let's do some diesel tech: 1HZ vs 12HT vs H vs 2H vs...... what's best?! - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
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Old 11-10-2006, 07:56 AM   #1 (permalink)
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let's do some diesel tech: 1HZ vs 12HT vs H vs 2H vs...... what's best?!

this subject just came up in another thread so i figured instead of hijacking that thread, maybe it'd be a good idea to start a new one.

what have you guys done as far as diesel swaps/upgrades/conversions go. what are the pros and cons?

i'm very interested to learn more about this topic because i want to do a diesel swap in my troopie. i was considering the 4BT or 4BTA but after driving rob's 45lwb with the 1HZ i'm starting to reconsider.......
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Old 11-10-2006, 08:04 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Hi Georg-

2H is a great motor, IMO, but it lacks power.

12H-T is a killer motor. I drove a 60 series with a 12H-T while in Morocco and was very impressed by the power.

1HD-T is still a bit spendy, but has the most power of the stock toyota motors. (except 1HD-FT, but the wiring could be a pita and really $$)

1HZ is a low cost alternative with the option to install a Turbo.

I've looked at a few power maps of the 1HZ with a Turbo vs. a 1HD-T and the 1HZ-T produces more power. Add an intercooler and you'll be off to the races.

After re-reading your post, I didn't answer your question....

I've driven and convereted a 2H to a 2H-T and 3B to a 3B-T. A turbo makes a huge difference.

My next drive train swap after the 5.3L Vortec in a Troopy will be a 1HZ-T into a troopy. On the list of things to do....

Oh and 1HZ-T will definetly give you more power than a 12H-T.
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Old 11-10-2006, 08:48 AM   #3 (permalink)
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hey seth.
thanks for the reply and input. i guess another important part of the decision will be based on price and availability for the engine and service components/replacement parts.

any ideas?

also, is the a chart that'll tell us the power output of the different diesels? i know it'll be hard to come up with figures for the plain diesels converted to turbos but the stock tuyrbo engines should have man specs available, right?!
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Old 11-10-2006, 10:14 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangefj45

also, is the a chart that'll tell us the power output of the different diesels? i know it'll be hard to come up with figures for the plain diesels converted to turbos but the stock tuyrbo engines should have man specs available, right?!
Hi Georg-

A number of companies in OZ make aftermarket turbo kits for the 1HZ. They also have HP and Torque graphing with the kits installed.

The 2H and 12H-T share a number of the same parts. These motors (2H only IIRC) were brought into the USA in Hino Trucks and forklifts. Gettting parts for them is a breeze. Parts for the 1HZ are a bit tougher, but with Marv, the folks in Canada, Mike from West Coast Cruisers, and myself you should be able to find what you need.

Pricing for the 1HZ has dropped far enough to justify it over the 2H. 1HD-T is till a bit out of reach for me...
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:04 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I will only talk about the yota engines since I know nothing about your domestic or exotic options.
H/2H will be relatively low-cost and will get you going fine. You will not have insane power though. Most people will freak out if you season them with a turbocharger because of the lack of piston cooling. They will be a bit more fuel efficient than the 2F but a lot slower.
A turbo-intercooled 3B in good shape will make substancial power (2F-ish) without too much work, but compared to the 2F the conversion cost somewhat offsets the financial gain, unless you put a lot of miles on the truck ? I dunno that's actually an option I4d be considering if I keep the BJ45 for utility and towing duties, who knows.
If you're looking for decent power according to nowadays standards as well as a coolness factor you'll be looking at newer, more expensive options.
The 13BT is a superb engine, but its only real advantage over a 3B+T will be a better thermal efficiency.

If you want to get real serious you will need to chose between 12HT 1HZ 1HD-T 1HD-FT. The latter 2 IMO are too refined and powerful for a 45, but would be super cool for drag racing.
The 1HZ vs. 12HT debate has been going on for quite some time among diesel cruiserheads. The 1HZ comes with an overhead cam and indirect injection and is a lot quieter. I'm a 12HT fan myself, being old school and tractorish is a perfect fit in a 45 series IMO. The 1HZ has more power and rev potential, but the 12H-T has more character and a better fuel effciency. The catch for me with the 12HT is the deep roar you get right when you touch the accelerator. That alone is priceless
Of course if you score any one of the 12HT 1HZ 1HDT engines within your budget you will not regret it.
What will be the dedicated use for the troopie ?
If you come to the Netherlands you will need to get ahold of Mark "troopie", who converted his BJ45 to 12HT with 60series cable locker axles. I have not seen it in person but I sure would it

Oh and do a SEARCH
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:09 AM   #6 (permalink)
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3B-T or 13BT is a great motor and was offered in the 60 series, but I wouldn't consider it for the Troopy application.

12H-T is getting tougher to find in Japan. I was looking for one, but my supplier said he only finds them every 2-3 months and they sell rather quickly...

Georg for your application I would either consider a 1HZ-T or a 2H-T...
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:10 AM   #7 (permalink)
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B 80hp
3B 90hp
13BT 124hp
H 90hp
2H 105hp
12HT 136hp
1HZ 130hp
1HD-(F)T 160/170hp
200hp with an interccoler in within reach for both a 12HT and a 1HZ+T. The 1HZ will rev higher but the 12HT has more fueling potential thanks to the direct injection.
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:14 AM   #8 (permalink)
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OK let's get wild :
find a 2H donor engine, mod it for piston cooling, buy a set of 12H-T pistons and a 12HT head, and build everything around it custom. Cheap and effective, super cool but you need a lot of time on your hands. :doh:
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:15 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stupid frnch jackasS
B 80hp
3B 90hp
13BT 124hp
H 90hp
2H 105hp
12HT 136hp
1HZ 130hp
1HD-(F)T 160/170hp
200hp with an interccoler in within reach for both a 12HT and a 1HZ+T. The 1HZ will rev higher but the 12HT has more fueling potential thanks to the direct injection.
As he noted 200HP is within reach for a 1HZ-T and 1HD-T... None of these numbers are super exciting. To a certain degree I think installing a Toyota Diesel is sex appeal, IMO.

What are the specs on a cummins 4B?
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:18 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
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OK let's get wild :
find a 2H donor engine, mod it for piston cooling, buy a set of 12H-T pistons and a 12HT head, and build everything around it custom. Cheap and effective, super cool but you need a lot of time on your hands. :doh:
Are the pumps the same between the 2H and 12H-T?

I know the injectors are not... I can't imagine what a good 12H-T head sells for. Does toyota sell them new like the 3B head?

Interesting idea. It would take a lot of time, but seems feasible.
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:35 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Are the pumps the same between the 2H and 12H-T?

I know the injectors are not... I can't imagine what a good 12H-T head sells for. Does toyota sell them new like the 3B head?

Interesting idea. It would take a lot of time, but seems feasible.
The 12HT pump has a mech. governor where the 2H was pneumatic, but both can be made to work with a turbo. Anyway I'm pretty sure all the parts are interchangeable with their bosch counterparts which were plentiful on merc. diesels and many small-medium-size commercial trucks.
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Old 11-10-2006, 01:45 PM   #12 (permalink)
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thanks for all the input guys. i think it's gonna be between the 12h-t and the 1hz-t.
the whole concept behind the troopie build will be somewhat of an "excursion/camping rig". i want to be able to drive the troopie at reasonable speeds (70mph) with a roof top tent and possibly towing a small military trailer. right now it's got a tired H engine and barely makes it on the freeway at 50mph. so that's gotta go!

i know that the 4BT and 4BTa will put out between 105 and 135hp depending on the turbo and intercooler but torque is really what we're after, isn't it?!

anyways, where would i begin to look for a 12ht? i'm thinking that the best way to approach this would be to find either a complete donor vehicle or just the engine/trans and t-case combo since i would rather keep it all toyota and run the h55f and split case behind it.
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Old 11-10-2006, 02:01 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Georg, you made IMO the best choice for many reasons.

Reasons
1 install is a piece of cake, order the factory motor mounts or make them and bolt the tranny into the cross member which positions the engine.
2 No messing with brake and fuel lines.
3 exhaust is on correct side easy to route.
4 electrics all running to proper side

You will have to deal with drive shaft lengths.


Getting direct injection technology, but still have the venerable inline pump which can take a fair bit more dirty fuel than a rotory will afford.

No timing belt to change, full gear driven front.

If you purchase a Jap 12ht, you will need to source out a 12 volt starter and alternator.

Rob
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Old 11-10-2006, 04:49 PM   #14 (permalink)
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so how and where do i find either of these engines or complete donor vehicles except fropm sor?!
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Old 11-10-2006, 05:38 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I have heard that the cummins 4bta engines can pretty easily put out 200hp and 400ft/lbs of torque, by adjusting the injectors and timing. The 4bta was my original choice for a motor in my FJ55, but I couldn't find a decent one in the area.

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Old 11-10-2006, 09:20 PM   #16 (permalink)
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On it KID, will PM ya with any details worth while.

Maybe I can hook ya up.

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Old 11-11-2006, 01:19 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Georg,

I'm the Mark Denis mentioned.
I installed a 12ht for many of the reasons Denis mentionend. It's more powerfull than a 1HZ, and i'm not to crazy about turbocharging one for overheating reasons. I've actually seen more cracked 1HZ heads than 3B's. All of them were of turbocharged ones.
I will not go into details of power and torque numbers. All you have to do is give me your e-mail and i send you a small video, which will show you the off idle roar and torque. I'm sure that will make your decision easier.

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Old 11-11-2006, 05:26 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Hey Mark send me the video too I really want to see it. denisdecoster.at.yahoo.dot.fr I can host it as well if needs be. Oh and give me your address I will come and steal your troopie while I'm at it. Don't be surprised if you find a red rustbucket in its place tomorrow morning
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Old 11-11-2006, 06:06 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Denis,

You've got mail
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Old 11-11-2006, 06:21 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I can't see it maybe yahoo messed up once again ? I changed my antispam settings, would you be kind enough to try again ?
thanks
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Old 11-11-2006, 06:26 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Got it now?
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Old 11-11-2006, 06:47 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radd Cruisers

If you purchase a Jap 12ht, you will need to source out a 12 volt starter and alternator.
For the starter he could use a dual battery 24/12 system like HDJ80s have, best of both worlds. I don't know if regular denso alts can be modded for the vac. pump ?

Mark : nothing yet, is probably -hopefully- still in the pipe ?
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Old 11-11-2006, 06:49 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Denis, i got both e-mails back stating they are to large. It's around 12 Mb, do you have another e-mail i can use?
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Old 11-11-2006, 06:54 AM   #24 (permalink)
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denisd@ifrance.com or http://yousendit.com ?
Sorry for the trouble apparently yahoo is even more retarded than I
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Old 11-11-2006, 07:17 AM   #25 (permalink)
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hey georg...

just tossin this out there:
my roommate (VTCruiser on mud) put a 1-HZ into his hj60.
it is pretty dang cool if you ask me...awesome to drive, sounds ridiculous, and he can get parts reasonably quickly from canada

here's one of his conversion threads:
http://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=19578

he's in germany right now, but if you shoot him an email or PM via mud with any questions, he'll more than likely get back to you within a day or two

lovin all this diesel info guys!


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