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Old 04-27-2006, 08:55 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Formula Toy Rules

Just so everyone is clear. The Formula Toy class is a drivers class. It is not a contest to see who can manipulate or over interperate the letter of the written rules. So before someone gets their feelings hurt cause they built an F-toy with some wacked out modification and it get disallowed, please remember this is a "drivers class".
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Old 04-28-2006, 09:27 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Im playing devils advocate on these rules for good reason. Not everyone who builds is on pirate at all, so they will eventually do things that violate the planned general build of these. They are going to be royaly pissed, and the rules will not say anything about their build being illegal. Thats going to cause some interesting times at a comp. The biggest thing I see is the frame rule. Obviously, from the the other thread started, it is unclear about whether dovetailing the frame is allowed. This person could have just built it, and nothing in the rules says he cant do that. Fortunately for him, and the class, he asked. Not everyone will. This class is growing, and rapidly. These things need addressed before it becomes a BIG problem.

That is why Im being a real thorn in your side on the letter of the rules. Its alos why Im more than happy to help rewrite the rules to much more detail so it is clear what is, and what is not allowed.
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Old 04-28-2006, 09:58 AM   #3 (permalink)
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The rules don't need to be rewritten, there just needs to be a statement added
"Only modification specified in the rules will be allowed"
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Old 04-28-2006, 10:01 AM   #4 (permalink)
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D Toy, clean out your BOX.
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Old 04-28-2006, 10:05 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Ellinger
John-

Im playing devils advocate on these rules for good reason. Not everyone who builds is on pirate at all, so they will eventually do things that violate the planned general build of these. They are going to be royaly pissed, and the rules will not say anything about their build being illegal. Thats going to cause some interesting times at a comp. The biggest thing I see is the frame rule. Obviously, from the the other thread started, it is unclear about whether dovetailing the frame is allowed. This person could have just built it, and nothing in the rules says he cant do that. Fortunately for him, and the class, he asked. Not everyone will. This class is growing, and rapidly. These things need addressed before it becomes a BIG problem.

That is why Im being a real thorn in your side on the letter of the rules. Its alos why Im more than happy to help rewrite the rules to much more detail so it is clear what is, and what is not allowed.
Thanks for your interest Brian. I think the BOD are trying to get around having a 50 page rule book. How about adding one rule that states something like this:

"Creative thinking is encouraged but if it doesn't specifically allow it in the rule book, assume that it is not allowed. Consult the Board of Directors with questions."
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Old 04-28-2006, 10:08 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SanDiegoCJ
D Toy, clean out your BOX.
Done
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Old 04-28-2006, 10:20 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertoy
Thanks for your interest Brian. I think the BOD are trying to get around having a 50 page rule book. How about adding one rule that states something like this:

"Creative thinking is encouraged but if it doesn't specifically allow it in the rule book, assume that it is not allowed. Consult the Board of Directors with questions."
That does work, sort of. If Im thinking of something, I have to clear it with the board. Now assume I dont even know of PBB (I live in a shoebox) Who is this Board, and how do I get a hold of them? Plus I now have to divulge my secretsof my build to others that are currently winning in this class.
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Old 04-28-2006, 10:21 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Air Ride
The rules don't need to be rewritten, there just needs to be a statement added
"Only modification specified in the rules will be allowed"
Okay, so I want to replace the stock crossmembers in my ftoy, and eliminate some as well. That is not allowed in the rules, but is an approved practice.
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Old 04-28-2006, 10:45 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Ellinger
That does work, sort of. If Im thinking of something, I have to clear it with the board. Now assume I dont even know of PBB (I live in a shoebox) Who is this Board, and how do I get a hold of them? Plus I now have to divulge my secretsof my build to others that are currently winning in this class.
You have to be able to access the internet to get to the rules. The rules can (or do) have a link on them.
As far a divulging secerets. There is no secerets in building a Formula toy chasis. It is a drivers class.
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Old 04-28-2006, 11:23 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I think a simple start to this would be to have a comprehensive website (formulatoy.com) that has current and updated info like...the W.E.Rock Rules or whatever sanctioning body should be available with a link or hosting the file itself.

Although not everyone is on PBB, they should at a minimum be able to access the Ftoy site and it shouldn't be linked or confused with this BBS. It should contain all the info needed right there without having to search this board.

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Old 04-28-2006, 12:44 PM   #11 (permalink)
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i think brian is right. i have been dreading the day when somene shows up and has done something we all know is illegal but the rules dont say so. also, i am dreading the day when someone shows up with a ftoy that he built and copied mikes design. if mike isnt there with his database, how do i know he didnt buy it from him? these chassis were never marked with plates or anything. that will eventually happen when the class gets bigger.

i think mike is right too. you dont have to add a bunch of specific rules, just a few disclaimers...
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Old 04-28-2006, 01:06 PM   #12 (permalink)
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i think brian is right. i have been dreading the day when somene shows up and has done something we all know is illegal but the rules dont say so. also, i am dreading the day when someone shows up with a ftoy that he built and copied mikes design. if mike isnt there with his database, how do i know he didnt buy it from him? these chassis were never marked with plates or anything. that will eventually happen when the class gets bigger.

i think mike is right too. you dont have to add a bunch of specific rules, just a few disclaimers...
I know theres a bunch of rigs already out there, but to make the plates now and get them to the guys who have already bought rigs wouldn't be hard, and then just include them on all the new ones too.
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Old 04-29-2006, 10:25 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a2b
i think brian is right. i have been dreading the day when somene shows up and has done something we all know is illegal but the rules dont say so. also, i am dreading the day when someone shows up with a ftoy that he built and copied mikes design. if mike isnt there with his database, how do i know he didnt buy it from him? these chassis were never marked with plates or anything. that will eventually happen when the class gets bigger.

i think mike is right too. you dont have to add a bunch of specific rules, just a few disclaimers...
Believe it or not Im not trying to be a royal PITA. I just see some serious loopholes out there. We'll be building ours (dont know #) within the intent and plan of the rules, but there are plenty of things I would like to do (dovetail the rear frame rails) that is not intented to be legal, but is not currently excluded. Writing up some rules governing the frame would be easy enough, especially knowing what you are wanting to allow (notching for steering clearance) and not allow (dovetailing, narrowing, shaving)
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Old 04-29-2006, 07:08 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Ellinger
Believe it or not Im not trying to be a royal PITA. I just see some serious loopholes out there. We'll be building ours (dont know #) within the intent and plan of the rules, but there are plenty of things I would like to do (dovetail the rear frame rails) that is not intented to be legal, but is not currently excluded. Writing up some rules governing the frame would be easy enough, especially knowing what you are wanting to allow (notching for steering clearance) and not allow (dovetailing, narrowing, shaving)
You can modify or fully replace the frame rails but the springs needed to be 29" apart front and rear. Replacment frame rails should be of similar material to stock. You can't replace the frame with 1.5" tubing.
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Old 04-29-2006, 07:11 PM   #15 (permalink)
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A good example is adding a torque rod or inboarding the rear springs. These donít cost much but really help the rig get it on the trail.
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Old 04-30-2006, 10:38 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Geiger
You can modify or fully replace the frame rails but the springs needed to be 29" apart front and rear. Replacment frame rails should be of similar material to stock. You can't replace the frame with 1.5" tubing.

Now this doesn't sound right to me and for several reasons. Are you saying someone could build a frame out of box-style tubing and as long as the axle perch width is 29" F/R it's ok? I'm pretty sure that it is not the intent to allow custom frames, especially as a structural aprt since competitiors are nto allowed to build their own chasis. I think it should eb written something like this:

Stock Toyota truck or 4 runner frame rails must be used, in stock fashion. Factory crossmembers may be modified or replaced to allow clearance for steering, driveliens, etc.

Also, something that has crossed my mind is that as these rigs continue to get used and abused people will (if they haven't already) begin to replace stock chasis tubes. It's the nature of the sport, all comp rigs with a couple of years of use under their belts have tube "patches" in them. Playing devil's advocate here, I can see some of these weekend warrior types that want to bend their own chassis, making a fuss out of this. Since people will be rebuilding their own chassis (no longer cert. manufacturer welds/bends)
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Old 04-30-2006, 03:53 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Stock Toyota truck or 4 runner frame rails must be used, in stock fashion. Factory crossmembers may be modified or replaced to allow clearance for steering, driveliens, etc.
sounds good. i think it should be something like that. i dont agree in making your own frame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson
Also, something that has crossed my mind is that as these rigs continue to get used and abused people will (if they haven't already) begin to replace stock chasis tubes. It's the nature of the sport, all comp rigs with a couple of years of use under their belts have tube "patches" in them. Playing devil's advocate here, I can see some of these weekend warrior types that want to bend their own chassis, making a fuss out of this. Since people will be rebuilding their own chassis (no longer cert. manufacturer welds/bends)

ya i know. that came to my mind about a year ago. its another discrempency. i cant build my own chassis, but i can replace the tubing when it gets bent in really hard ??....just like my pass A pillar. or matt's chassis is pretty bent after werock.
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Old 04-30-2006, 05:02 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I have no proverbial horse in this race, but it's interesting to me nonetheless; I'm not sure why, maybe I just like nitpicking rules and trying to find ways to bend them old-school-Nascar-style ("it's not against the rules till they catch you doing it").

I can build my own chassis (not technically within the rules, but I physically can) and if anybody questions it, all I have to say is "I dunno anything about it, I bought it used from a guy who had it lying around and never did anything with it" and while Mike's database may be all-encompassing now, and adequate to "catch" me at that now, in another year or two, there's just no way he'll be able to track every used sale of his chassis, every reconstruction of them, etc.

I think allowing extensive modification to the frame, is a slippery slope. Allowing replacement of rails with other-than-stock-Toyota rails is really dangerous to consistency; if I want to push things there, all I have to do is claim to have built it once on a Toy frame, torn the rear spring hangers out of the rails, and started over with my own frame, that might only vaguely line up with the Toy frame.

I see the point that this is a drivers' class, but it's also (currently) the class where a really kickass driver and spotter team stand the best chances of making money in this sport; with money, comes a stronger and stronger tendency to push the limits in order to win.

I don't think rules need vastly changed. I do think a number of them need clarified.

With incremental tubing replacement having to happen for safety's sake, I think Ftoy chassis layout needs to simply follow a template. If you have one, you have that template; you may replace tubes in it, but it has to still match the template. It's up to the tech-inspectors to measure it dimensionally to ensure that it matches the template, if there's any doubt. If yours is so damaged that you can't pull critical dimensions off of it to repair it, either (a) take it to Mike and pay him to fix it, or (b) borrow somebody else's chassis to pull those dimensions. I don't really think much (if anything) needs to change in the rulebook in this regard, although "no alteration to Ftoy basic chassis layout (hood, door, bed and roof surrounds, plus pillars) will be permitted" would go a long way towards making sure somebody doesn't rework their wheel arches or the like.

On to the frame:
There is no current spec for where the frame has to be, front to back, under the chassis. Nor is there a spec for how much of the frame you have to keep. Engine setback/lowering is measured off of... the stock motor mounts on the frame? But if I can put the frame anywhere, the engine setback rule is nearly meaningless too (IMHO).

If you spec that the front of the frame must be within a certain distance of a line dropped plumb off of the front of the hood surround (not the grille surround, as that was stated to me as being non-fixed) you improve things vastly.

Has anybody yet cut off the front of the frame? If not, maybe the thing to do is to say "no cutting off the front of the frame; cutting the rear to no shorter than (the length of the Ftoy chassis, X inches less than the Ftoy length, Y inches, etc.) is permitted"

If you want to specify that everybody build identical or near-identical, then specify that the frontmost frame crossmember must be within X many inches of that plumb line off the front edge of the hood surround, the frame must be in its normal Toyota orientation, narrowing the frame is not permitted, and length must be a certain minimum.

Since V6 frames and 4cylinder frames might have different engine mount locations, I would suggest that engine location be specified as a distance from the hood surround to the front of the valvecover (easy to measure, standard) horizontally, and from a level line across the hood, to crank centerline at the front of the engine.

Notching the frame for steering clearance, spring hangers, shock mounts, etc., I see no problem with, but specify that the frame contour must be retained, that if I cut the bottom out for a spring hanger, I have to leave the top unmolested through that area in the stock shape. Maybe the way to phrase that is "notching for clearance and frenching spring hangers is permitted, but no more than 60% of any one dimension of the framerail may be removed in any given notch area" so basically, I can notch/french to just past the halfway point vertically or horizontally, but I can't cut a gap into my frame and call it steering clearance.

If I shouldn't be poking around at you guys, just tell me to STFU and I will.
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Old 04-30-2006, 05:05 PM   #19 (permalink)
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This class is supposed to be a basic budget class, where the driver wins, not the rig. It seems to be getting away from that pretty quickly. Which sucks in my opinion.
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Old 04-30-2006, 05:27 PM   #20 (permalink)
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If a rig doesnt meet the specs it can allways run exibition

No one has had to yet.

I would like to hear some of these ideas, maybe some you dont plan on using,
that would acutually make a rig superior than the current ones.
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Old 04-30-2006, 06:41 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott@Rockstomper
I have no proverbial horse in this race, but it's interesting to me nonetheless; I'm not sure why, maybe I just like nitpicking rules and trying to find ways to bend them old-school-Nascar-style ("it's not against the rules till they catch you doing it").

I can build my own chassis (not technically within the rules, but I physically can) and if anybody questions it, all I have to say is "I dunno anything about it, I bought it used from a guy who had it lying around and never did anything with it" and while Mike's database may be all-encompassing now, and adequate to "catch" me at that now, in another year or two, there's just no way he'll be able to track every used sale of his chassis, every reconstruction of them, etc.

I think allowing extensive modification to the frame, is a slippery slope. Allowing replacement of rails with other-than-stock-Toyota rails is really dangerous to consistency; if I want to push things there, all I have to do is claim to have built it once on a Toy frame, torn the rear spring hangers out of the rails, and started over with my own frame, that might only vaguely line up with the Toy frame.

I see the point that this is a drivers' class, but it's also (currently) the class where a really kickass driver and spotter team stand the best chances of making money in this sport; with money, comes a stronger and stronger tendency to push the limits in order to win.

I don't think rules need vastly changed. I do think a number of them need clarified.

With incremental tubing replacement having to happen for safety's sake, I think Ftoy chassis layout needs to simply follow a template. If you have one, you have that template; you may replace tubes in it, but it has to still match the template. It's up to the tech-inspectors to measure it dimensionally to ensure that it matches the template, if there's any doubt. If yours is so damaged that you can't pull critical dimensions off of it to repair it, either (a) take it to Mike and pay him to fix it, or (b) borrow somebody else's chassis to pull those dimensions. I don't really think much (if anything) needs to change in the rulebook in this regard, although "no alteration to Ftoy basic chassis layout (hood, door, bed and roof surrounds, plus pillars) will be permitted" would go a long way towards making sure somebody doesn't rework their wheel arches or the like.

On to the frame:
There is no current spec for where the frame has to be, front to back, under the chassis. Nor is there a spec for how much of the frame you have to keep. Engine setback/lowering is measured off of... the stock motor mounts on the frame? But if I can put the frame anywhere, the engine setback rule is nearly meaningless too (IMHO).

If you spec that the front of the frame must be within a certain distance of a line dropped plumb off of the front of the hood surround (not the grille surround, as that was stated to me as being non-fixed) you improve things vastly.

Has anybody yet cut off the front of the frame? If not, maybe the thing to do is to say "no cutting off the front of the frame; cutting the rear to no shorter than (the length of the Ftoy chassis, X inches less than the Ftoy length, Y inches, etc.) is permitted"

If you want to specify that everybody build identical or near-identical, then specify that the frontmost frame crossmember must be within X many inches of that plumb line off the front edge of the hood surround, the frame must be in its normal Toyota orientation, narrowing the frame is not permitted, and length must be a certain minimum.

Since V6 frames and 4cylinder frames might have different engine mount locations, I would suggest that engine location be specified as a distance from the hood surround to the front of the valvecover (easy to measure, standard) horizontally, and from a level line across the hood, to crank centerline at the front of the engine.

Notching the frame for steering clearance, spring hangers, shock mounts, etc., I see no problem with, but specify that the frame contour must be retained, that if I cut the bottom out for a spring hanger, I have to leave the top unmolested through that area in the stock shape. Maybe the way to phrase that is "notching for clearance and frenching spring hangers is permitted, but no more than 60% of any one dimension of the framerail may be removed in any given notch area" so basically, I can notch/french to just past the halfway point vertically or horizontally, but I can't cut a gap into my frame and call it steering clearance.

If I shouldn't be poking around at you guys, just tell me to STFU and I will.

what he said. i thought about all this when i built mine. it doesnt take a genius to realize that if the class grows into a nation wide big thing. under the current system, you can track these chassis's and where they are going. we cant track people who have replaced their tubes. i have wanted rules about the frames from the get go. when i went to put my motor in, i saw all the dsicrempencies.
and no one here is saying chagne the rules, just clarirty would be nice.
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Old 04-30-2006, 06:46 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
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This class is supposed to be a basic budget class, where the driver wins, not the rig. It seems to be getting away from that pretty quickly. Which sucks in my opinion.
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Old 04-30-2006, 06:49 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heywood

I would like to hear some of these ideas, maybe some you dont plan on using,
that would acutually make a rig superior than the current ones.

he didnt say he had secrets. but if so i would like to hear them to
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Old 04-30-2006, 07:13 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Florian
This class is supposed to be a basic budget class, where the driver wins, not the rig. It seems to be getting away from that pretty quickly. Which sucks in my opinion.
I have been reading these posts and I have to agree. I was about to order a chassis but I think I will not untill things are worked out. The spirit seems to have been lost in favor of modification just for the sake of modification. If it is going to be a drivers class then make the vehicles even so the driver is the measure of achievement , not the vehicle.
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Old 04-30-2006, 07:57 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlwjaw
I have been reading these posts and I have to agree. I was about to order a chassis but I think I will not untill things are worked out. The spirit seems to have been lost in favor of modification just for the sake of modification. .

things are worked out. you act is if we are inventing the class. the post have been related on some clarifications of rules, not new ones. no spirit has been lost, and what modification? and why you do you care who mods what? all ftoys are the same within reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlwjaw
If it is going to be a drivers class then make the vehicles even so the driver is the measure of achievement , not the vehicle.
are you kidding? "make the vehicles even"? as if its not now? are you aware that we are in a 3rd season of ftoys. there is no more "make". everything is done. the class cant slip into "a non drivers class" if nothing is changing. its the same as it was in the beginning. the last ftoy that won the last comp, is exact same that competed in the first comp 3 years ago.
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