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Old 07-31-2002, 01:00 PM   #1 (permalink)
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What are my options for going slower?

My setup is SM465, NP205, 4.10s (D60 rear and cruiser front), and 38.5 SXs. This setup works great here in WA on trails and in the mud but when I get to those few and far between obstacles (I once heard someone call them rocks ) I can't go as slow as I would like to (what a shock huh ).

I can slip the clutch and go pretty slow but it sometimes burns the clutch (12" chevy) and is difficult to be real smooth.


What do you think I have for options to go slower?


As I currently see it a few of the obvious options are just too expensive for me. For example, an Atlas would solve my problem but at a rough estimate of $2300 for Atlas and adapter it is too much for me currently.

Smaller tires are out of the question, I like these tires and they work great, also, with the dana 60 rear I need the ground clearance they give me.

My current crawl ratio is 54:1
A R&P gear swap to 5.29 front and 5.38 rear would help get me to 71:1
Change: a 31% better crawl ratio)
Cost: ~$600

A swap to a toyota pickup t-case which has a 2.28 low wouldn't do much (a change to 62:1...whoopee) and would cost about~$650

However, A swap to a toyota pickup t-case WITH A MARLIN CRAWLER (4.7 gears) would do the trick. Crawl ratio would be 127:1. However the costs would be about ~$1250 (~$500 adapter, minimum $750 for gears and t-case)

Of course, finding the desired gear sets and adapters used would cut the price quite a bit. How much difference do you think it would make by swapping in an automatic with a toy t-case? It sure would be smoother but would it help?

Got any other ideas or insights?

Whew! LONG POST

THANKS!
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Old 07-31-2002, 01:15 PM   #2 (permalink)
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go dual mini tcase and do not put the lower gearset in it.

That will get you reasonably low and you will still save money...
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Old 07-31-2002, 01:50 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I suggest smaller tires....that will definitely slow you down...

but seriously, a doubler is really your only good option, since it keeps your current range available for most stuff with the super low for the few times you need it. I'm geared almost identical, 62:1 with the same tires, and honestly, the times I NEED the doubler would be rare, but nice. It would be a fun toy on other occasions tho.

I've NEVER had to slip the clutch...just let the motor idle down to almost quitting, and it crawls plenty nice. Proved that his past weekend on some rocks at Attica - motor idles so low it damn near quits, but keeps going.

I have not yet decided between the Marlin setup or the 203 setup. For you I'd just do the 203.
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Old 07-31-2002, 01:52 PM   #4 (permalink)
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This pic is from Friday - I basically idled/feathered the gas to go up....tires spun but some wheel squirreling and it walked right up.

(yeah, I think the PBB only links to the pics now...)
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Old 07-31-2002, 02:08 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I agree the doubler is the way to go.

I will be running the 465/205/with 5:38's in the pumpkins until I can afford the adapter for the toy cases/or the 203 and adapter.

With the 465/203/205/5:38's I will be where I want to be. Just have to get the $$$ to get the adapter now.

For the record, anything I have seen above 150 to 1 or even 100 to 1 is just for braggin rights. My buddy has dual cases with 4 and 4.7 (I think) and that thing is so slow it's not even cool anymore.
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Old 07-31-2002, 02:15 PM   #6 (permalink)
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just to get off topic...
Quote:
For the record, anything I have seen above 150 to 1 or even 100 to 1 is just for braggin rights. My buddy has dual cases with 4 and 4.7 (I think) and that thing is so slow it's not even cool anymore.
Saying something like this allows me to guarantee you've NEVER been to surprise canyon!!
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Old 07-31-2002, 02:38 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aggro
just to get off topic...


Saying something like this allows me to guarantee you've NEVER been to surprise canyon!!
OK you got me there, and yeah I have seen the video, I agree....that would come in handy there. (Damn that shit is nuts!!!)
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Old 07-31-2002, 03:19 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Thanks for the opinions guys

I'm not familiar with the 203 doubler. How much does it add to the overall drivetrain length when using the sm465 and np205?
and how much $$ and who makes it (or is it a homemade kind of thing)? I suppose I could go search cause I swear I've seen alot of threads on it...I just was never interested enough to read them.

With doublers (even the toy duals) rear driveline angles and length become an issue. How are you guys dealing with it?

Right now I had to drop my t-case quite a bit and point the pinion up 14 degrees to get it to work. The driveline is 24" long but it is quite steep.

I use waggie springs and redrilled the perches to move the axle back another inch. Current wheel base is 97".


As for the low range marlin gears. I figured out that I would only lose approximately one gear (so to speak).
I'll explain; If I had the low gear set in a single toy t-case I would have to put the transmission in fourth gear (low range) to go as fast as I used to in third gear (low range).

SM465 and NP205
1st Gear: 4.10 x 6.58 x 2.00 = 54
2nd Gear:4.10 x 3.55 x 2.00 = 29
3rd Gear: 4.10 x 1.78 x 2.00 = 15
4th Gear: 4.10 x 1.00 x 2.00 = 8

SM465/Toy t-case w/marlin (4.70:1)
1st Gear: 4.10 x 6.58 x 4.70 = 127
2nd Gear: 4.10 x 3.55 x 4.70 = 68
3rd Gear: 4.10 x 1.78 x 4.70 = 34
4th Gear: 4.10 x 1.00 x 4.70 = 19

Anyone got an opinion on swapping in an Auto?
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Old 07-31-2002, 03:48 PM   #9 (permalink)
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you've got a hellaciuos crawl ratio compared to me, i'm still at a paultry 29:1. havent really had any probs on the trails around here, except for waterfall climbs, which i avoid till i get crawlin'
dont go auto unless you simply dont like the manual. besides, the rate you have to rev the engine to overcome the converter, will leave you still wanting lower gears anyway. most of the auto guys do.

mini doublers are good, here think about this for a minute;
2 stock minis= 5.20:1
mini with marlin gear=4.70:1
when you think of having two low options, 2.28 and 5.20 for the same price or less it only makes sense to double down. plus is much shorter than the 203 option

i dont know how much the 203 adds, i think about 8"? it adds a 2:1 to your set-up, ORD makes a good one.check it out
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Last edited by RHINO; 07-31-2002 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 07-31-2002, 03:57 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Okay, I went to IH8MUD like I should have earlier and am currently looking over the doubler articles. Thanks for that website woody it is a wealth of information.

As for the doubler vs low gears in the t-case...you've got a point that for the same or less the double t-case is a better way to go...IF your driveline angles can handle it. I guess I should check on how long a toyota double t-case plus sm465 adapter (from OTT) would be compared to my np205 plus stock adapter.

Still talking about $1000 for the OTT adapter and dual toy cases though

Looks like most of the guys using the 203/205 combo had no concern with rear drivelines as they had longer wheelbases than fj40s.
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Old 07-31-2002, 04:01 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Have you seen Marlin's new SM465/Toybox adapter? Only 1" thick. This is the way I would go. You could do a single case for now, and duals in the future, or put a Dana 300 behind it in the future.

http://www.marlincrawler.com/dual_toybox.html
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Old 07-31-2002, 04:17 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Very interesting new development. Thanks Ben!

I'm still trying to decipher exactly what it is. Maybe you can help.
Is it a 1.2" plate adapter between the sm465 and toy t-case?
Or is a 1.2" plate adapter between the sm465 and toy reduction box and then toy t-case?
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Old 07-31-2002, 04:24 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tankota
Very interesting new development. Thanks Ben!

I'm still trying to decipher exactly what it is. Maybe you can help.
Is it a 1.2" plate adapter between the sm465 and toy t-case?
Or is a 1.2" plate adapter between the sm465 and toy reduction box and then toy t-case?

It appears to me to be a 2 piece adapter, 1.2" thick. It allows you to bolt a Toyota mini-truck T-case, or just the reduction box portion of the mini-truck t-case, to the SM465. You can run either the single case, or buy an additional adapter to run dual yota cases, or buy a different additional adapter to run a cruiser case behind the mini-truck reduction box.

Seems to me the best bang for the buck would be the dual minitruck cases, $898 for the adapters, and I think the minitruck t-cases go for around $100 each, you'd need two of them. The advantage the Marlin adapter has over the OTT adapter is it is several inches shorter.
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Old 07-31-2002, 04:34 PM   #14 (permalink)
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the "toybox" is the reduction unit from the toy case, i think they call it that to compete with AA on the "rocbox" of the same applications. the adapter you are lookin for is the $449 plate that mates your tranny to the toy case as ben said, at 2.28 your a bit better than the 205 at 1.96, then later you can add the doubler or your own junkyard found box with the adapter to put to toy cases together, i think about $400.
this is the set-up i was mentioning, i know it is much shorter than the 203 option and gets even lower gears.
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Old 07-31-2002, 04:55 PM   #15 (permalink)
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The ORD 203/205 Doubler would be about 26" long from the back of the tranny to the rear u-joint yoke.

http://www.offroaddesign.com/catalog/doubler.htm

I can't find any numbers on the total length of the Toyota mini-truck t-cases, but I'm sure it would be significantly shorter, and much lighter.
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Old 08-01-2002, 07:48 AM   #16 (permalink)
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The total length of the SM465-NP203-NP205 is 37.5" long. That is too long for an FJ40 unless the wheelbase has been stretched out to over 100". In addition to the ORD website, I have a fairly detailed discussion of this combination on my truggy website . Since I have the wheelbase (105") the 203/205 doubler is going to work well for me and yield a crawl ratio of about 155:1
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Old 08-01-2002, 08:50 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I'm in a similar situation as tank, although I'm only on 35's for the time being, have the same 465/205 combo, but mine is behind a V-8. Planning on 37's/38's after the spring-over.

Will the toy cases hold up to V-8 + 465 low gear? I'm normally a light foot, but have hammered it when I couldn't crawl it.

And, how strong (impacts) are the toy cases? my 205 is used as a skid plate sometimes, and also held up when the rear leaf snapped and the driveline got pushed up ~1.5" after the axle moved forward/compressed the D/S.. Wouldn't I have cracked the toy case with that impact? I just don't want to give up 205 strength!
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Old 08-01-2002, 10:21 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Thanks for the info guys!

I'm thinking that the marlin adapter with the dual t-case (toys) will work out the best since the 203/205 is a bit too long for my wheelbase.

Eskimo, I also have a v-8. I am not to easy on the go pedal but with 11 years wheeling the beast I have learned when to let off the gas in order to save parts .
I also was concerned about the strength of the toy t-cases and after checking around alot I found that they were plenty strong for a SBC. They are alot stronger than a cruiser t-case. The only bummer is that I will lose half of my 1 ton rear driveline (1350 u-joints)...unless I can find a flange that will work...

I did notice that marlin has redesigned the gear in the toy box. It is stronger now because he removed that necked down area.
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Old 08-01-2002, 10:56 AM   #19 (permalink)
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So Tank, have you found info on the length of the 465/marlin adapter/toy/toy vs. our current 465/OEM spacer/205? I really can't afford a shorter driveline...

I'm tempted to do the 4.7 single case just for the driveline angles...
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