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Old 12-27-2004, 05:15 PM   #1 (permalink)
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22R/20R hybrid engine questions

Alright, so I got a truck with a rebuilt hybrid motor in it. Spun a rod bearing after 1k miles since the PO didn't do any bottom end work, except for new pistons and shit so I'm taking my time to rebuild it now. I took the block and crank to the machine shop, and told the guy it was a 20R head. He said that these engines (the 22R/20R hybrids) really suck ass, too much compression, and they ping and stuff even with supreme fuel. So, is that the truth? Am I going to continue to blow up bottom end bearings with an engine like this? It has a mild LCE cam if that makes a difference. Anyone who has any experience on this would be great!
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Old 12-27-2004, 06:08 PM   #2 (permalink)
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been there and doing that it sucked ass till i put it on propane no ping anymore and hauls ass.If the bottom end is done right then it wont come apart.
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Old 12-27-2004, 08:40 PM   #3 (permalink)
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i think it only bumps the compression up to around 10:1

to me, it's kinda pointless in a 4x4, you need grunt there. now, if this was a little sport truck or a celica it would be a good idea, since a 22R winds out at around 5000RPM
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Old 12-27-2004, 09:22 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Guess I'll start lookin around for a 22R head then... Anyone need a rebuilt 20R head??
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Old 12-27-2004, 10:46 PM   #5 (permalink)
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if you have run it, you won't have problems with it if you build it right. make sure your timing is dead on, and that you are running the right jets in your carb.
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Old 12-27-2004, 11:08 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle_22r
i think it only bumps the compression up to around 10:1

to me, it's kinda pointless in a 4x4, you need grunt there. now, if this was a little sport truck or a celica it would be a good idea, since a 22R winds out at around 5000RPM

Your plain and simply not going to get any usefull grunt out of any toy 4 popper.. Been there done that sunck over 7k in motor configurations..
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Old 12-28-2004, 02:54 PM   #7 (permalink)
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my 4cyl does alright on the road and i've never had a complaint offroad, but i'm not gonna spend 7k on a 4 banger in a 4x4

actually i've got close to 2k into the 22R that's getting built in my garage...but most of that stuff is just stupid little things like plug wires and flywheel bolts. motor components themselves are probably closer to $700
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Old 12-28-2004, 04:03 PM   #8 (permalink)
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If the compression is too high and it is pinging, then you are not going to wreak your bottom end your going to melt your pistons. Have you thought about water injection to keep the detonation under control?
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Old 12-28-2004, 06:25 PM   #9 (permalink)
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man you don't need any of that crap, I have been running a 20/22 for 2 years and never had a problem, just jet your carb right, and time it, and you will not ping
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Old 12-28-2004, 09:37 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I have been running my 20/22R bored 1.00mm over for many years and hard miles.
My motor does not ping, puff, or melt pistons.
The bottom end is more than strong enought for this minor upgrade.
I beleive it bumps the C. R. from 8.4:1 [20R], to 9.5:1 [hybred].

Could it be that the machine shop is afraid of warrenty claims on a crank kit in a motor that is only half rebuilt?
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Old 12-29-2004, 02:26 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlin Crawler
I have been running my 20/22R bored 1.00mm over for many years and hard miles.
My motor does not ping, puff, or melt pistons.
The bottom end is more than strong enought for this minor upgrade.
I beleive it bumps the C. R. from 8.4:1 [20R], to 9.5:1 [hybred].

Could it be that the machine shop is afraid of warrenty claims on a crank kit in a motor that is only half rebuilt?

I was gonna bore my junk over 0.020.

I don't know if the machine shop is afraid of warrenty. I just don't want a motor that is gonna blow in a few thousand miles. I want something that will let me drive around town and that I can beat on.

Marlin- what are the specs on your motor? How advanced are you running the timing? My engine was supposed to go as followed:

20R head (obviously )
LCE cam
thorley header
weber 38 carb
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Old 12-29-2004, 09:43 AM   #12 (permalink)
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i was under the impression that because the combustion chambers are almost exactly the same size from the 20r to the earley 22r that the compression should hardley change at all.pm bkubisht,when i was looking at building one of these,he gave me tons of good info.
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Old 12-29-2004, 10:45 AM   #13 (permalink)
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A friend of mine built one of these for his 85 years ago. It made some decent power, but he eventually swapped in a small block. But if I recall there was an issue with different pistons between the two heads. Might have been a efi to carbed motor difference, but I know he went from an efi 22re to a 22r bottom end with a 20r head, crane cam, cannon intake and a weber 32/36. After messing with the weber on a few cold mornings he wanted to swap the efi back in with his old 22re head. But there was a piston to valve clearance issue.
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Old 12-29-2004, 10:54 AM   #14 (permalink)
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22r hybrid

The truck that I bought has a 22r block and a 20r head. I haven't had any problems with it pinging. Keep it tuned up and timed correctly. It runs great, but since I didn't build it, I don't know what went into the bottom end.
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Old 12-29-2004, 09:38 PM   #15 (permalink)
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There is only issues with piston/valves with the later 22R blocks, I think post 85 short deck vs. tall deck of the earlier 22R's. I won't have that issue with my 83. According to engnbldr, compression is almost identical (8.4:1 of the 22R to 9.0:1 of the 20R), the 20R head does allow for better reving and movement of fuel/air through the head, it flow about 20 cfm more stock. The combustion chamber design is different, the 20R has a hemispherical chamber vs. the swirl port of the 22R. Pistons on the 22R are domed in the pre 85 versions and flat tops in the the latter. Last but not least, my Truck will ping like crazy if I run the ethanol based fuels out there, fortunately for me I can go 10 minutes outside of town and get non-ethanol fuel. This is especially bad during the winter months here in New Mexico, when the air nazis require this crap at the pumps from November to February. I agree on the timing issue and make sure you're jetted right on the carb. What sort of ignition are you running, anything out of the norm?

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Old 12-29-2004, 10:49 PM   #16 (permalink)
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you've got those numbers backwards, 20R has 8.4:1 compression while an early 22R has 9.0:1. the thing is, a 20R uses a nearly flat top piston(small recessed ring around the outside) while the early 22R uses a piston with a volcano shaped dome in it. that takes up more space in the combustion chamber than the 20R piston...with a domed chamber, you're not gonna make that great of compression with a flat piston

i was at the junkyard the other day and noticed a 21R engine with its head of...looked like it used a full dome piston? kinda cool, but useless since its bore is even smaller than that of a 20R. i think you can use the head from it, though, pretty sure it's the same(or similar) as a 20R. kind of like how some celica people do an 18R motor/8R head combo

Last edited by kyle_22r; 12-29-2004 at 10:50 PM.
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Old 12-30-2004, 11:28 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Your machinist incorrect, he has probably never cc'd a head before. I'm not a machinist, but I've cc'd both 20r and early 22r heads, and the numbers put up by LC and TCR are correct. The combustion volume within the head are about the same size. I took my head in and had something like .050 milled off of it, going after a bump of compression.

Don't go crazy with milling if you want to run the crawler cam. And on that thorley header, get one with an O2 bung so you can use an O2 sensor and a voltmeter to jet your carb correctly.

If you're going to have your bottom end redone, keep one of your old pistons and tell whoever you order from that you want new ones that are like the old ones. One reason I milled so much off my head is that the aftermarket [?topline?] pistons had a much smaller crown, and I wanted to at least have the same compression ratio I started with.

If it pings, retard the timing or recurve the distributor. Do a search for 'carb tuning' here.

EDIT: if you still decide to go with the 22R head, I've got a friend here that would be very interested in buying your rebuilt 20R head. PM me if interested.

Last edited by bkubisht; 12-30-2004 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 12-30-2004, 03:50 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Your machinist incorrect, he has probably never cc'd a head before. I'm not a machinist, but I've cc'd both 20r and early 22r heads, and the numbers put up by LC and TCR are correct. The combustion volume within the head are about the same size.
Granted the chamber sizes are about the same size, but head design (port design and chamber shape) allow the head to flow better. Theroretically up to about 5500 to 6000 rpm.

tico
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Old 12-30-2004, 07:11 PM   #19 (permalink)
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(quote)i was at the junkyard the other day and noticed a 21R engine with its head of...looked like it used a full dome piston? kinda cool, but useless since its bore is even smaller than that of a 20R. i think you can use the head from it, though, pretty sure it's the same(or similar) as a 20R. kind of like how some celica people do an 18R motor/8R head combo[/QUOTE]

ya I saw that at pickapart the other day also kinda neat, someone nabed the whole motor though now, who knows why though
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Old 12-30-2004, 08:05 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Thanks for the replies, everyone.

bkubisht: You have a PM.
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Old 12-31-2004, 08:26 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NitroRClover
I was gonna bore my junk over 0.020.

I don't know if the machine shop is afraid of warrenty. I just don't want a motor that is gonna blow in a few thousand miles. I want something that will let me drive around town and that I can beat on.

Marlin- what are the specs on your motor? How advanced are you running the timing? My engine was supposed to go as followed:

20R head (obviously )
LCE cam
thorley header
weber 38 carb
I'd dump the LCE cam and get a CompCam 252S or EB's Crawler 261. The Weber 38 may be too much carb. The Weber carbs are very tempermental very tricky to tune on 22s and ignition timing and the air/fuel mixture is critical to optimizing performance (and avoiding pinging)... assuming you end up with around (9:1 compression ratio). BKU.. is right about the O2 bung, and air/fuel guage will really help with tuning your Weber. TJMHO.
Gnarls.

Last edited by Gnarly4X; 12-31-2004 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 12-31-2004, 10:48 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtytoy
(quote)i was at the junkyard the other day and noticed a 21R engine with its head of...looked like it used a full dome piston? kinda cool, but useless since its bore is even smaller than that of a 20R. i think you can use the head from it, though, pretty sure it's the same(or similar) as a 20R. kind of like how some celica people do an 18R motor/8R head combo
ya I saw that at pickapart the other day also kinda neat, someone nabed the whole motor though now, who knows why though[/QUOTE]
i snagged the exhaust manifold and heater controls out of that one a while back

tearin the old motor and tranny out of my truck today...in goes a 22R and L52
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Old 12-31-2004, 12:04 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnarly4X
I'd dump the LCE cam and get a CompCam 252S or EB's Crawler 261. The Weber 38 may be too much carb. The Weber carbs are very tempermental very tricky to tune on 22s and ignition timing and the air/fuel mixture is critical to optimizing performance (and avoiding pinging)... assuming you end up with around (9:1 compression ratio). BKU.. is right about the O2 bung, and air/fuel guage will really help with tuning your Weber. TJMHO.
Gnarls.
Yeah, I am probably going to just run a straight 22R, with the compcam or the EB cam, as I'd rather have low end torque than high end. I've studied your dyno numbers too much

And the thorley headers that I have (I actually have 2, one is for sale in the misc section) both have 02 sensors in them.

As for the carb... well I have 3. Rebuilt stock toy, smog legal 32/36, and a non smog legal 38. I'll probably just experiment with them all and see what happens.
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Old 12-31-2004, 05:22 PM   #24 (permalink)
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you know the only problem with my 20/22 hybrid was figuring out the heater hose routing, they are dif from 20 to 22 intakes.
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Old 12-31-2004, 05:44 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtytoy
you know the only problem with my 20/22 hybrid was figuring out the heater hose routing, they are dif from 20 to 22 intakes.
The engine I have has an adaptor plate between the intake and the head. So, it is just a regular 22R (carb, intake, block, etc) except for the 20R head. It adapts the 22R intake to the 20R head.
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