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Old 05-17-2009, 09:33 PM   #1 (permalink)
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IFS KOH F-toy

back in the day I thought that an IFS f-toy would be a fun way to go race in the MDR series. with KOH I think a IFS f-toy would still be cool.

so what do you see as the pro and cons of the concept.

I admittedly know nothing about the ifs toy suspension
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Old 05-17-2009, 09:41 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I think it would be cool and even kicked the idea around when I had my F-Toy chassis. I also don't know much about IFS, but it seems to me that someone could buy something like this, make a few bucks back selling the fiberglass, and have a cool IFS F-Toy with hardly any time and not much money.

http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/t...econd&id=11871


I still hope the Benders will build one and give it away. I'll buy a raffle ticket or two.
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Old 05-18-2009, 09:37 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Pro:
The FToy platform is light enough that you could probably make Toy-based IFS live through a grueling race like KOH.
Cool idea--like a Total Chaos long-arm system on the front?

Con: limited tire size?
Buddy of mine raced in KOH on 37 red label Krawlers. He felt that the 37s were a little short given some of the bigger rocks on some of the trails--and the rigs on 40's (and a lot on 42's) were moving over the bigger rocks more easily.

Given the constraints of IFS, a 40" tire in a punishing race like KOH might be too much for Toy-based IFS.

Were there any rigs in the top 10 in KOH 09 who had smaller than 40's? Did anyone do the tire spreadsheet like last year?


EarlKann is right--check RDC for beta on building a strong IFS toy suspension. As much as we know about FToys here, we're all weak on knowledge of anything more than torching the IFS off! ...but even in the link he posted (sweet truck, BTW), it's only built around 33" tires.

A 3rz would kick ass in such a platform!!

Maybe a 1-ton Chevy IFS system--so you've got some big, beefy knuckles and spindles to handle 40s??

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Originally Posted by camo View Post
back in the day I thought that an IFS f-toy would be a fun way to go race in the MDR series. with KOH I think a IFS f-toy would still be cool.

so what do you see as the pro and cons of the concept.

I admittedly know nothing about the ifs toy suspension
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Old 05-18-2009, 02:33 PM   #4 (permalink)
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i have been wanting to try this for some time now, but what kind of class would that put you in for other offroad races? i know theres no classes in koh but i wouldnt build a rig just for that race
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Old 05-18-2009, 03:09 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Pro:
The FToy platform is light enough that you could probably make Toy-based IFS live through a grueling race like KOH.
Cool idea--like a Total Chaos long-arm system on the front?

Con: limited tire size?
Buddy of mine raced in KOH on 37 red label Krawlers. He felt that the 37s were a little short given some of the bigger rocks on some of the trails--and the rigs on 40's (and a lot on 42's) were moving over the bigger rocks more easily.

Given the constraints of IFS, a 40" tire in a punishing race like KOH might be too much for Toy-based IFS.

Were there any rigs in the top 10 in KOH 09 who had smaller than 40's? Did anyone do the tire spreadsheet like last year?


EarlKann is right--check RDC for beta on building a strong IFS toy suspension. As much as we know about FToys here, we're all weak on knowledge of anything more than torching the IFS off! ...but even in the link he posted (sweet truck, BTW), it's only built around 33" tires.

A 3rz would kick ass in such a platform!!

Maybe a 1-ton Chevy IFS system--so you've got some big, beefy knuckles and spindles to handle 40s??
I dont think 40 to 37 sticky would matter much in that race. For myself, I know another rig always looks like its going easier/smother than what your own feels like. As for 4cyl powered, IFS on 40's, forget it on anything close to ftoy budget. Drop to 37's, and youve got a chance. Racing those trails, rather than picking the harder line I think would be easier on axle shafts parts, provided you dont get stuck or wadded in a hole.
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Old 05-18-2009, 03:24 PM   #6 (permalink)
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what are the contraints of IFS in an F-toy class? Would you be stuck with Toytota based CV axles ? Torsion bars and a-arms ? Small 7.5" ring gear ?

Or could you build a one off front suspension ?

like:



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Old 05-18-2009, 05:18 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MT4Runner View Post
Pro:
The FToy platform is light enough that you could probably make Toy-based IFS live through a grueling race like KOH.
Cool idea--like a Total Chaos long-arm system on the front?

Con: limited tire size?
Buddy of mine raced in KOH on 37 red label Krawlers. He felt that the 37s were a little short given some of the bigger rocks on some of the trails--and the rigs on 40's (and a lot on 42's) were moving over the bigger rocks more easily.

Given the constraints of IFS, a 40" tire in a punishing race like KOH might be too much for Toy-based IFS.

Were there any rigs in the top 10 in KOH 09 who had smaller than 40's? Did anyone do the tire spreadsheet like last year?


EarlKann is right--check RDC for beta on building a strong IFS toy suspension. As much as we know about FToys here, we're all weak on knowledge of anything more than torching the IFS off! ...but even in the link he posted (sweet truck, BTW), it's only built around 33" tires.

A 3rz would kick ass in such a platform!!

Maybe a 1-ton Chevy IFS system--so you've got some big, beefy knuckles and spindles to handle 40s??
I took 10th on 37's the only place I wanted for bigger tires was the plaque line on sledge and even then I was able to make it without winching. I got stuck once but it was sheer stupidity on my part and would have been stuck on any size tire.

With some work this could be a fun rig but I think a v8 rig would be faster even with a solid axle. 300 hp was just bareluy enough for 37s in the desert where power is needed to get the front light.

f-toys do show well in this race so maybe it would be enough.

Wayne
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Old 05-18-2009, 08:03 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I've wheeled a 3rd generation Toy IFS since 2000...its currently set up with a crawler and front ARB. IMO the issue is the components are just too small for JV rocks. If you used a stronger diff (even an 8" center would be superior to the 7.5") and stonger CV's (maybe drive shaft CV's?) it might do ok with that light of a chassis.
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Old 05-18-2009, 09:15 PM   #9 (permalink)
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With an exotic front end, I say it would fair about as well as the other ftoys. Ftoys are finishing this race because of their dependability. They are not the fastest, lightest, smoothest; but they are always moving forward. If the factory IFS systems were not such a total piece of garbage (strengthwise) fewer people would be SAS'ing their rigs. I didn't do my first SAS until I had broken every bracket on my lift kit, broke a couple cv shafts, broke the center link and stripped 1/2 the teeth off the ring gear.
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Old 05-18-2009, 09:36 PM   #10 (permalink)
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86-94 frame with the Total Chaos Caddy long travel kit & Kong steering, cut-down 8" front w/ 930 cromo cvs for both the inner and outers, powered by a 3RZ on 37" Trxus MT stickies.

For an even better outer CV, maybe Bobby's new Rubi CV, it should be way stronger than a cromo 930 and has better angles for the double duty needed at the wheel.
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Old 05-19-2009, 09:40 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Back in the day Scott at Rockstomper manhandled a 9" third into the front of a mini truck. Used cro-mo T-100 length CV's. He broke allot but had fun, I think that kind of settup would work well under a f-toy.

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Old 05-19-2009, 09:51 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Back in the day Scott at Rockstomper manhandled a 9" third into the front of a mini truck. Used cro-mo T-100 length CV's. He broke allot but had fun, I think that kind of settup would work well under a f-toy.

Leni
He ran 930 CV's actually. Inner shafts were custom made. At the time he did this, I think t100's would have only been out ~ 3years.

Weighing 5500 lbs, a v8 and 36's did not treat anything well on that truck.
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Old 05-19-2009, 09:54 AM   #13 (permalink)
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86-94 frame with the Total Chaos Caddy long travel kit & Kong steering, cut-down 8" front w/ 930 cromo cvs for both the inner and outers, powered by a 3RZ on 37" Trxus MT stickies.

For an even better outer CV, maybe Bobby's new Rubi CV, it should be way stronger than a cromo 930 and has better angles for the double duty needed at the wheel.
Not a bad way to go. Myself Ill take a 22r over a 3rz everyday. But thats only my experience. Maybe we need to use the same design we used for the IFS 9", and build IFS 8" eh.
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Old 05-19-2009, 11:42 AM   #14 (permalink)
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yeah that all sounds great but custom built front like your talking about would be a lot of cash! the hole point behind a f-toy is to be cheap, so will the factory ifs with some upgrades and a 22r hold up to 37s?
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Old 05-19-2009, 11:55 AM   #15 (permalink)
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86-94 frame with the Total Chaos Caddy long travel kit & Kong steering, cut-down 8" front w/ 930 cromo cvs for both the inner and outers, powered by a 3RZ on 37" Trxus MT stickies.

For an even better outer CV, maybe Bobby's new Rubi CV, it should be way stronger than a cromo 930 and has better angles for the double duty needed at the wheel.
I think that would be the trick. Use an 8" center upfront and figure out a way to use longfields as the cv's, and I think you'd be pretty set.
Other than that add some PSC hydro assist, and Total Chaos goodies.
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Old 05-19-2009, 12:57 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Not a bad way to go. Myself Ill take a 22r over a 3rz everyday. But thats only my experience.
What are your thoughts on the 3RZ?

Quote:
Maybe we need to use the same design we used for the IFS 9", and build IFS 8" eh.
How narrow can you go???

I've got an OE 8" front housing that we've cut the tubes off of and are playing with a couple different ideas trying to get it really narrow. 'Course with the F-Toy idea, it would be more a mirror of the OE IFS housing so there is plenty of room.
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:17 PM   #17 (permalink)
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What are your thoughts on the 3RZ?



How narrow can you go???
3rz wants oil, 22r doesnt care. We put 3 3rz in Dave's buggy when I drove for him in one year.

How narrow. We got the housing for the 9" to 11.5" outside dimension. Id bet on an 8", probably in the 8.5-9.5" range.
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Old 05-19-2009, 06:38 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I was thinking about a 22re

long arm kit such as total chaos

35" tires

stock toy stuff or after market upgrades but no exotic swaps of thirds or other one off stuff.
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Old 05-19-2009, 07:53 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I was thinking about a 22re

long arm kit such as total chaos

35" tires

stock toy stuff or after market upgrades but no exotic swaps of thirds or other one off stuff.
For desert, sure, but why not go to 33's? Im hoping to get ours at a local 100 mile race, and have a set of 33" trxus to run on it for that. Figure a 22re with 5.29 and 33 should go pretty good!
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Old 05-20-2009, 07:34 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I would run a 33 tire in desert race such as V2R. for KOH I would run a 35.

for gears I was thinking of the 3.73 and run the box in stock low range.

and still have the rear case with 4.7 crawl gears.
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Old 05-20-2009, 07:42 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I think 35's are pushing it for the stock differential/ cv and steering. The carnage list I posted was with 35's and an open diff. No crawler gears though. With 37's and a locker I popped a front shaft in the diff, just trying to back up a slope. I started to let the clutch out, and it went. I don't think it's worth the risl for a race like koh, playing aroudn in the sand and desert it may be fun, but I don't think it would fast enough compared to a current ftoy in the desert, to offset the performance and durability in the rocks
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Old 05-20-2009, 07:51 AM   #22 (permalink)
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wilson.

the long arm kit uses a t100 cv and shaft.

not sure what the "center link" is but i assume that somebody makes a better then stock replacement part ?

the stripped ring gear.....hhmmm well they are small for sure. do you think that a gear new gear would last on race ?

a new gear each race is not unheard of in the world of racing and I would consider it acceptable race prep.
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Old 05-20-2009, 08:21 AM   #23 (permalink)
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T100 or Tundra front diff???
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:00 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I think if you were going with a stock front diff staying with 3.73's/3.91/4.10's, throw $50 - $100 and have the front gears cryo'd, and running the tcase in low range as camo said. Also run the 7.5" arb in the front diff.

Total chaos makes a replacement HD center link, I think most people could probably fab one up themselves otherwise.

I think CV's and the inner axles on the front diff would then be the main problem. I guess if there were no other options you could just see if Bobby would give the cv's and axles the "treatment" that he administered to stock birf's before the advent of 30 spline cromo birfs.
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:04 AM   #25 (permalink)
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T100 or Tundra front diff???
Do you mean converting a rear 8.4" housing to run as a front diff? Or do you mean a t100 or tundra ifs front diff?

If it's the latter the t100 and tundras use the same front diffs as the pickup's and taco's respectively.
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