VRAY 2006 E450 - Ambulance Cummins Diesel Swap

[yager]

redheep - stop on by anytime.. Lots of aluminum so I'm sure you will feel at home

Ya reusing the ford computer would be way cool and solve a lot of issues... But sadly I only see it talked about as being a cool idea. not that anyone has or is planning to do it.

Maybe a ford engineer can give me a shout. I think with some basic re-tuning it would work pretty simply. The FICM seems to do a lot of the 'diesel' operations, vs the computer, with some enabling/disabling of some inputs/output the PCM is looking for it would be a simple job with the right equipment. Simply put some of the various engine inputs to a safe value, or add sensors as needed and possible to the engine.

[gavan]

Ford programing would still put your shift points waaayyyy too high, but a good tuner might be able to lower them for you. If you got the Ford controller working (crank sensor, not impossible, TPS, which will be difficult, but maybe you could add a pull cable to the original pedal? dodge tps is not where near the same thing, and a handful of other sensors) you would still need one of the tuner guys to jack around with the line pressure and shift points. They charge by the hour and it ain't cheap...

[redheep]

It might be worth it to contact someone like Eric at Innovative Diesel and see how much work would be involved. I have 3 tunes from him and it cost me $150. Granted, they are "custom" tunes, but that just means they're programmed to whatever strategy the computer has. I didn't like how hard the tranny shifted, so he's also played with line pressures and shift points for me and emailed them back.

It might not be as expensive as you think, if he only has to modify one of the programs he's already created.

[gavan]

Originally Posted by redheep

It might not be as expensive as you think, if he only has to modify one of the programs he's already created.

IF... I am sure he does not have stripped out trans only programming

I talked to Jody (DPTuner) about custom tunes, and I have the same deal, a couple things changed here and there to make it "custom" for not much money. But, this will be a lot of "custom" tuning. I have looked at the logic a little, and I am very sure no one has tried to strip it down to the point of just running the transmission - it is not just as easy as moving a couple ASCII characters around like a "custom" tune is.

I have driven a crap load of 5r110s and I agree with everyone that IN THE FORD CONFIGURATION, BEHIND A FORD MOTOR, WITH STOCK OR SLIGHTLY MODIFIED FORD PROGRAMMING, they are one of the nicer transmissions I have ever driven.

Here is my view on the transmission deal:

You pay 2-3 grand on a new torque converter, adapter plate, different starter (IIRC, they use a 6.0 starter, so you are good there if you have not sold it yet...) and tuning/custom tuner and you still have:

1. A transmission with a questionable history, that will be $$$ to replace if it goes bad
2. A jumble of electronics stabbed together or a custom $$$ transmission controller you need to worry about going bad
3. A promise of "It will probably work with a bunch or programming" or "it should work great, because the one in my stock truck is awesome!!!" or "The 5r110 shifts awesome behind the 6.0, so of course it will be great behind your 5.9..."
4. A jumble of shit you might need to replace later if it does not work.

Honestly, I have never seen a _LONG TERM_ installation of a 5r110 behind a cummins. The torque curve of the 5.9 is so different than the 6.0 I am not even 100% sure the transmission will last. After driving them for 100s of thousands of miles, I think they shift so nice because the ramp up line pressures and kind of "slide" into gear, which works well with the 6.0 because of the variable turbo and electronic ignition they can use a lot of torque management schemes to make this transmission last and shift well behind the 6.0. I have been able to "confuse" the logic in the 5r110 upon occasion, and it slips and bangs just like any other transmission. I confuse it by getting on and off the throttle a couple times in short succession, which is required sometimes in emergency traffic driving. So the transmission seems to shift without the engine slacking off a little, and it feels like a normal transmission, not a usually awesome 5r110. My concern is the 5.9 mechanical motor will be at whatever power it is, and the 5r110 will not have the luxury of engine management tricks to smooth out the shifts.

If I had to guess, that is why everyone with a PCS box says the trans shifts "slow". I would guess it is shifting it "normally", but without a little break in torque output to help it lock in, the full torque is slipping the clutches a little longer.

Of course, this brings up another problem. Max torque of a 5.9 is at 1600 RPMS. Max torque of the 6.0 is at 2000 RPMs. 400 RPMS might not sound like much, but in the transmission world this could mean a lot. Who knows. Centrifugal forces change a lot in 400 RPMS, as can pump pressures and clutch loads. I could see a "great" transmission at 2000 RPM max torque turning into a "trash" transmission at 1600 max torque because of the difference in torque curves alone.

Last thing - Cummins motors can make a nasty harmonic at low RPMs. It is one of the big contributors to the 5th gear nut problems with the original nv4500s (Ever wonder why it does not back off other applications?) and it just hammers transmissions, which is why a lot of the upgrades in diesel transmissions revolve around swapping out bushings for Torrington bearings and messing with the clutch packs - trying to cushion out that harmonic. Will that harmonic effect a 5r110? Who knows.

SO, it is going to be 2-3k to guinea pig these issues in your tow rig. It could be awesome, or you could be fucking with it for the next several months/years to get it "just right".

3-4k will put in one heck of a built 47rh that has been tested, run, and tuned with the 5.9 for many years and should be just about trouble free.

BUT, this is Pirate, and no one here has ever shied away from a challenge...

[gavan]

If anyone is wondering why I am so annoyed with automatic transmissions and Cummins right now I helped a friend go through a huge fight to get a BUILT 700r4, built for a low RPM torque TBI383, with a proper diesel torque converter and diesel governor, to work "correctly" with a 4BT.

Lots of "tricks", up to and including welding extra weight to the governor, and the final solution was to swap in a 47rh from a 6bt:shake:

The 700r4 does fine behind the 6.2/6.5, but could not work out well with the 4BT.

[GONRACIN]

man, a 5.9 Cummins powered E-Super Duty 4x4 Dually Ambulance would make a fucking sweet tow bitch/RV :drool:

I can't wait to see how this turns out

[redheep]

Gavan, decaf bro



I hear you. I don't know what's involved, just spitballing options. If yagar decides to take the engine and tranny out together, I bet that's a nice offset to the cost of a tranny for behind the cummins. I've seen used drivetrains go for some cash.

[gavan]

Originally Posted by redheep

Gavan, decaf bro

Decaf is the drink of losers!!! (maybe I should look into it)

[lurchseesu]

Originally Posted by gavan

They made manual E-series vans till 92 or 93, there are factory clutch pedals for the new body style van. It is not the biggest pedal area, but the clutch fits just fine.

A bit late on this, but I've driven a manual Econoline. I have massive feet and it still wasn't that bad.

[yager]

Quick update on this, have a deposit on the 6.0 engine. Guy came the other night, while I didn't understand every word he said, his cash was green...

My plan is to do a body list as part of this engine swap and I figured it will make old engine removal and new engine placement easier with the cab lifted up. So I've started work to lift the cab up. The 4 rear most body bolts came out without too much trouble and the cab/box bolts are already mostly exposed. They are just 3/8s fasteners.

Depending on wiring/cables/brakes etc.. I'd like to lift the cab up 6"-8" if possible. More/less shove some cribbing in between the frame/body to hold it up. I can c-clamp the interior to the box to help keep it up to the box.

Look for some pics as this part progresses...

Lastly.... Jake (Pic_Jon) so kindly sold me his old turbo to a fair sum, its an early HX35 with external/bolt on waste gate. Very similar to the 1HCW that was stock on the 94 engine. Seems plow trucks suffer more on the right side due to turbo heat as well as plow angle allowing snow/water etc to more readily target that side. The original turbo was heavily rusted and almost every bolt broke off upon disassembly. Not a huge deal, I had fully expected some issues due to the nature of the donor truck. Plans are for a stock rebuild and stock compressor wheel. (Some small damage to the wheel but no housing damage.)

The externally mounted bolt on waste gate will make it easier to adapt it to a new position when the turbo is mounted with the yet to be located bus/industrial/ford exhaust manifold.


Manual Trans..... Man if I could find a pedal assembly I would give it some serious thought... Wife has agreed to learn to drive a stick shift for basic highway driving.. so that's not an issue...

[lurchseesu]

Could a pedal assembly from this style of Econoline be adapted or is their just too much difference?


Don't think they ever made a manual E after that gen.

[BassnTruck]

Someone claims they did offer a manual in the 93+ but I have never seen one. Try going down to the local Ford dealer and look up a 93 van and see.

[87manche]

I went to fordparts.com

dropped in 1995 E-250 and search "clutch pedal"

I got numbers for bushings and bellcranks, so I guess it does exist.

[yager]

Sweet thanks for the tips !! If i could find a pedal setup it would definitely help push me in that direction... Other than buying new dealer parts, is there a place I could ask/request these parts.. I'd pay a fair price but beyond that I'll slam a willwood pedal on the floor or firewall..

Motor is 1/2 out... I need to snap some pics !!! What a shoe horn job ! Van looks funny with whole front end and bumper removed..

[yager]

6ohno pulled out... All things considered it wasn't too bad... while it was a lot of work and fords shoe horn job made it difficult to get some items off, it went well.. Ended up jacking up the cab and making a lifting bar. Raised it 4" initially but had to go to 7" (2 4x4 sticks) higher to clear the oil pan. With a lift bar modification it would have cleared with 5" I think.. All said and done if the buy wasn't in such a hurry initially we should have lifted the cab in the beginning as it would have eased much of the work...

Have several pics of the progress and the cab lifted up.. Even if I don't end up with a body lift, it wasn't very difficult to do and I will make the lift procedure part of my plans should I need to do any serious engine work.

Ill be revising the body bolts, the rear main 4 mounts weren't too bad but they were already starting to set up to be future problems. The front 2 were total POS, ended up making a tool to grab the 2 flats on the lower bushing/mount. The nut was encased/recessed in the bushing and no way to get to it. No holes in the frame, nada.. I will drill them out and use regular nut/bolts..

pics later...
now with pics !!!
Few pre engine pull, 1 with 7" bpdy lift. Last 2 are with 1.5" lift (2x4) for reference.

[me2]

Originally Posted by yager

2) 5R110 2wd already in the rig, 102k seemed to shift just dandy on the ride home..
Id need $850 adapter, lower stall/better $converter$ and stand along controller $800
so say $2500

There are several threads on powerstrokearmy about people who have used a 5R110 behind 5.9s. It ain't pretty.

4wd will come at a later date regardless... I'd rather not think a transfer case makes or breaks the decision on which transmission... I'm sure down the road an atlas or something else would be possible...
Thoughts/Input?

If you want to use a Ford or Dodge transmission and the transfer case that goes with it (highly recommended) , you need to start with the 4x4 version of the transmission. I would avoid starting with a 2WD transmission and then having to redo the swap (at least the transmission part) when you add 4WD.

Carry on.

[yager]

I'm exploring some options of using a air/water intercooler type setup.

After the motor was pulled out and I got things cleaned up a bit, I did a quick 2 sec test fit of the dodge intercooler. It's much too wide. Obviously I have no idea how much room I'll have until I hang the engine in there but knowing it will be a tight fit has me evaluating some options..

I have plenty of room down under the van cab and box to mount a cooler/fan unit. A small water/air unit would allow the current radiator to be pulled forward some and easily make more room.

So anyone have any experience with a water/air type of setup ?

[y2knole]

starting to regret just not buttoning the 6.0 up yet and making that reliable?

[87manche]

too wide as in thick? Or too wide as in won't fit in the grill opening?

What about a top mount intercooler, you could feed it from a hood scoop.

I think the 1badb2 idi build was using an air/water intercooler. maybe, my memory sucks.

[pic_jon]

Originally Posted by y2knole

starting to regret just not buttoning the 6.0 up yet and making that reliable?

Nahhhh I doubt that! He prefers a vehicle to challenge him while it's still in the driveway, not 1500miles from home

He'll figure it out without using a For Sale Sign

[yager]

Originally Posted by y2knole

starting to regret just not buttoning the 6.0 up yet and making that reliable?

Thanks Jake ! Regrets --- LOL... Actually..... HELL NO ! After pulling that POS out of the van last weekend I'm even more sure I made the right decision.

After lifting the cab up to pull the engine out, that removed any remaining doubt I had about the install going well.

I do find it funny that people seem to think this is a big project. People can build 100k IFS KOH buggys that clearly have more technical challenges they over come and not find fault, but actually build a tow rig and ohh my gosh !!!

Or maybe it's just my past, which on the outside I could see how someone might not be able to see past my chronic project-itus.

[y2knole]

Originally Posted by yager

Thanks Jake ! Regrets --- LOL... Actually..... HELL NO ! After pulling that POS out of the van last weekend I'm even more sure I made the right decision.

After lifting the cab up to pull the engine out, that removed any remaining doubt I had about the install going well.

I do find it funny that people seem to think this is a big project. People can build 100k IFS KOH buggys that clearly have more technical challenges they over come and not find fault, but actually build a tow rig and ohh my gosh !!!

Or maybe it's just my past, which on the outside I could see how someone might not be able to see past my chronic project-itus.

cool to hear. and there wasnt any 'weight' or 'implication' hinted behind that question, was just curious. glad you're plowin fwd with a full steam. very cool project for sure!

[Soundguy]

Originally Posted by y2knole

starting to regret just not buttoning the 6.0 up yet and making that reliable?

Have you seen his other hauler/trailer builds? I'm surprised he hasn't decided to swap in the interior from a Vette yet... he likes difficult.

[y2knole]

Originally Posted by Soundguy

Have you seen his other hauler/trailer builds? I'm surprised he hasn't decided to swap in the interior from a Vette yet... he likes difficult.

NOW THAT YOU MENTION IT...

This gague cluster hooked to a 12v would be tits:



now get crackin! :o

[87manche]

Originally Posted by y2knole

NOW THAT YOU MENTION IT...

This gague cluster hooked to a 12v would be tits:



now get crackin! :o

it would be, but he'd need to redo the tach to account for the 3200 RPM redline. So get out your soldering iron and start moving LED segments!!