main intake
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Old 10-16-2002, 01:16 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Ok not sure if anyone has mantioned a praticle solution....

Build your cage, then add a snorkle after words...

Then if you need to make adjustments it won't be a big deal, plus you'll be able to use PVC or other lighter material wich would likley weigh less than the delta stepping up to 2.5" tube for the cage... -yag
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Old 10-16-2002, 02:19 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I'm with Zukpuke.
Go with a separate snorkel.

To calculate what you need, I need the CFM from the carb and the pressure loss due to air filter, length of pipe, and number of bends.

Wait, I'm not a t work, what was I thinking.
2-inch, even 2.5-inch is likely too small if you extend the lengths over 12 to 24 inches. The length is big part of the problem.
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Old 10-16-2002, 07:33 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Yer better off with a seperate snork figure the rough opening of the carb at 2-3/8 I think so you dont want to go smaller and you always want more then you can put out the exhaust. You get the drift. beside the only ram effect you would get is if the truck is moving not gong to help when it is stuck up to the winshield in mud
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Old 10-16-2002, 07:35 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by billj


http://www.nylug.org/images/adler_im...lug_booth.jpg?

I´m the guy on the far right with the red hat...........

Have you ever thought of Modeling for a toy company you would make a good troll
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Old 10-16-2002, 07:57 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I think it is a good idea but you are gonna need bigger than 2" to get the full potential out of your motor. If you don't run WOT much who cares.

I agree it will be the length causing the most pressure loss, not the bends.

The only thing I worried about when I was thinking of this was all the water from the air getting inside the cage and rusting. Was thinking of painting/swabbing the inside of the tubes that were connected to the intake.
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Old 10-16-2002, 08:25 PM   #16 (permalink)
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A short radius 90 is = to about 6 ft of straight pipe
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Old 10-16-2002, 10:47 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Go Big Pipe

My 4 inch ABS Pipe doesn't obstruct my view, and seems to flow enough for my 1.9 td, a real air flow hog. My 2" staight exhaust however is like a leaf blower.
http://www.pbase.com/image/5762071
pretty good view of the snorkel here. You could make just the one piece big, the rest of the cage normal(lighter). I hope you do it so I can copy and learn from your mistakes.
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Old 10-17-2002, 05:49 AM   #18 (permalink)
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i agree with Erik. i had a snorkel on my old rig that had a healthy 327.my snorkel looked just like Erik's. 4in pvc with a turndown.i also put a T right before the air box with a plug to act as a sediment bowl. if you dont have the turn down,,rain and all kinds of stuff will get in
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Old 10-17-2002, 06:06 AM   #19 (permalink)
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well....

Thanks for all the input, I have rethought the whole thing, and I am still a bit up in the air. I just want o snorkle thats more durable than PCV in a roll over. I may go with a seperate one as you have all suggested, I just may make it out of smoething a bit softer than PVC, so if it does get crushed it will pop bck to shape, and still be water tight, or with a light steel conduit type construction.

The sugestion for a sediment bowl is good, I was going to do something like that, just had not gotten that far yet.

the Corrosion of the steel I dont think is a probelm, at least no more than the rest of the cage if it gets submerged.

Just wanting to try something different, other than laying down the big bucks for a Safari Snorkle or somthing.....I saw an OD XJ with a simular setup that I want, but it was armour for the PVC tube to protect it.

How about using 3-4" radiator type hose for the body with a metal elboes and bellmouth?
that way it would not crush in a rollover, and be very durable.
not to mention that it would be only a bit heavier than the PVC one.

Keep the Ideas comming!!!

Thanks
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Old 10-17-2002, 09:20 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Trail Repair

Keep in mind that with a can of pipe solvent the sewer pipe can be repaired pretty easy(as long as you find most the pieces), to get out of where you got into, and the cost is nice and low. You get to try things out without investing too much, also.
For the sediment bowl, I have a rubber drip tube from an older 6.9 Ford air cleaner - it is water tight when submerged, but lets water run freely out when not held close by water pressure. Other versions of the same thing could be used.
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