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Old 10-02-2006, 11:20 AM   #1 (permalink)
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FROR's build up plans

Some have asked what were building, and some have the thought we want to build the "tiny" of ftoy.

I was trying/wanting to keep tight lipped about our build plans, but it seems to have given the wrong impression about what our intentions are. So without all the details, here's our plans:

1. starting with 85 std cab truck (our old red truck) REASON: have it already
2. Hop up the RE to run more power, with factory electronics, connect up with ORS harness, REASON: reliable, have it, thinking ~150 hp
3. NOS the motor, blow it up, run a little less NOS, REASON: turbos, SC not class legal, I can pull the bottle for comps.
4. inboard rear springs, REASON: flex
5. lowest FTOY yet, REASON: stability
6. flat belly, REASON: slidability
7. 37" stickies, REASON: sticking to rocks
8. Airbumps, REASON: landing at high speeds, (remember the NOS), landing BIG drops. I plan to be harder on this rig outside of comp than in it. Also the low height seriously limits compression, so I want it smooth.


Non-Class legal things:
disconnect
cutting brakes
FF setup

The FF outers will get swapped out for comps, I was disks for cleaning, reliability, but not class legal. The disco, and brakes with have mechanical pins to lock out for comps.

Any questions?
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Old 10-02-2006, 12:38 PM   #2 (permalink)
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After this weekend.....I vote for rear disc and air bumps!
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Old 10-02-2006, 01:22 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Brian, thanks for the update. I keep hearing that you are dissapointed with the way the rules are being managed in F-Toy. I also keep hearing that you feel that you are being singles out as being problematic. I want to take a minute to clear a few things up.

First of all, The BOD has discussed everyones suggestions including yours and have had long discussions regarding them. We take all suggestions serious but at some point a decision needs to be made. To better understand a decision you need to remember 2 things. This is a budget class designed so the average wheeler can be competitive. Also, this is a drivers class. It is not ment to see how far the rules can be tweaked or how much money one can put into building a chassis ( I am not accusing you of this). The only way you can gain an advantage by spending money in this class is to prep you car better, practice more, or have a big support team on comp day.

As far as the BOD are concerned, we appreciate all you have contributed to this class through sponsership and open discussion. I personally welcome any and all ideas you may have and none of my replies are intended to be disrespectfull or belittling in any way.

That said, the 2007 season rules will be posted soon (days not weeks). If there is any questions or concerns please post them here so that they can be discussed openly. At the same time, be respectful to the class so that we can attract more potential competitors and try not to scare them off by not accepting the end result of a decision (I am not accusing you of this either).

I am looking foreward to friendly competition in the 2007 season.
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Old 10-02-2006, 07:31 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertoy
Brian, thanks for the update. I keep hearing that you are dissapointed with the way the rules are being managed in F-Toy. I also keep hearing that you feel that you are being singles out as being problematic. I want to take a minute to clear a few things up.

First of all, The BOD has discussed everyones suggestions including yours and have had long discussions regarding them. We take all suggestions serious but at some point a decision needs to be made. To better understand a decision you need to remember 2 things. This is a budget class designed so the average wheeler can be competitive. Also, this is a drivers class. It is not ment to see how far the rules can be tweaked or how much money one can put into building a chassis ( I am not accusing you of this). The only way you can gain an advantage by spending money in this class is to prep you car better, practice more, or have a big support team on comp day.
As for feeling problematic, yes, and sometimes rightfully so. I would like to see the class grow. For the class to grow, it needs "real" rules if you will. Using the airbump thread as an example. They were "disadvantage", and "legal". Shortly later I stated our plans. Then the thread changed, and a lot of talk of making them illegal. I would have to wonder how the thread would have gone if I had not posted.

As you mentioned, the class should stay a "driver's class" By keeping the rules to limit what can be done for advantages. Obviously, there will be different rigs built. This makes sense. What doesnt make sense to me is limiting what can be done that is not an advantage, again bumpstop, rear disks. Our current plans does better on sidehills, but would stink on breakover.

Whatever the rules are need to be consistant and thorough. Ive asked about FF and disks since inception. While Im not happy with the ruling, I can deal with it. When the rules have no rules regarding things (frame length, bump stops, steering box, frame notching) This makes things very confusing. If this class is going to grow, these things need dealt with one way or another.

When things are brought up, I would like to see a reasoning whether they should or should not be allowed. I think this would be beneficial to everyone involved. Heck, maybe having the BOD discussions public on different subjects may be a good thing.
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Old 10-02-2006, 08:19 PM   #5 (permalink)
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If there are any rule changes to be made, make them soon! I don't want to tear too much stuff apart right away.

I have to agree with Brian, we need solid rules. The sooner the better. Building within the "sprit" of the class is the main reason I wanted to build a F-toy. But it's a moving target. For the most part it's all happening in socal with a bunch of guy's that for the most part know each other. It's a pretty big disconnect for the rest of us.
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Old 10-02-2006, 09:23 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Ellinger
As for feeling problematic, yes, and sometimes rightfully so. I would like to see the class grow. For the class to grow, it needs "real" rules if you will. Using the airbump thread as an example. They were "disadvantage", and "legal". Shortly later I stated our plans. Then the thread changed, and a lot of talk of making them illegal. I would have to wonder how the thread would have gone if I had not posted.

As you mentioned, the class should stay a "driver's class" By keeping the rules to limit what can be done for advantages. Obviously, there will be different rigs built. This makes sense. What doesnt make sense to me is limiting what can be done that is not an advantage, again bumpstop, rear disks. Our current plans does better on sidehills, but would stink on breakover.

Whatever the rules are need to be consistant and thorough. Ive asked about FF and disks since inception. While Im not happy with the ruling, I can deal with it. When the rules have no rules regarding things (frame length, bump stops, steering box, frame notching) This makes things very confusing. If this class is going to grow, these things need dealt with one way or another.

When things are brought up, I would like to see a reasoning whether they should or should not be allowed. I think this would be beneficial to everyone involved. Heck, maybe having the BOD discussions public on different subjects may be a good thing.
The more I read, the more I am convinced that this is the wrong class for you Brian.
The rules are clear cut. It's a Toyota pickup with a tube chassis welded in place of the body. Nothing more unless the rules spell it out.
A 6 foot pole sticking out of the top of the rig doesn't gain you anything either and it is not allowed either. No matter how many times you ask, disc brakes will never be allowed. Why? Because drums are sufficient.
Quit trying to think out of the box and get your rig done, so you can use all of this pent up though to strategize on the course.
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Old 10-02-2006, 09:27 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azyota
If there are any rule changes to be made, make them soon! I don't want to tear too much stuff apart right away.

I have to agree with Brian, we need solid rules. The sooner the better. Building within the "sprit" of the class is the main reason I wanted to build a F-toy. But it's a moving target. For the most part it's all happening in socal with a bunch of guy's that for the most part know each other. It's a pretty big disconnect for the rest of us.
Don't worry. Your doing fine. Read the stated rules. Ask questions as they arise. I guess they are so simple that it makes them complicated.
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Old 10-03-2006, 10:47 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertoy
The more I read, the more I am convinced that this is the wrong class for you Brian.
The rules are clear cut. It's a Toyota pickup with a tube chassis welded in place of the body. Nothing more unless the rules spell it out.
A 6 foot pole sticking out of the top of the rig doesn't gain you anything either and it is not allowed either. No matter how many times you ask, disc brakes will never be allowed. Why? Because drums are sufficient.
Quit trying to think out of the box and get your rig done, so you can use all of this pent up though to strategize on the course.
Im not even asking about drums. Im asking about other things not mentioned:
bumpstops (urethane, but no air)
rear suck winch (gary)
sticky tires (john, matt)
water in tires (matt)
These are not mentioned in rules at all, so how does that mean Im trying to get around them?

As for thinking outside the box, the only thing Im trying to build is a rig that complies with rules. Not bending the rules, or the idea behind them, but within them. I just need to know what the rules are.

If I have to run poly stops in comp. and air outside of comp fine, just please let me know where to draw the line. Im trying to build within the rules. Thats why the rig hasnt been started, is I need to know what to plan for. Ive asked about nearly everything, some Ive gotten answers on, and some answers conflict.

FYI, at Boyd, at least 4 of the people Dave and I talked to thought ftoy was a socal thing, and if you werent there, you couldnt compete. azyota has some of the same sentiments.
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Old 10-03-2006, 12:12 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I know this has already been beat to death but the disc issue is no big deal to you left coast guys as mud and lots of rain aren't a problem. We however get rain, mud, snow, etc that will kill drum brake shoes in 1 ride. If all I want to do is comps in my rig then it would be no big deal. I would like to be able to trail ride some and the discs would make that more fun. It's not a performance issue. Just a pita to deal will drum brakes out here.

I don't see why rear disconnects aren't legal either? I was given the explanation that "toyota didn't make them so..." Well Toyota didn't make tcase doublers, comp compound tires, winches, beadlock wheels, propane,.... Rear discos aren't really that expensive either. I don't really care that much about the disconnect issue just adds more backups but even that isn't bad as it factors into the strategy of a course. Just using disconnects as an example.

I'd like to see a more definitive set of rules. As was mentioned above I know the center of the Ftoy universe is in SOCAL but i'm a long way from there and what seems to make perfect sense to you guys may not be so obvious to me. I'd like to build my rig to work good at comps but also be a fun trail rig.

My .02 worth.
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Old 10-03-2006, 01:18 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Ellinger
FYI, at Boyd, at least 4 of the people Dave and I talked to thought ftoy was a socal thing, and if you werent there, you couldnt compete. azyota has some of the same sentiments.

That would make perfect sence because it was started in socal and will expand as more people purchase chassis. I don't think this is a limiting factor since Mike has sold 60+ chassis to date.
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Old 10-03-2006, 02:24 PM   #11 (permalink)
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akshfksaflishfl

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbrjon
I know this has already been beat to death but the disc issue is no big deal to you left coast guys as mud and lots of rain aren't a problem. We however get rain, mud, snow, etc that will kill drum brake shoes in 1 ride. If all I want to do is comps in my rig then it would be no big deal. I would like to be able to trail ride some and the discs would make that more fun. It's not a performance issue. Just a pita to deal will drum brakes out here.

If there ends up being an F-toy east series you guys can address that issue.

I don't see why rear disconnects aren't legal either? I was given the explanation that "toyota didn't make them so..." Well Toyota didn't make tcase doublers, comp compound tires, winches, beadlock wheels, propane,.... Rear discos aren't really that expensive either. I don't really care that much about the disconnect issue just adds more backups but even that isn't bad as it factors into the strategy of a course. Just using disconnects as an example.

I think you were mis-informed. At the time the original rules were developed there were no proven ways to disconnect the rear axle. Since then there are but the BOD decided not to allow it mainly to keep the cost down. If you go to a competition you will see that not having "front dig" adds to the competitiveness.

I'd like to see a more definitive set of rules. As was mentioned above I know the center of the Ftoy universe is in SOCAL but i'm a long way from there and what seems to make perfect sense to you guys may not be so obvious to me. I'd like to build my rig to work good at comps but also be a fun trail rig.

I think the rules are perfectly clear. If you have any questions after you have read them, post it here for clarification.

oagfqhglejf

My .02 worth.
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Old 10-03-2006, 04:32 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertoy
akshfksaflishfl
Thanks for your reply.I was at the Cougar Buttes event this weekend. Came all the way out from Tennessee. Although I really enjoyed it, the more time I spend here and the responses I see to posts the more I want to sell my FToy stuff, finish my v8 trail buggy, and ride for fun. Maybe there should be a Ftoys East with a seperate set of rules that address the stuff we need out here. That would make it a little tough for National points though. btw- I have read all the rules for Ftoys-many times and there seems to be some stuff like the bump stop issue that's not in there. I haven't been around here long enough to know the reasoning behind some of this stuff or the "unwritten rules" that comprise the "spirit" of the class.
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Old 10-03-2006, 08:08 PM   #13 (permalink)
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You guys are killing me.
mtbrjon, I hope you weren't offended by me putting akshfksaflishfl at the begining and end of my reply. It was the only way I could get the reply to go through. I just hit a bunch of randum keys.

There seems to be a picture in your minds of how this class should run and it is simply not going to run like that. There are PLENTY of rock crawling classes that you can go to that will satisfy your needs.

You seem to be stuck on 2 things.

1. Why isn't there a clear and concise set of rules outlining everything that I can and cannot do?

Answer: because there is no such thing. there is no possible way to write a set of rules that outline exactly what to do. There is always going to be people that take minipulating the rules as a challange and will do so just to see if they get caught. This class isn't going to go there. The more rules you make, the more oppertunities you generate for them to be manipulated. We want to have fun on comp day. Any we do. Noone is pissed off because they think someone else has one up on them. If you get beat. It is obvious why. Because the other guys out performed you. On the course, not in their garage with some crazy modifications.

2. If most people agree that a certain modification is not an advantage, why not allow it?

Answer: Because there is always going to be the guy that thinks he is at a disadvantage because he can't afford to spend the money. For example the Air bumps. First of all, a set of cheap air bumps will run you about $800. If they offer no advantage, why spend the money? If you go back and read the "Air Bump Thread" there wat at least one guy with ALOT of credibility that argued it would infact be an advantage. that is all it take to cause the perception, and the perception is as good as the fact. No one really knows if it will be an advantage or not, but if it ends up being allowed it will open the door for other things to be allowed. Why not just build a rig on the conservative side of the rules and bring it out and run it.

As far as air bumps being a safety issue. That is straight up B.S. I took as hard of a hit as you are going to take in a Formula Toy this weekend and felt no worse that I would after a weekend at the dunes. No where near how I feel after driving 200 miles desert racing. No where near how I feel after 3 heats at the demo derby.
If you have a bad back, you shouldn't be competing in the first place.

One last thought, the people in this thread haven't expenienced a formula Toy competition as a competitor. If you are considering joining this class. Don't let these people discourage you. I guarentee if you build one and come out, it will be the best competition experience you have been in. It is for me and that is why I am fighting here to keep it that way.
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Last edited by desertoy; 10-03-2006 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 10-04-2006, 09:18 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbrjon
I know this has already been beat to death but the disc issue is no big deal to you left coast guys as mud and lots of rain aren't a problem. We however get rain, mud, snow, etc that will kill drum brake shoes in 1 ride. If all I want to do is comps in my rig then it would be no big deal. I would like to be able to trail ride some and the discs would make that more fun. It's not a performance issue. Just a pita to deal will drum brakes out here.

I'd like to see a more definitive set of rules. As was mentioned above I know the center of the Ftoy universe is in SOCAL but i'm a long way from there and what seems to make perfect sense to you guys may not be so obvious to me. I'd like to build my rig to work good at comps but also be a fun trail rig.

My .02 worth.

What was mentioned is why we will run disks normally and drums for comp.

The disco, Im torn on, and can see legitamate reasons to run or not, obviously this is left to the BOD.

The airbumps I would have never asked about, because I would never have thought it would have mattered. I was very surprised someone else even brought them up, and more surprised that there was opposition to running them. But like Ive said, if they are not comp legal, we wont run them in comp.

One thing I wasnt sure on was water in the tires, but that is legal, so now thats clear. I was not sure on stickies, but those are legal as well. Now the diff choices are clear, so thats better. Notching for the seats I had considered, and talking to John, determined to be legal, now its in the rules, very clear. Thats all Im asking for. I would also love to see some reasoning. The percieved advantage reasoning john just presented I think makes sense, now I see some of your point of view. I dont think anyone will agree with all the rules, ever. But having some understanding as why some of them are what they are helps.
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Old 10-04-2006, 09:19 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbrjon
I know this has already been beat to death but the disc issue is no big deal to you left coast guys as mud and lots of rain aren't a problem. We however get rain, mud, snow, etc that will kill drum brake shoes in 1 ride. If all I want to do is comps in my rig then it would be no big deal. I would like to be able to trail ride some and the discs would make that more fun. It's not a performance issue. Just a pita to deal will drum brakes out here.

I don't see why rear disconnects aren't legal either? I was given the explanation that "toyota didn't make them so..." Well Toyota didn't make tcase doublers, comp compound tires, winches, beadlock wheels, propane,.... Rear discos aren't really that expensive either. I don't really care that much about the disconnect issue just adds more backups but even that isn't bad as it factors into the strategy of a course. Just using disconnects as an example.

I'd like to see a more definitive set of rules. As was mentioned above I know the center of the Ftoy universe is in SOCAL but i'm a long way from there and what seems to make perfect sense to you guys may not be so obvious to me. I'd like to build my rig to work good at comps but also be a fun trail rig.

My .02 worth.

Rear disconnects? would just make our cones and courses tighter, everyone would have to have them, and there would deffinatly be more biff and r&p carnage.

Air bumps? Okay, that gets us bigger drop offs that everyone is gonna have to take to be competitive.

Rear discs? I say if you truely need them in your area, and they arent giving you an advantage in the comp. Put them on, be prepared for the possibilty of a penalty at the comp.
No one will care untill you win a comp
(this is just my opinion, and I aint nobody )
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Old 12-04-2006, 05:34 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbrjon
I know this has already been beat to death but the disc issue is no big deal to you left coast guys as mud and lots of rain aren't a problem. We however get rain, mud, snow, etc that will kill drum brake shoes in 1 ride. If all I want to do is comps in my rig then it would be no big deal. I would like to be able to trail ride some and the discs would make that more fun. It's not a performance issue. Just a pita to deal will drum brakes out here.

Just reading F-toy stuff because I'm planning on building one for 08.

I do agree with the disc brake being a plus on the trails around the East side (but I'm in one of the fly over states East coast / West coast ~ what about the Midwest? ) anyway, We do go through allot of drum brake shoes out here, it's one good reason for disc conversions. My .02
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Old 12-05-2006, 06:37 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I am building number 58 for more trail type use, and i do not that the roads and soil here in the PNW is way different then in calif.

I would rather see disk brakes with the ebrake units legal speciaL OVER THE USE OF FILLED TIRES we use filled tires here on the ranches and farms for one reason to gain traction and lower the CG of the tractor so there use in a F TOY wouild increase a person odd on winning over a non filled rig

or maybe we need to devide the group into 2 class for a year and see how much differance the disk brakes make over drum type

her the drum type pack with mud very fast there by limiting the use once packed with mud or dirt forget trying to use the ebrak to help hold on a slope or hill
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Old 12-05-2006, 09:58 AM   #18 (permalink)
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i think(not that its worth anything seeing as i dont even have a formula toy), that to really make the rules clear you guys should lay it out as what is legal, and not what is illegal. many sanctioning bodies do it this way including the scca. just grazing over the rule book it seems like you tried to do this but it is still not well defined. there are alot of little gray areas, which could be good or not(as in this case).

all successful sanctioning bodys use very clear guidelines of what is allowed. if its not on the list you cant use it.

just looking over the list quikly i found a few loopholes already that would give huge advantages that according to your rules would be perfectly legal. however i will not get into it for the sake of competition.

:rant off:
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Old 12-06-2006, 10:51 PM   #19 (permalink)
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This is getting off a bit. Rule discussion should probably be in another thread. As of now, we've talked a lot, and have our plans 98% set in stone for intent, and everything is good and clear with BOD (or at least Ive cleared it with john and hobie)
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Old 12-12-2006, 07:34 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Brian I run alot of your products and look forward to seeing your rig done. I was going to try and compete in the east series next year by converting my 4 runner to a ftoy but discovered that alot parts I have are not class legal. I DO NOT understand the rr disc brakes being illegal but running full blown sticky comp tires IS LEGAL. Huh? The cost factor is kinda lame when you look at a set of 37 krawlers at 1500+ dollars and a diy rr disc setup for under 250. Either way make sure to get building and I (and most of us on the right coast) feel your pain.

Last edited by superpile; 12-12-2006 at 07:36 PM.
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Old 12-12-2006, 10:43 PM   #21 (permalink)
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brian, hurry the hell up
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Old 12-13-2006, 08:02 AM   #22 (permalink)
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brian, hurry the hell up
Yea, Lets see some pics allready!
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