1997 LC 3.4L V6 misfires & runs "jerky" - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:06 PM   #1 (permalink)
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1997 LC 3.4L V6 misfires & runs "jerky"

Hi all,

Karl here from Sweden Europe, so forgive my grammar if it comes out strange.

I have a LC 90 with the 3.4L V6 with 280000km on the clock. (167770 miles) so it has gone quite far.
It has suddenly started to run quite irregularly and really poor.

It started a while ago, as I noticed a jerky idle and felt a loss of 1 or more cylinders sometimes.
A clear misfire on one or more cylinders.
-When saying that, its not that I cant tell if there is one or more cylinders being affected. What I mean is that sometimes one cylinder misfires, and another time it could be perhaps 2 cylinders or more acting up on me...
Up until a few weeks ago, it would appear every now and then, all of a sudden and for no apperant reason.
Then it could run fine for a day or two, just to start act up again just as I thought I was safe...

I noticed that the engine ran a lot better if I did not screw the gas cap back on all that hard, so I figured there was an issue with vaacuum in the gas tank or a clogged gas cap breather, that did not let air into the gastank as the engine ran.
So I just screwed the cap back on ever so lightly, and the engine ran fine for a couple of months.

However, now the problem is back, and it is worse than ever.
An now it is constant, every time I take it for a spin.

Symptoms:
1. Jerky idle and loss of 1 or more cylinders.
2. Loss of power when trying to accelerate on low revs.
3. The engine can be provoked to run bad if I floor it when Im in too high gear. It will start to chug and jerk. Feels exactly like fuel starvation.

-I replaced the sparkplugs and fuel filter. I also ran 3 bottles of injector cleaning additives.
No difference.
-Im not experiencing any higher fuel consumption, I still get the same mpg (roughly)

---Im thinking coils or injectors..?

Since removing the injectors on these cars is a pain, is there any way to rule these factors out? Any way to check if they are ok or not whilst still mounted in the engine?
Any other ideas?

Most thankful for any input or thoughts,
Karl
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:44 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Have you run a scan on it? Sounds like an injector, pump or coil pack.
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:49 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Check your coils. My moms 4runner hade the same problem about 4 years ago and I found a faulty coil pack and that fixed the problem. Some mechanics and autoparts stores can test them.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:02 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Yeppers, went through 4 coils packs in my trd supercharged hundy
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:04 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyNailJustin View Post
Have you run a scan on it? Sounds like an injector, pump or coil pack.
Hey Rusty,

No, I have not yet done a scan, I guess such an old machine communicates in flashcodes?
Im leaning towards a faulty injector or coil myself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kenichols29 View Post
Check your coils. My moms 4runner hade the same problem about 4 years ago and I found a faulty coil pack and that fixed the problem. Some mechanics and autoparts stores can test them.
@Kenichols,
Thanks for your input!
Do you remember how you went about to rule out which one it was?
There is 3 coils on these engines if Im not mistaken, one coil for 2 cylinders?
Is there any way I can test them myself, or do I have to take it to a mechanic?
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:40 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainzoom View Post
Hey Rusty,

No, I have not yet done a scan, I guess such an old machine communicates in flashcodes?
Im leaning towards a faulty injector or coil myself.




@Kenichols,
Thanks for your input!
Do you remember how you went about to rule out which one it was?
There is 3 coils on these engines if Im not mistaken, one coil for 2 cylinders?
Is there any way I can test them myself, or do I have to take it to a mechanic?
It was a 98 model, and we just pulled the codes with a scanner. While I would test the one before replacing it once you get the info from the scanner. your 97 will be OBD II, so you can pull the codes if you have a check engine light on. Most autoparts stores do it for free. I know autozone will scan it for free for sure.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:02 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by kenichols29 View Post
It was a 98 model, and we just pulled the codes with a scanner. While I would test the one before replacing it once you get the info from the scanner. your 97 will be OBD II, so you can pull the codes if you have a check engine light on. Most autoparts stores do it for free. I know autozone will scan it for free for sure.
The "Check engine" light has never lit up unfortunately, so Im not sure if I will get a faulty code.
(The light does work, as it comes on when I turn the key.)
I talked to a Toyota mechanic a few weeks ago, and he said that:
"If the "Check engine" light has not come on, you wont get a code"

But when I think of it;
If there is a bad coil, the emissions will be richer, and the computer should read the emissions via sensors and flag that something is wrong.. or?

I dont know what it takes for the "Check engine" light to lite up, will it come on on a bad injector or coil? Does the computer register a defective coil and light up the "Check engine" light on that basis?
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:10 AM   #8 (permalink)
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1997 LC 3.4L V6 misfires & runs "jerky"

Since it started as a random miss I would inspect the insulators on the bottom of each coil and plug wire. Sounds like you have secondary voltage arcing through to the spark plug tube.
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:10 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mudjunky13 View Post
Since it started as a random miss I would inspect the insulators on the bottom of each coil and plug wire. Sounds like you have secondary voltage arcing through to the spark plug tube.
Good call!
Ill check them out.

Btw, I found these coils on ebay at $65,99
They are for the 3.4L 4-runner and Tacoma, but they should fit my engine aswell i guess?

New 1995 2004 Toyota 4Runner T100 Tundra Tacoma 3 4L V6 Ignition Coil 9091902212 | eBay

Might as well replace them all, at that price.

Last edited by captainzoom; 11-05-2012 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:35 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainzoom View Post
Good call!
Ill check them out.

Btw, I found these coils on ebay at $65,99
They are for the 3.4L 4-runner and Tacoma, but they should fit my engine aswell i guess?

New 1995 2004 Toyota 4Runner T100 Tundra Tacoma 3 4L V6 Ignition Coil 9091902212 | eBay

Might as well replace them all, at that price.
Ya those will work. You might also want to run a fuel pressure test. you could have a fuel pump going bad.
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Last edited by kenichols29; 11-05-2012 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:07 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Thanks again kenichols!
Ill have my man in the garage take a look at that too, I am bringing the car over to him by the end of this week..
As soon as theres some change I will get back with info.

And a big thanks to all those who came with ideas!
/Karl

Last edited by captainzoom; 11-05-2012 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:34 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Ok, a quick update:

I took the car for a spin just now, the misfire appeared immediately.
It ran on less than 6 cylinders for sure.
So, back home I opened the hood and pulled a random ignition lead with the engine still running.
The idle changed noticeable, ..like it would when you pull a lead...
So, back with that one, and pulled another. (Marked cyl. no 1)
-No change in idle at all!
The idle was just the same with or without that lead connected to the plug.

But when I held the lead close to a metal surface, I saw a clear spark!
Apparently the coil and lead is ok. But what about the plug?

So I removed the plug from the cylinder that did not fire, and swapped with the plug from the cylinder that did, to rule out the plug.
-Started the car back up again and did the same highly scientific experiment.
No change, still the same cylinder that does not fire.

When I compared the two sparkplugs, the sparkplug that came from the cylinder that did work had a nice white/yellow/light brown shade, just like it should be.
However, the plug that came from the cylinder that did not work , was ever so slightly more white. Now we are talking an extremely small difference, but still noticable.
This would indicate a lean combustion, or perhaps theres no gas at all entering that cylinder??

Could it be so that this cylinder is running without gasoline..?
Defective injector?

What are your thoughts?

/Karl
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:15 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Good detective work!

Before you do anything, replace the plugs with all new Denso or NGK dual tip correct OEM plugs. Go on Rock Auto and get Denso plug wires. Roadtest!

Do not replace the coil packs yet. Certainly do not replace them with anything aftermarket. Your wire arching is a clear misire issue. Do not read too far into the plugs just yet. Also, someone mentioned it...make sure all the spark plug tubes are clean and oil free.
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:39 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Good detective work!

Before you do anything, replace the plugs with all new Denso or NGK dual tip correct OEM plugs. Go on Rock Auto and get Denso plug wires. Roadtest!

Do not replace the coil packs yet. Certainly do not replace them with anything aftermarket. Your wire arching is a clear misire issue. Do not read too far into the plugs just yet. Also, someone mentioned it...make sure all the spark plug tubes are clean and oil free.
Hey Pietro, thanks for your input!
The plugs are all new NGK dual ends unfortunately. I already replaced them in order to rule out spark plug failure...
And I checked and know they all work.

I did a visual inspection on the ignition leads, and they look okay.
That does not mean that they can not be faulty of course.

This we know now :
#There is clearly a problem with No.1 cylinder.
# I held the No.1 ignition lead at metal whilst the engine was running, and saw a nice spark. I also put a sparkplug in the boot and saw a nice fat spark, so I know that the coil, lead and sparkplug works.

If the sparkplug fires, but there is no BOOM in No.1 cylinder...?
In my book this would mean that the next thing to check is that cylinder gets gasoline.

Does anyone know of a good way to check if that cylinder gets gas?

Thanks again!
/Karl

Last edited by captainzoom; 11-06-2012 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:33 AM   #15 (permalink)
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One, new plug wires before you go any futher. Also, swap the #1 coil with the #3 coil and see if the problem follows.

Two other things I can think of...heavy carbon deposits sticking the valves and a bad injector. I would seafoam the shit out of the engine and fuel to see what happens. I would also spend the money on intake gaskets to swap injectors around if none of these solve the problem.

If the injector is bad, try taking them out and soaking them in seafoam. Worked well on a few sludged up 3.0 injectors in the past.
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Old 11-07-2012, 01:04 PM   #16 (permalink)
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One, new plug wires before you go any futher. Also, swap the #1 coil with the #3 coil and see if the problem follows.

Two other things I can think of...heavy carbon deposits sticking the valves and a bad injector. I would seafoam the shit out of the engine and fuel to see what happens. I would also spend the money on intake gaskets to swap injectors around if none of these solve the problem.

If the injector is bad, try taking them out and soaking them in seafoam. Worked well on a few sludged up 3.0 injectors in the past.
Yeah, new leads are probably needed soon anyways. There is a set on ebay for $128 wich sounds fair.
I have been thinking of getting a ultrasonic cleaner for these kind of jobs, but in order to get the injectors 100% cleaned out, I would need to flush them with seafoam or such as well. Unfortunately there is no such thing as Seafoam on the market here in Sweden, so It will be easier and only a little bit more expensive to get a set of these "remanufactured" injectors.

1 Year Warranty 3 0L 3 4L Tacoma ES300 Camry Genuine Denso Fuel Injector Set | eBay

As $170 is really cheap compared to what a new set would be.
1 new injector is approx $400 here in Sweden. Yep, that is for 1 injector...

Ill get back when I know more.
Thanks alot, just keep those good ideas coming.
/Karl

A set of new leads and a set of those injectors will be a good start i guess.
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:54 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Yeah, new leads are probably needed soon anyways. There is a set on ebay for $128 wich sounds fair.
I have been thinking of getting a ultrasonic cleaner for these kind of jobs, but in order to get the injectors 100% cleaned out, I would need to flush them with seafoam or such as well. Unfortunately there is no such thing as Seafoam on the market here in Sweden, so It will be easier and only a little bit more expensive to get a set of these "remanufactured" injectors.

1 Year Warranty 3 0L 3 4L Tacoma ES300 Camry Genuine Denso Fuel Injector Set | eBay

As $170 is really cheap compared to what a new set would be.
1 new injector is approx $400 here in Sweden. Yep, that is for 1 injector...

Ill get back when I know more.
Thanks alot, just keep those good ideas coming.
/Karl

A set of new leads and a set of those injectors will be a good start i guess.
Hi,

got new Injectors from LC Enginering, real quick, real bargain compared to Toyota here. But got my problem back real fast, 2 weeks. We figured that the "american rubber" didnt stand the scandinavian gasolin. Then i bought just the rubber from Toyo here. Cheap, it was ok after that.

But the main problem occured actually on another place. I used injector cleaner,from "Biltema". And that stuff "grind" the shit out of the fuel lines, and the fuel rail. All that metall slush ends up inside the injectors.
I checked on two other 22Re fuelrails- both more than 300000 km in use- basicly closed.
We run on accid not on gasolin thes days

My gues guessing your coil,plugs and leads are fine:
-check fuelpump
-check fuelrail
-check injectors

Matt
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:45 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Hi,

got new Injectors from LC Enginering, real quick, real bargain compared to Toyota here. But got my problem back real fast, 2 weeks. We figured that the "american rubber" didnt stand the scandinavian gasolin. Then i bought just the rubber from Toyo here. Cheap, it was ok after that.

But the main problem occured actually on another place. I used injector cleaner,from "Biltema". And that stuff "grind" the shit out of the fuel lines, and the fuel rail. All that metall slush ends up inside the injectors.
I checked on two other 22Re fuelrails- both more than 300000 km in use- basicly closed.
We run on accid not on gasolin thes days

My gues guessing your coil,plugs and leads are fine:
-check fuelpump
-check fuelrail
-check injectors

Matt

Hey Matt!

You are probably on to something here.
I have used a few injectorcleaning products too, STP and some other brand.
But have not noticed any difference.

Ill give a background to how it all started.

Me and my girlfriend had been up in the mountains for a weeks holiday, circa 8 hours drive. The car had been running perfectly all the way up, but on the way back home it started to act funny.

I was cruising highway speed, 100kmh / 60mph or so, and not pressing the engine at all. At that speed I noticed that the car jerked ever so slightly.
Not enough for my girlfriend to notice who was sitting by my side, but I felt it as the driver.

So we turned off the highway and stopped at a gasstation.
When turning into the gasstation area, the car was missing pretty badly, and I pulled to a halt, did not turn the engine off but kept it at idle, and it was running really rough now! It felt like I had 3 or 4 cylinders running.
The feeling was pretty close to when you are running out of gas.

I turned the engine off and we sat for a few minutes. When I started the engine back up, it ran perfect again.
So back up on the highway heading home. 10 minutes later it started again.

After this episode, this problem has been coming and going for a few months and during that time I have used about 3 bottles of injector cleaners to no use.
At that time, the problem mostly occurred when the engine had been running for 20-30 minutes or more or I had been using it consistantly for a few days.

So I replaced:
# Sparkplugs
# Gas filter
# Checked airfilter, looked as new.

I took the car to my friend who is a mechanic, but of course it ran fine when he had it.
On the way back from his garage, it started almost immediately! Even with the engine cold.
I was really low on petrol, so I stopped at a station to fill up some gas, and I noticed that there was a really heavy vaacuum/suction in the gastank when I was to remove the gas cap. It came off with a "Schhwwo..oppp."

Aha! Perhaps theres a problem with air not getting into the gas tank?
So I filled the tank up, and left the gas cap on really loose, to let air in.
-Problem solved! Or at least for a few weeks.
The car ran fine for at least a month or more, and the feeling was really that the problem had gone. No hesitation at all.

-But then it came back a few weeks ago, and now the problem is consistant and always present. Cold or hot engine, it runs bad all the time.

Worth noticing:
When it first occurred, the engine could run; bad or worse.
It could at first run fine on all 6 cylinders. Then run a bit rough on 5 cylinders, at other times probably only on 4 or even less.

Now it seems consistant.
And as I wrote before, if I let the engine idle and pull No.1 ignition lead off the plug, the engine will still sound the same.



But Matt,

1. How did you check or remedy the pump? Did you clean it out or just replaced it?
2. The rail, clean or replace?
3. Injectors, clean or replace?

Thanks for your input,
/Karl

Last edited by captainzoom; 11-08-2012 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 11-08-2012, 02:26 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Hey Matt!

You are probably on to something here.
I have used a few injectorcleaning products too, STP and some other brand.
But have not noticed any difference.

Ill give a background to how it all started.

Me and my girlfriend had been up in the mountains for a weeks holiday, circa 8 hours drive. The car had been running perfectly all the way up, but on the way back home it started to act funny.

I was cruising highway speed, 100kmh / 60mph or so, and not pressing the engine at all. At that speed I noticed that the car jerked ever so slightly.
Not enough for my girlfriend to notice who was sitting by my side, but I felt it as the driver.

So we turned off the highway and stopped at a gasstation.
When turning into the gasstation area, the car was missing pretty badly, and I pulled to a halt, did not turn the engine off but kept it at idle, and it was running really rough now! It felt like I had 3 or 4 cylinders running.
The feeling was pretty close to when you are running out of gas.

I turned the engine off and we sat for a few minutes. When I started the engine back up, it ran perfect again.
So back up on the highway heading home. 10 minutes later it started again.

After this episode, this problem has been coming and going for a few months and during that time I have used about 3 bottles of injector cleaners to no use.
At that time, the problem mostly occurred when the engine had been running for 20-30 minutes or more or I had been using it consistantly for a few days.

So I replaced:
# Sparkplugs
# Gas filter
# Checked airfilter, looked as new.

I took the car to my friend who is a mechanic, but of course it ran fine when he had it.
On the way back from his garage, it started almost immediately! Even with the engine cold.
I was really low on petrol, so I stopped at a station to fill up some gas, and I noticed that there was a really heavy vaacuum/suction in the gastank when I was to remove the gas cap. It came off with a "Schhwwo..oppp."

Aha! Perhaps theres a problem with air not getting into the gas tank?
So I filled the tank up, and left the gas cap on really loose, to let air in.
-Problem solved! Or at least for a few weeks.
The car ran fine for at least a month or more, and the feeling was really that the problem had gone. No hesitation at all.

-But then it came back a few weeks ago, and now the problem is consistant and always present. Cold or hot engine, it runs bad all the time.

Worth noticing:
When it first occurred, the engine could run; bad or worse.
It could at first run fine on all 6 cylinders. Then run a bit rough on 5 cylinders, at other times probably only on 4 or even less.

Now it seems consistant.
And as I wrote before, if I let the engine idle and pull No.1 ignition lead off the plug, the engine will still sound the same.



But Matt,

1. How did you check or remedy the pump? Did you clean it out or just replaced it?
2. The rail, clean or replace?
3. Injectors, clean or replace?

Thanks for your input,
/Karl

@ Karl
ring meg i morn mellom hav toll og toll,lunch
norge niniatteattenulltwosekstwo
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Old 11-08-2012, 02:34 PM   #20 (permalink)
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@ Karl
ring meg i morn mellom hav toll og toll,lunch
norge niniatteattenulltwosekstwo
Tack Matt, det gr jag!
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