Helper springs...what would this screw up? - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > General Tech > Tow Rigs and Trailers
Notices

Reply
 
Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-08-2003, 09:18 AM   #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Member # 15403
Posts: 48
Helper springs...what would this screw up?

I just put 2500lb hellwig helper springs on my 2000 Z71. These are the big ones (one piece, large leaves mounted over the factory ones) They are great except for one problem....they make the rear of my truck sit up higher than I would like. I have the springs a their lowest setting. At this setting it still sits about 1 1/2 inches higher than I would like. Also, having them at this low setting also makes them closer to the bed and they will infact hit if the truck is (very) overloaded or articulates a lot.

I thought about this:

What if I took the 2" block out of the rear and then cranked up the helper springs to level it back out? I would either put back in a 1" block or just let it ride as is and just crank the springs some more.


I could probably get another 4" or so of lift out of them so getting the rear end up would not be a problem.

Can anyone see any problems with this? Other than having to buy new u-bolts I can't see a problem. Would it stress the factory leaves too much? Anything else?
__________________
2004.5 GMC CC SWB 4wd 2500HD LLY/Alli
1995 Chevrolet ext-cab SWB 4x4
1984 Chevrolet LWB 4x4 6.2
1972 GMC Jimmy 4x4
DuckhunterInTN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2003, 06:45 PM   #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4878
Location: Bremerton, WA
Posts: 7,668
Send a message via ICQ to Travis Waldher Send a message via MSN to Travis Waldher Send a message via Yahoo to Travis Waldher
Do you have a lift?

Now, granted this is a dodge, but I am running those same OL springs and have mine cranked up a little. I think it raised the back of my truck up 1" or so at most.

Part of your problem might be those soft cheap ass springs chevy likes to put in 1/2 ton (err 1/4 ton) trucks.
Travis Waldher is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 10-10-2003, 06:32 AM   #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Member # 15403
Posts: 48
Uh huh.....thanks for the great, helpful information....


Your answer has basically nothing to do with the question I asked.....if you can't post something helpful, fawk off......


and no....there is no lift on the truck.
__________________
2004.5 GMC CC SWB 4wd 2500HD LLY/Alli
1995 Chevrolet ext-cab SWB 4x4
1984 Chevrolet LWB 4x4 6.2
1972 GMC Jimmy 4x4
DuckhunterInTN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2003, 06:35 AM   #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4878
Location: Bremerton, WA
Posts: 7,668
Send a message via ICQ to Travis Waldher Send a message via MSN to Travis Waldher Send a message via Yahoo to Travis Waldher
You want some helpful information?

Don't fawk around with it and go get some decent springs for the ass end of that truck. This isn't a chevy slam, but I have NEVER seen a stock chevy 1/2 ton with springs in it that are rated for 1/2 ton duty. IMO THATS part of your problem.


When you put those stiff hellwigs on, it caused those soft springs to bow up more than most trucks would have.


Fix it right, fix it once, get some new springs.
Travis Waldher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2003, 07:54 AM   #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Member # 15403
Posts: 48
Ok, see, that was helpful. Thanks.

I was trying to understand how having soft springs would make the truck too high...but I see what you mean about bowing up.

The only thing is is that I already bought my helper springs, so I'm not going to go get a set of heavier springs...just for an occasional pull. I do like the adjustability that they offer vs. just some heavier springs.

I'd be happy with the springs on these trucks, more or less, (they are definately geared more towards ride than carrying capacity) but I've got my torsion bars turned up so the truck sits level. So, whenever I hook up anything behind the truck it makes it sag. If I ran at the factory rake it would be ok.

My question is this: Will running with the springs bowed up more mess them up? As in, when I take my lift blocks out and crank up the helpers some to get it back level.

I don't see how it would be too much different than an add-a-leaf.
__________________
2004.5 GMC CC SWB 4wd 2500HD LLY/Alli
1995 Chevrolet ext-cab SWB 4x4
1984 Chevrolet LWB 4x4 6.2
1972 GMC Jimmy 4x4
DuckhunterInTN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2003, 08:06 PM   #6 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Member # 17136
Location: Shoemakersville, PA
Posts: 546
I see two problems, first, if you remove blah, blah, blah, then you crank the overloads up, isn't it going to ride rough??

second, 2000pound overloads on a chevy, dodge, toyota...any 1/2 ton does one thing...makes you OVERLOAD the rear axle. Those rear axles are not designed to carry a lot of weight...I did say a lot of weight! Keep in mind that you now will be able to not only overload your rear axle, but most likely your tires and your stock springs...you may actually bend your springs where the helwigs clamp onto them. That is if those don't have frame mounted bumpers like the factory setups and they do use the springs as a support. And too boot, you might not be able to stop?

Just keep that in mind...I don't care what you drive, but use common sense when loading cause now you won't know when you've overdid it...it won't sag!

steved
steved is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2003, 09:10 AM   #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4878
Location: Bremerton, WA
Posts: 7,668
Send a message via ICQ to Travis Waldher Send a message via MSN to Travis Waldher Send a message via Yahoo to Travis Waldher
Quote:
Originally posted by steved
I see two problems, first, if you remove blah, blah, blah, then you crank the overloads up, isn't it going to ride rough??

second, 2000pound overloads on a chevy, dodge, toyota...any 1/2 ton does one thing...makes you OVERLOAD the rear axle. Those rear axles are not designed to carry a lot of weight...I did say a lot of weight! Keep in mind that you now will be able to not only overload your rear axle, but most likely your tires and your stock springs...you may actually bend your springs where the helwigs clamp onto them. That is if those don't have frame mounted bumpers like the factory setups and they do use the springs as a support. And too boot, you might not be able to stop?

Just keep that in mind...I don't care what you drive, but use common sense when loading cause now you won't know when you've overdid it...it won't sag!

steved
that is one thing, cranking the overloads up, WILL stiffen the ride up.

but, the other part, thats why you get overloads, to maintain your ride heigh when loaded to it's capacity. It also helps control bouncing when loaded to capacity.

Yes, I use them because my truck is occasionally overloaded to 2-2,500lb. Now, wear on axle bearings is the biggest concern if you REALLY overload it, or overload it a little very frequently. But stopping is generally not an issue, unless of course you were REALLLLY overloaded. 2,000-2,500lbs for a 1/2 ton truck does not constitute REALLY overloaded IMO.
Travis Waldher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2003, 03:23 PM   #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Member # 17136
Location: Shoemakersville, PA
Posts: 546
Why would springs control bounce unless you went to the point of stiffness they would not bend? Shocks control how much bounce you have even loaded...not enough shock will give more bounce. And with a load, you would be surprised how much tires contribute to bounce.

And, sorry, but adding springs gives you no added capacity. Your truck is rated at XXX pounds, Adding springs only makes it ride level at the same XXX pounds, while making it ride stiff at normal load. And if you think that you are not taking a risk of breaking an axle by loading your truck w/ 2500 pounds...yes added wear is bad, but breaking an axle is catastrophic and it happens. If the manufacture had designed your half ton to carry 3/4 ton, then why are there 3/4 ton trucks?

It is good to keep a level ride while loaded, however, most people add these helper (crutch) springs to increase the amount of weight they can carry, not to level what they are supposed to carry. IMO, if you need helpers rated at 2500 pounds, you should have bought a 3/4 or 1-ton. If you need 2500 pounds of additional lift, then you are carrying too much.

Again, I don't care what you do to your truck, just remember you are not the only one on the road and all it would take is one time of something happening (break a spring, blow a tire, or break an axle) to cause an accident in which you are not the only one involved...just be safe.

steved
steved is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2003, 05:50 PM   #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Member # 15403
Posts: 48
steved,
I don't plan on overloading mine at all. The only reason I put these springs on there because I have my torsion bars all cranked up so the truck sits level and the soft springs on my truck will sag with a 4-wheeler or a trailer on the back. You can imagine how much it sags with a 5000lb trailer behind it. I personally think that I am being much safer because I now have a level truck and don't have a light frontend any more...
__________________
2004.5 GMC CC SWB 4wd 2500HD LLY/Alli
1995 Chevrolet ext-cab SWB 4x4
1984 Chevrolet LWB 4x4 6.2
1972 GMC Jimmy 4x4
DuckhunterInTN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2003, 07:44 PM   #10 (permalink)
vb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Member # 15547
Location: co
Posts: 594
it might be too late for you . but for others that read this my suggestion would be to get air bags. the 5k set works great. with load you dail em in quickly , w/o load you let the air out and viola, no problem with the but end up
__________________
post 980 virtual protest
i am fighting a battle for a public road. will you help me
vb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2003, 09:02 PM   #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4878
Location: Bremerton, WA
Posts: 7,668
Send a message via ICQ to Travis Waldher Send a message via MSN to Travis Waldher Send a message via Yahoo to Travis Waldher
Quote:
Originally posted by steved
Why would springs control bounce unless you went to the point of stiffness they would not bend? Shocks control how much bounce you have even loaded...not enough shock will give more bounce. And with a load, you would be surprised how much tires contribute to bounce.
Obviously someone that knows LITTLE about suspension. I don't know everything, but I do know something about this particular subject.

Stiffer springs will absorb bounces while driving down the road better than the stock springs. I know this, because I USE overload springs, and that was one of the biggest reasons I put them on.

When I have 600-700lbs of tongue weight with a trailer, the stock springs can't absorb the weight as well without the overloads in place. This controls the amount of bounce that occurs and helps to maintain vehicle control.

Quote:
Originally posted by steved
And, sorry, but adding springs gives you no added capacity. Your truck is rated at XXX pounds, Adding springs only makes it ride level at the same XXX pounds, while making it ride stiff at normal load. And if you think that you are not taking a risk of breaking an axle by loading your truck w/ 2500 pounds...yes added wear is bad, but breaking an axle is catastrophic and it happens. If the manufacture had designed your half ton to carry 3/4 ton, then why are there 3/4 ton trucks?
If this a JU answer or what. The manufacturer designs (at least the dodge) 1/2 tons to haul 1,500lbs, even then that is a conservative number with a safety margin. Hell, I think a 3/4 ton is rated to haul 3,000lbs. Hauling 2,000 lbs in a 1/2 ton is NOT running so far beyond it's load capacity you are becoming a safety hazard. Granted, thats just my opinion, so no one come sueing me.

Yes, there is more wear and tear. When I haul those heavier loads, I also keep an eye on wheelbearing wear, etc.

Quote:
Originally posted by steved
It is good to keep a level ride while loaded, however, most people add these helper (crutch) springs to increase the amount of weight they can carry, not to level what they are supposed to carry. IMO, if you need helpers rated at 2500 pounds, you should have bought a 3/4 or 1-ton. If you need 2500 pounds of additional lift, then you are carrying too much.
Well.. I'll just leave it as your opinion, which on this subject has little value in this thread.

2500lb overloads are there to help control your load, even if your only hauling 1,000lbs, they DO help. But, if you actually used the things, instead of talking out your ass you would know this.

Quote:
Originally posted by steved
Again, I don't care what you do to your truck, just remember you are not the only one on the road and all it would take is one time of something happening (break a spring, blow a tire, or break an axle) to cause an accident in which you are not the only one involved...just be safe.

steved
break a spring - only if WAY overloaded, doesn't sound like what this guy is doing.

Blow a tire - most trucks run D or E rated tires, it's really a non-issue unless your grossly overloaded.

break an axle - again only if your vehicle isn't maintained properly. I've yet to see an axle snap in a truck due to overloading. There are warning signs before things go, and only someone truley ignorant would miss them. And those are the people that would put 2 tons in a ford ranger. Not the guy asking teh questions here.
Travis Waldher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2003, 06:13 AM   #12 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Member # 15403
Posts: 48
Good comments Travis. Just as you stated, my truck used to bounce a lot more with a load than it does now with the helper springs.


vb,
I thought heavily about airbags on my truck but decided against them because of the environment I sometimes drive in. I can just see a cotton stalk or corn stalk hitting one of those airbags just right and puncturing it. Before you say that they are very thick and puncture proof....I have had a cottonstalk go through the sidewall of an 8-ply all-terrain tire so I figure those bags would be no match. Also, the springs were cheaper and adjustable with only a wrench, rather than having to have a compressor or air tank...
__________________
2004.5 GMC CC SWB 4wd 2500HD LLY/Alli
1995 Chevrolet ext-cab SWB 4x4
1984 Chevrolet LWB 4x4 6.2
1972 GMC Jimmy 4x4
DuckhunterInTN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2003, 08:13 AM   #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Member # 17136
Location: Shoemakersville, PA
Posts: 546

Last edited by steved; 10-13-2003 at 08:31 AM.
steved is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2003, 08:17 AM   #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Member # 17136
Location: Shoemakersville, PA
Posts: 546
Oh, sorry, should have pointed out that last post wasn't toward you duckhunter.



steved
steved is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2003, 08:24 AM   #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Member # 17136
Location: Shoemakersville, PA
Posts: 546
Oh, and FYI...my CTD has a GVW of 8800 pounds, empty (unladen, which means NO passengers or toys) is 6400 pounds.

2400 lbs of carrying capacity, if I can still do math. But remember it is a camper special with overloads and rear sway bar. So the 2500 (3/4 tons) are not 3,000 pounds.

Some of you people scare me when you get all fired up! Now if we could get that kind of reaction focused at the right groups!





steved
steved is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.