What axles are these? - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum

Gravel Maker · 08-25-2005, 08:54 AM

I bought a pair of spare axles to convert to disc and do an axle flip so I could still drive the 40 while I was doing the prep. Anyway, I started taking it apart last night (first time Birf dissassembly) and am at a loss as to whats inside. I was expecting the typical bell shaped Birf I have seen everywhere and 27 or 30 splines to the 3rd. What I found is an axle that looks quite a bit like a ujoint axle, only no ujoint but a copper ball slotted for the race. The axles are 10 splines at the 3rd member. Overall this looks like a predecessor to an open knuckle axle but setup like a Birfield, can anyone help me or do I have to contact Bobby Long? Is this a workable setup? It is definately a Toyota setup but unlike one anyone I know has ever seen. Can it be updated? Any help is useful. Thanks

coolcruiserfj40 · 08-25-2005, 08:56 AM

ball and claw? if you were a lil faster you could have traded them for cromo longfeilds

LukeZero · 08-25-2005, 09:02 AM

Yep, ball and claw and to answer one of your questions, no they are not very workable. the 10 spline at the differential is pretty weak, the 6 spline at the lock out is very weak and the design of the ball and claw joint is pretty low on the strength scale. Switching to birfields in 1969 was a huge leap forward in strength... if you'd switch to minitruck birfs, or better yet, aftermarket Chro-mo birfs (read Longfields) you'd be much better off. I guess it depends on how much strength you think you need. My assumption is that anyone that posts here- needs more strength than the old ball and claw design allows. Later, Luke

Gravel Maker · 08-25-2005, 09:10 AM

Is the housing still useable and can I change the 10 spline on the 3rd member easily to 30 spline?

LukeZero · 08-25-2005, 09:21 AM

You have the small bolt pattern on the steering knuckles, and they'll require grinding to get the birfs in, but the axle housing itself could be used with 30 spline differentials and axle shafts.

Gravel Maker · 08-25-2005, 09:29 AM

Can the dif be modified to accept 30 splines without changing the whole unit? I thinking of a $20 modification or a $500 new third member?

woody · 08-25-2005, 09:29 AM

the housing itself can work, but the inner seal is "different" and frankly, you'll be happier long term to just use a 1968-newer housing....saves a few PITA steps....

Gravel Maker · 08-25-2005, 09:31 AM

By the way, I only paid $25 each for these so no big loss one way or the other, it was just to save time. Is there anything on the outdise to show it is a ball and claw?

Gravel Maker · 08-25-2005, 09:32 AM

outside

Gravel Maker · 08-25-2005, 12:35 PM

Already having the axle housing and 3rd member would save me a few bucks and if I can modify it I would rather. If not, does a toy truck 3rd fit the old housing? And are the birf's and axles interchangeable between a LC and a P/U? Otherwise I will have to modify the one I am driving and to do everything I am doing it will be in the driveway for a couple of weeks instead of getting dirty. I was planning of using the long weekend to change steering, flip axles, reverse front springs, put in 55 rear springs, replace the 3spd with a 4spd, and add 4 wheel disc's. Kind of a busy weekend, anyone want to help? But with theis axle I can do the housing twist now, ahead of time. Any ideas?

woody · 08-25-2005, 12:55 PM

toy truck 3rd is 100% not compatible with yer Land Cruiser axles...the birfs can be made to work (knuckle grinding) and the inner axles, while splined correctly, are the wrong length and useless.

you still have to address the seal surface for the inner axle....

you CAN change the side gears inside the diff from coarse to fine spline...that's easy....

IMO, you will STILL be ahead if you locate an empty housing...hell, I've got 4-5 in the garage with no purpose in life, but shipping can be a bitch...

Gravel Maker · 08-25-2005, 01:06 PM

Then I will do the side gear change, for now. I don't mind a bit of grinding. I can let my 13 year old do it, he decided it's his when he turns 16 anyway so I might as well get him to work for it. Unless I can find a newer housing closer. I will post up for one. I am in Sacramento. And thanks

coolcruiserfj40 · 08-25-2005, 01:31 PM

ive got one in la if you want it

guitarrc6 · 08-25-2005, 01:45 PM

gravel maker you plan on doing all that in one weekend in the SAC heat?!! you are crazy!! good luck to you. if you were doing it last weekend i coulda helped, i was at my grandparents in roseville.

Gravel Maker · 08-26-2005, 05:46 AM

After all, it is a 3 day weekend!

Pygpen · 08-26-2005, 08:06 AM

I have a few rear housings to choose from (they all have the bigger studs for the 3rd member), but only only one front.... And unfortunately I will be using it to cut-n-turn for the 55 soon. I'm sure I have a set of side gears too. PM me if your interested in the rear housing or the side gears.
BTW, I'm rio vista.
PMK

bustanutley · 08-26-2005, 08:15 AM

Where are you at Gravel? I have a 1970 housing laying around. Axle is in wheatridge colorado if you are anywhere near by. Either way you should have no problem finding a new housing.

coolcruiserfj40 · 08-26-2005, 08:19 AM

he pmd me and looks like hes grabbing mine

Gravel Maker · 08-26-2005, 10:07 AM

I didn't really need a second axle, I have a newer one in the truck right now, I just wanted to do the cut and twist to have the axle ready before next weekend when I planned to do everything at once. If I can't get one close to me I will have to let it set for a week while I twist the axle. Anyone got one collecting dust close by? All I need is the housing.

Gravel Maker · 08-26-2005, 10:09 AM

I could give a deposit to be returned with the replacement housing if you have one but want to keep it just in case?

Pygpen · 08-26-2005, 12:38 PM

You can have the one I got, and replace it with your good one when you do the swap. I'm not going to get to mine very soon. PM me and I'll give you my number....
Deposit not necessary....

my64fj40 · 08-26-2005, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeZero

Yep, ball and claw and to answer one of your questions, My assumption is that anyone that posts here- needs more strength than the old ball and claw design allows. Later, Luke

Man, that hurts. I think i'll go crawl into a hole.

65SWB45 · 08-26-2005, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by my64fj40

Man, that hurts. I think i'll go crawl into a hole.

I feel your pain!

08-25-2005, 08:54 AM	#1 (permalink)
Gravel Maker Pirate4x4 Addict! Join Date: Aug 2005 Member # 51387 Location: Loomis, CA Posts: 11,685 Blog Entries: 2	What axles are these? I bought a pair of spare axles to convert to disc and do an axle flip so I could still drive the 40 while I was doing the prep. Anyway, I started taking it apart last night (first time Birf dissassembly) and am at a loss as to whats inside. I was expecting the typical bell shaped Birf I have seen everywhere and 27 or 30 splines to the 3rd. What I found is an axle that looks quite a bit like a ujoint axle, only no ujoint but a copper ball slotted for the race. The axles are 10 splines at the 3rd member. Overall this looks like a predecessor to an open knuckle axle but setup like a Birfield, can anyone help me or do I have to contact Bobby Long? Is this a workable setup? It is definately a Toyota setup but unlike one anyone I know has ever seen. Can it be updated? Any help is useful. Thanks

08-25-2005, 09:02 AM	#3 (permalink)
LukeZero Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Member # 12028 Location: Elkhart, Indiana Posts: 877	Yep, ball and claw and to answer one of your questions, no they are not very workable. the 10 spline at the differential is pretty weak, the 6 spline at the lock out is very weak and the design of the ball and claw joint is pretty low on the strength scale. Switching to birfields in 1969 was a huge leap forward in strength... if you'd switch to minitruck birfs, or better yet, aftermarket Chro-mo birfs (read Longfields) you'd be much better off. I guess it depends on how much strength you think you need. My assumption is that anyone that posts here- needs more strength than the old ball and claw design allows. Later, Luke __________________ Cruiserless :(

08-25-2005, 09:10 AM	#4 (permalink)
Gravel Maker Pirate4x4 Addict! Join Date: Aug 2005 Member # 51387 Location: Loomis, CA Posts: 11,685 Blog Entries: 2	New question Is the housing still useable and can I change the 10 spline on the 3rd member easily to 30 spline?

08-25-2005, 09:21 AM	#5 (permalink)
LukeZero Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Member # 12028 Location: Elkhart, Indiana Posts: 877	You have the small bolt pattern on the steering knuckles, and they'll require grinding to get the birfs in, but the axle housing itself could be used with 30 spline differentials and axle shafts. __________________ Cruiserless :(

08-25-2005, 09:29 AM	#6 (permalink)
Gravel Maker Pirate4x4 Addict! Join Date: Aug 2005 Member # 51387 Location: Loomis, CA Posts: 11,685 Blog Entries: 2	Mod the Dif? Can the dif be modified to accept 30 splines without changing the whole unit? I thinking of a $20 modification or a $500 new third member?

08-25-2005, 08:56 AM	#2 (permalink)
coolcruiserfj40 Zeus of the Sluice Join Date: Dec 2004 Member # 40057 Posts: 2,890	ball and claw? if you were a lil faster you could have traded them for cromo longfeilds

08-25-2005, 09:29 AM	#7 (permalink)
woody Registered User Join Date: Feb 2000 Member # 260 Posts: 4,441	the housing itself can work, but the inner seal is "different" and frankly, you'll be happier long term to just use a 1968-newer housing....saves a few PITA steps....

08-25-2005, 09:31 AM	#8 (permalink)
Gravel Maker Pirate4x4 Addict! Join Date: Aug 2005 Member # 51387 Location: Loomis, CA Posts: 11,685 Blog Entries: 2	Re: By the way, I only paid $25 each for these so no big loss one way or the other, it was just to save time. Is there anything on the outdise to show it is a ball and claw?

08-25-2005, 09:32 AM	#9 (permalink)
Gravel Maker Pirate4x4 Addict! Join Date: Aug 2005 Member # 51387 Location: Loomis, CA Posts: 11,685 Blog Entries: 2	outside outside

08-25-2005, 12:35 PM	#10 (permalink)
Gravel Maker Pirate4x4 Addict! Join Date: Aug 2005 Member # 51387 Location: Loomis, CA Posts: 11,685 Blog Entries: 2	Can I change the 3rd member to use 30 or 27 spline axles? Already having the axle housing and 3rd member would save me a few bucks and if I can modify it I would rather. If not, does a toy truck 3rd fit the old housing? And are the birf's and axles interchangeable between a LC and a P/U? Otherwise I will have to modify the one I am driving and to do everything I am doing it will be in the driveway for a couple of weeks instead of getting dirty. I was planning of using the long weekend to change steering, flip axles, reverse front springs, put in 55 rear springs, replace the 3spd with a 4spd, and add 4 wheel disc's. Kind of a busy weekend, anyone want to help? But with theis axle I can do the housing twist now, ahead of time. Any ideas?

08-25-2005, 12:55 PM	#11 (permalink)
woody Registered User Join Date: Feb 2000 Member # 260 Posts: 4,441	toy truck 3rd is 100% not compatible with yer Land Cruiser axles...the birfs can be made to work (knuckle grinding) and the inner axles, while splined correctly, are the wrong length and useless. you still have to address the seal surface for the inner axle.... you CAN change the side gears inside the diff from coarse to fine spline...that's easy.... IMO, you will STILL be ahead if you locate an empty housing...hell, I've got 4-5 in the garage with no purpose in life, but shipping can be a bitch...

08-25-2005, 01:06 PM	#12 (permalink)
Gravel Maker Pirate4x4 Addict! Join Date: Aug 2005 Member # 51387 Location: Loomis, CA Posts: 11,685 Blog Entries: 2	Side gear change Then I will do the side gear change, for now. I don't mind a bit of grinding. I can let my 13 year old do it, he decided it's his when he turns 16 anyway so I might as well get him to work for it. Unless I can find a newer housing closer. I will post up for one. I am in Sacramento. And thanks

08-25-2005, 01:31 PM	#13 (permalink)
coolcruiserfj40 Zeus of the Sluice Join Date: Dec 2004 Member # 40057 Posts: 2,890	ive got one in la if you want it

08-25-2005, 01:45 PM	#14 (permalink)
guitarrc6 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Member # 49741 Posts: 6	gravel maker you plan on doing all that in one weekend in the SAC heat?!! you are crazy!! good luck to you. if you were doing it last weekend i coulda helped, i was at my grandparents in roseville.

08-26-2005, 05:46 AM	#15 (permalink)
Gravel Maker Pirate4x4 Addict! Join Date: Aug 2005 Member # 51387 Location: Loomis, CA Posts: 11,685 Blog Entries: 2	one long weekend After all, it is a 3 day weekend!

08-26-2005, 08:06 AM	#16 (permalink)
Pygpen Granite Guru Join Date: Nov 2001 Member # 8384 Location: Benicia, Ca. Posts: 791	I have a few rear housings to choose from (they all have the bigger studs for the 3rd member), but only only one front.... And unfortunately I will be using it to cut-n-turn for the 55 soon. I'm sure I have a set of side gears too. PM me if your interested in the rear housing or the side gears. BTW, I'm rio vista. PMK __________________ When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn Pro Benicia, Ca. My Cruisers PMK

08-26-2005, 08:15 AM	#17 (permalink)
bustanutley Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Member # 23362 Location: denvah Posts: 458	Where are you at Gravel? I have a 1970 housing laying around. Axle is in wheatridge colorado if you are anywhere near by. Either way you should have no problem finding a new housing. __________________ FJ40

08-26-2005, 08:19 AM	#18 (permalink)
coolcruiserfj40 Zeus of the Sluice Join Date: Dec 2004 Member # 40057 Posts: 2,890	he pmd me and looks like hes grabbing mine

08-26-2005, 10:07 AM	#19 (permalink)
Gravel Maker Pirate4x4 Addict! Join Date: Aug 2005 Member # 51387 Location: Loomis, CA Posts: 11,685 Blog Entries: 2	Sorry, I am in Sac I didn't really need a second axle, I have a newer one in the truck right now, I just wanted to do the cut and twist to have the axle ready before next weekend when I planned to do everything at once. If I can't get one close to me I will have to let it set for a week while I twist the axle. Anyone got one collecting dust close by? All I need is the housing.

08-26-2005, 10:09 AM	#20 (permalink)
Gravel Maker Pirate4x4 Addict! Join Date: Aug 2005 Member # 51387 Location: Loomis, CA Posts: 11,685 Blog Entries: 2	Maybe a spare housing I can replace? I could give a deposit to be returned with the replacement housing if you have one but want to keep it just in case?

08-26-2005, 12:38 PM	#21 (permalink)
Pygpen Granite Guru Join Date: Nov 2001 Member # 8384 Location: Benicia, Ca. Posts: 791	You can have the one I got, and replace it with your good one when you do the swap. I'm not going to get to mine very soon. PM me and I'll give you my number.... Deposit not necessary.... __________________ When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn Pro Benicia, Ca. My Cruisers PMK

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode