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Old 03-08-2008, 01:49 PM   #701 (permalink)
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You can feel the effects of a panhard at speed through the bumps if you are either cycling a lot of travel or have a really short panhard (axle and body moving opposite directions).

You can also play with the angle/height of the panhard to virtually eliminate body roll.

For the lower links, who says you can't run them just like the lowers on your 4 links? Or are you just trying to keep it simple and use the TG parts?

Honestly, I seriously doubt you'll be able to feel the difference between the 2 setups. I bet the biggest difference will be from the coilovers. You've been running 1/4 ellip on all the 4 links, right? The CO's are always pushing out, nuetral is full extension. Causes some quirky stuff, kinda sucks going down trails without a rear winch to the axle. But with the right tuning, winch, limit straps and maybe a sway bar, it should be sweet!
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Old 03-08-2008, 01:59 PM   #702 (permalink)
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You can feel the effects of a panhard at speed through the bumps if you are either cycling a lot of travel or have a really short panhard (axle and body moving opposite directions).

You can also play with the angle/height of the panhard to virtually eliminate body roll.

For the lower links, who says you can't run them just like the lowers on your 4 links? Or are you just trying to keep it simple and use the TG parts?

Honestly, I seriously doubt you'll be able to feel the difference between the 2 setups. I bet the biggest difference will be from the coilovers. You've been running 1/4 ellip on all the 4 links, right? The CO's are always pushing out, nuetral is full extension. Causes some quirky stuff, kinda sucks going down trails without a rear winch to the axle. But with the right tuning, winch, limit straps and maybe a sway bar, it should be sweet!
excellent info, thanks brandon! my rear panhard is 40'' long and high/flat at ride height...the front is a different story for clearance issues with frame rails, steering components...its still long enough, but has some angle to it, nearly perfectly paralell with the drag link, but not flat by any means

i was super leary of running 4 coilovers on this truck from the get go and getting lost in the valve pack tuning, spring rates, etc...i originally had the fox coilovers without the springs on them and trail gear 3'' rear leafs....hopefully i dont end up with a big mess and frustration do to my leaps and bounds of changes in suspension setup that im not familiar with...yes, all my other trucks were 1/4 eliptical with little compression travel and no need for a sway bar or valve tuning, spring rate was obviously easy to change...
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Old 03-08-2008, 02:40 PM   #703 (permalink)
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Good news for you, BV just posted the 1st installment of his coilover bible!
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billav...lovers/Part_1/

From what I understand with co's (I've only played with air shocks and emulsion shocks), it's not that hard to tune things to work "just fine" but when you are trying to get the most performance possible, it starts getting tedious. The only part that worries me is selecting the right coils. Seems like everyone gets them wrong the first couple times, and they aren't cheap to keep buying...
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Old 03-08-2008, 07:21 PM   #704 (permalink)
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Good news for you, BV just posted the 1st installment of his coilover bible!
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billav...lovers/Part_1/

From what I understand with co's (I've only played with air shocks and emulsion shocks), it's not that hard to tune things to work "just fine" but when you are trying to get the most performance possible, it starts getting tedious. The only part that worries me is selecting the right coils. Seems like everyone gets them wrong the first couple times, and they aren't cheap to keep buying...
thanks for the link!! poly perf is really good about swapping out coils, but they get scratched up just banging them around installing them...
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Old 03-09-2008, 09:16 AM   #705 (permalink)
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1.0 solid cold rolled+1.25dom+1.5dom=solid 1 1/2'' tie rod with 7/8'' heim ends
That solid rod in the center adds weight, but not much strength. Its the outside diameter where the strength increase is. That's why you can gun drill axles and put speed holes in the center of stuff, but not lose much strength. I can look up the link where strength/weight calcs are for different diameter/thickness of tubing. You'd be a lot better off leaving the 1" rod out and sleeving it w/ some 1.75.

I'm swapping my slightly bowed 1.5x.120 + 1.25x.250 (1.5x.375) Rockstomper TR for a 1.75x.250 TR that is stronger and a little lighter.


Got my rear links done yesteday. Now to work on shocks/bumpstops/coils/airbag.
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Old 03-09-2008, 09:34 AM   #706 (permalink)
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That solid rod in the center adds weight, but not much strength. Its the outside diameter where the strength increase is. That's why you can gun drill axles and put speed holes in the center of stuff, but not lose much strength. I can look up the link where strength/weight calcs are for different diameter/thickness of tubing. You'd be a lot better off leaving the 1" rod out and sleeving it w/ some 1.75.

I'm swapping my slightly bowed 1.5x.120 + 1.25x.250 (1.5x.375) Rockstomper TR for a 1.75x.250 TR that is stronger and a little lighter.


Got my rear links done yesteday. Now to work on shocks/bumpstops/coils/airbag.
i think the solid tubing is considerableey stronger for a 90* hit and bending forces, but like you said, neglegible in torsional rigidity and compression/tensile type forces?? i could be wrong, again

if what you say is true, we'd all be runing 4'' OD .120 wall links, no? if your right, i hate you for telling me this after ive got it all welded up
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Old 03-09-2008, 10:05 AM   #707 (permalink)
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I dont like panhards because of the side to side movement it causes in the body. If you get big wheel travel with a panhard you will typically get a lot of side to side swing of the axle when going through vertical wheel travel. This causes the body to shift side to side.

If you run front and rear panhards and they are opposing the body will pivot through wheel travel. If you run the panhard bars the same way it will corner different each dirrection. This can be particularly noticable if you have a lot of body roll.

I have driven a TJ with panhards front and rear and it is noticable with 12" of wheel travel. I have also heard other people compain of the same thing.

If you just want to go rockcrawling then a panhard will be fine. If you want to go fast through the woops I would reccomend a really long, flat panhard or a triangulated suspension.

I am on V2.2 of my rear suspension & V3.0 will eventually happen. Since you have already started you may as well finish it. If you dont like it then you can change it down the road. And next time someone asks the question you can be the authority on the matter
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Old 03-09-2008, 01:58 PM   #708 (permalink)
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If I did the calculations right,

1.75x.250 wall is 4.0lbs/ft and has a MOI of .341
1.5x.750 wall (solid) is 6.0lbs/ft and has a MOI of .249

The first is 37% stiffer in bending and 33% lighter. Don't hate!

1.5x.250 wall is 3.34lbs/ft and has an MOI of .199

By adding the solid rod to yours you added 20% to the strength, but 80% to the weight!


Think about this:
You could jump on a 6' chunk of 1" rod and bend it pretty easily, but not some 1.75x.120, even though the 1.75 is actually less steel.
1x.5 (solid) is 2.67lbs/ft
1.75x.120 is 2.09lbs/ft
You can see it in the numbers: The MOI of 1" solid is only .049, while the 1.75 is 2.05. That's 4 times stiffer in bending... and its lighter!


Yes, there is a balancing act between wall thickness and kink/dent resistance, as well as diameter since you don't want to have a giant tube for clearance issues... but I think .188 and especially .250 is pretty hard to dent in the diameters we are working with.


MOI and lb/ft calcs here:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showp...7&postcount=59

MOI (moment of inertia) is a bend strength calculation. The 4-link calculator uses it on the materials tab (along with material property and link length) to find the bend strength of your link.
The 4-link calc is the easiest way to calculate the MOI and lbs/ft by just plugging in the material dia/thickness. For lbs/ft just make your link length 12" or divide the link weight by the link length in feet (42"=3.5', etc.).

If you read that thread you'll see why I'm using square tube for my lowers.

Last edited by ErikB; 03-09-2008 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 03-09-2008, 02:25 PM   #709 (permalink)
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So, do you thing a single piece of 1.5 x .250 DOM would be strong enough for a Panhard bar? the reason I ask is I'm building an almost identical rig, and just trying to save some $$

Thanks
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Old 03-10-2008, 11:17 PM   #710 (permalink)
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well, definitely need the oil sump swap done, the drain plug is touching the panhard just at ride height...i need to adjust the panhard to move the axle about 1/2'' over, no can do as its resting against the sump...
Your build has been very helpfull

I am building 42's and 1 tons under a turbod 96 lx450 right now. ARBed d70 with radius arms and panhard in rear and 3link with panhard ARBed d60 front. my front is congested and has packaging issues similar to yours. You certainly know what you're doing more so than myself and so I pose a question more for my benifit than yours:

What would happen if you were to offset your axle side panhard mount farther in front of the axle so as to allow easier clearance between the panhard and diff cover so to allow the panhard to drop lower and avoid the oilpan? In other words: why not move the entire panhard assembly forward? what complications does this present?
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Old 03-11-2008, 08:27 AM   #711 (permalink)
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What would happen if you were to offset your axle side panhard mount farther in front of the axle so as to allow easier clearance between the panhard and diff cover so to allow the panhard to drop lower and avoid the oilpan? In other words: why not move the entire panhard assembly forward? what complications does this present?
It doesn't change anything except that the panhard mount on the axle is now longer, and therefore needs to be stronger.

What I did on mine is moved just the frame end mount forward so that the PH clears the diff cover when the axle stuffs, but the axle end mount still isn't forward/longer. The axle end is probably 2" in front of the axle and the frame end is probably 8" in front of the axle. Drag link is similar, so the geometry doesn't affect the steering.


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Old 03-11-2008, 09:38 AM   #712 (permalink)
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I dont like panhards because of the side to side movement it causes in the body. If you get big wheel travel with a panhard you will typically get a lot of side to side swing of the axle when going through vertical wheel travel. This causes the body to shift side to side.

If you run front and rear panhards and they are opposing the body will pivot through wheel travel. If you run the panhard bars the same way it will corner different each dirrection. This can be particularly noticable if you have a lot of body roll.

I have driven a TJ with panhards front and rear and it is noticable with 12" of wheel travel. I have also heard other people compain of the same thing.

If you just want to go rockcrawling then a panhard will be fine. If you want to go fast through the woops I would reccomend a really long, flat panhard or a triangulated suspension.
So you are saying if you run the front and rear panhards off different sides of the frame the body will pivot? What exaclty do you mean by this?
So which do you say is a better option, mounting them off the same side of the frame or mounting them off different sides of the frame?

In your opinion what length constitutes a really long panhard?
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Old 03-11-2008, 10:15 AM   #713 (permalink)
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if you look at the vehicle from the top view. While traveling over a big roller for example. As the suspension unloads the chassis will rotate.

Mounting them opposite is your best bet.

A long panhard would ideally keep the maximum angles under 10 degrees each dirrection.

Shifting the panhard too far forward can, in extreme situations, cause weird shit to happen. But again, it is all dependant on your other geometry.
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Old 03-11-2008, 08:32 PM   #714 (permalink)
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thanks for all the help for sure! trd, im4toyotas, erik....

erik, im cool with the solid tie rod, it is much greater resistant to denting, which eventually will bend...you would know better than i having run high steer all my wheeling, but im sure a tierod in regualr crossover steering is just as prone to destruction by rock hits as a set of lower links are. once you dent them, your done sooner or later(much sooner)as they will bend @ the dent, if the solid adds in dent resistance, its worth its weight for sure...

after reading the article you posted i could have made my links in 1/4'' wall square 2'' or 2.5''(free at work), instead of the few hundreds ive spent on thick walled DOM tubing over the last few builds...a few companies even sell threaded inserts for square tubing(rod ends)

i also made an adjustable link that can be changed in size to fit any of my links and also the tie rod location in emergency.........it also fits the lower link location on the red rocket 4runner i sold my friend, and i believe 408 jiggas one ton trucks lowers(we all wheel together and can share a spare in a time of need)...
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Old 03-11-2008, 08:35 PM   #715 (permalink)
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Your build has been very helpfull

I am building 42's and 1 tons under a turbod 96 lx450 right now. ARBed d70 with radius arms and panhard in rear and 3link with panhard ARBed d60 front. my front is congested and has packaging issues similar to yours. You certainly know what you're doing more so than myself and so I pose a question more for my benifit than yours:

What would happen if you were to offset your axle side panhard mount farther in front of the axle so as to allow easier clearance between the panhard and diff cover so to allow the panhard to drop lower and avoid the oilpan? In other words: why not move the entire panhard assembly forward? what complications does this present?
awesome build! feel free to post some pics, i think you have to be a member on mud to few pics?? as you can see its helpful to post pics and ask Q's here, guys help you out/thru your build...as they have me
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Old 03-11-2008, 08:41 PM   #716 (permalink)
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i dont think panhards are going to be an issues here as both my axles are limited in extreme amounts of verticle travel(not articulation) to save driveshaft cv's...we'll see soon enough as i plan to take the ole gal to pismo and make sure the air bumps work correctly

nevertheless, i can easily swap the rear over to the triangulated stuff im used to if im willing to cut a hole in the bed under the tool box for the tank...i even have the junk to make the extra upper link. im sure ill hate the 127ish wheelbase and will wanna shorten it sooner or later...
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Old 03-11-2008, 09:02 PM   #717 (permalink)
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You going to make it out to the Jambo?
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Old 03-11-2008, 09:38 PM   #718 (permalink)
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You going to make it out to the Jambo?

i dont think so, bought two plane tickets to alaska for kayaking/glacier backpacking with my son in august and used up my vacation time
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Old 03-11-2008, 09:53 PM   #719 (permalink)
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i dont think so, bought two plane tickets to alaska for kayaking/glacier backpacking with my son in august and used up my vacation time
I'll probably have an open seat if you want to go. Like the old days
I'll head up Thursday night...
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Old 03-11-2008, 09:57 PM   #720 (permalink)
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I'll probably have an open seat if you want to go. Like the old days
I'll head up Thursday night...

what day do you plan to return??
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Old 03-11-2008, 09:58 PM   #721 (permalink)
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what day do you plan to return??
Sunday night.
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Old 03-11-2008, 10:54 PM   #722 (permalink)
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Why not run Al for teh tie rod? I've seen some take some hits and return to straight
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Old 03-12-2008, 10:36 AM   #723 (permalink)
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...a few companies even sell threaded inserts for square tubing(rod ends)
True, although I don't think lowers (where the strength is really needed) really need to be adjustable, but those will work if you want to use heims. I just welded JJ's to the square tube and it worked perfect and was relatively cheap!

Quote:
i also made an adjustable link that can be changed in size to fit any of my links and also the tie rod location in emergency.........it also fits the lower link location on the red rocket 4runner i sold my friend, and i believe 408 jiggas one ton trucks lowers(we all wheel together and can share a spare in a time of need)...
Awesome, you are way ahead of me on that one. All my links are the same length except the panhard (~5" shorter), and my TR uses different threads.
Aluminum is something I haven't looked into. I'm guessing $$$ for material and machining tho. Probably need another $ digit there by the time you get done with 8 links and a TR!

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i dont think so, bought two plane tickets to alaska for kayaking/glacier backpacking with my son in august and used up my vacation time
Call in sick! (you may be afterwards anyway!)
I want to see your Taco there and we can see how our rigs work in the whoops and the dunes!
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Old 03-12-2008, 06:32 PM   #724 (permalink)
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Why not run Al for teh tie rod? I've seen some take some hits and return to straight
i actually looked into aluminum for lower links, it was pretty expensive for solid 1.75, drilled and tapped...i think it was heat treated too?

there was a kid on here selling some 7075(?) in the bay area but he didnt really return my PM's??? i gave up on it
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Old 03-12-2008, 06:32 PM   #725 (permalink)
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Sunday night.

PM me your number, its not on my new phone
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