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Forward shackles and flipped springs

9K views 40 replies 19 participants last post by  Roksamy 
#1 · (Edited)
Finally sold the buggy and now it's time to think about my next project I'm calling "back to basics." It's going to be multi-purpose and most of all, a driver. with my first truck I had no real complaints with my leaf spring setup, it flexed great and rode like a caddy. I want to improve on that though. This time around, I'm looking for a low, balanced and generally excellent performing setup. I'd like to see this discussion head towards some hardcore leaf-spring tech, what works and what doesn't and most importantly why. If you want to talk about how cool your 4 link is, take it somewhere else. I have built a very well thought out and executed 4 link on the buggy, but not this vehicle.
To start things off, I'm considering running a front shackle setup similar to what Zuk ran. Has anyone else done this and with what springs and most importantly how does it perform, both on and off road. Zuk, are you still running this setup or are you running a buggy now? I'm considering running a hybrid 51" IFS rear pack. Here are my thoughts for running a shackle in front:

-By using the long side of the spring as the fixed end, an already very flexible spring will be more flexible, since it will be working with a longer radius point.

-Under compression, with the fixed end of the spring at the rear, the tire will move towards the front of the vehicle and allow me to run less lift since I won't have to worry about wheel-well contact.

Now the potential downsides that I see are:

-Ride, having the wheel move away from the body while crawling sounds good, but the same will be true at highway speeds. The wheel will be forced to move against it's own momentum. I know many jeepers do shackle reversals and move their forward shackles to the rear, but how bad is the ride really?

-Bending springs, I remeber many people talking about pushing the shackle into something and bending the spring. This is a real concern. My thought is to build a custom hanger and use a shackle similar to what Hendrix Motorsports is selling for the formula toys. This setup would allow the shackle to bottom against the front crossmember. Would this be enough to keep the spring from bending?

Is this an idea that is phoesable or am I going to be disappointed in the ride or performance? The traditional setup is proven and I have built several that perform great... just thinking of trying something a little different.

Now onto the rear. With the IFS spring being a popular swap for front ends, I started thinking about why people take them out in the first place. A Chevy spring is a little longer, but I noticed that in OEM fashion the rear springs are mounted with the long side to the back. What about flipping it around and running the short side towards the back for potentially increased departure angle, certainly better flex and if combined with a forward shackle front end setup, the fixed end of the front and rear springs would be the same length and with some spring pack tweaking should perfrom very balanced.
 
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#3 ·
I'm in the middle of my SAS conversion right now and i'm runnin my shackles up front. I'm doin a slider style, i still have to weld a plate on teh front part of the shackle but with it like this i figure if i hit something it will be more prone to be pushed under onto the spring and then the tires can roll over it, so it won't bend the spring. Here's a link to the pics of my truck so far.
http://photobucket.com/albums/v470/one_fast_guy/Truck%20Project/
 
#4 ·
I've been running my front shackles for 4 years now and would definately do it again. I have had problems bending springs with the 48" rears, but finally fixed that problem by adding a second mil wrap leaf (toyota) backwards with a new center hole. I also have a stop built into my front shackle.

I like how they climb. I don't think they wrap nearly as much. And I also use a stock toy spline on my front drive shaft.

As far as road manners, I haven't noticed any bad traits. It rides worse because of the SX's than the forward shackles.

You going to the Jambo? I'll have it there (since someone else won the Bender truck).
 
#5 ·
Wv4runner- I picked up an '89 4cyl single cab almsot a month ago and will be building it.

MYG- Ncie truck and work. Are you going to be able to get your steering box far enough forward? Under compression, the axle will be moving towards it. I may look into having a double passenger arm built and run my drag link behind the axle.

Nobrainr- I still don't know about the jambo. I want to go just to ride in my buggy. I need to see who is going from up here still. Do you have any pictures of your setup?
 
#6 ·
I find the only benefit to running shackles up front is needing less spline on full droop. On my Samurai, I broke 2 or 3 front mains a season. After the shackle reversal no problems. I also found on road manners were much better with the shackle at the rear of the spring. With the shackle at the front, the axle will move forward during compression. Like if your climbing a rock, your tire will try to push into it as it travels up, if you are bound up this is when you'll break or bend springs. With the shackle in the rear, the tire will move back and up, much less resistance. Example, your shoveling your sidewalk and you hit a crack, the shovel stops hard, shackle in the rear is like dragging the shovel beheind you now you can go over curbs.

Just my .02
 
#7 · (Edited)
There's a couple pics of the shackles on this thread http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90549

If you want some more I can post them tonight when I get home from work

My leafs are almost flat, so when they compress, the axle starts moving back. If you run a spring with a large arch, then I'd think you'd run into more problems. And with the 38.5's I run now, the front of my tire is almost even with the front of my springs.
 
#8 ·
I know its not a toy but I figured I'd reply anyway since I'm running shackles in the front on my truck, and I think it works pretty damn well for what I use it for. Rides fine on the highway. The setup is, Early bronco superlift 3.5in springs with 5.5in shackles, spring under waggy d44. I drive the truck about 50mi a day which is why I went for spring under for low COG.


Sorry for the posuer pics, dont have anything better.




The tires are 33s, and there is probably 30in to the lowest point on the tire from the ground at street pressure.
 
#9 · (Edited)
(i converted from coils to leafs on my Jeep MJ truck)

I like having my shackle forward, as you mentioned no firewall or long-travel driveshaft issues. I feel like it climbs better because it "pushes" the tire into a rock more, but the chance of bending springs is real if you don't have military wrap and/or shackle stop like you mentioned. I use 3.5" BDS YJ springs which have about 3-4" of arch at ride height, the street ride is great, especially with bilstein 5100s

for the rear, I would recommend a very thick spring-pack to avoid axle wrap, but inboard the springs to gain flex.
 

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#11 ·
Wilson said:
Crossover guys, how about some pics of your steering clearance? I'm going to call Sky about my double arm idea...
I'll dig through my pics later tonight when I have time, but no issues with mine, since its spring under. I crossover with a parts mike arm, 10deg correction, and the tie rod in the stock position. My drag link sits ontop of my pitman (but thats just because nissan chose to ream it out from the top so i kept it that way).
 
#14 ·
NoBrainR said:
I use AP hy steer arms, no problems or interference.

Can you venture a guess as to how far forward your front axle is, compared to stock? I've been getting away with about 4" running the standard setup but see a possible conflict with the steering box and forward shackle hanger.

-Others who have replied, can you venture the same guess?
 
#16 ·
I've had sackles up front for awhile now
set#1 51" with full length AAL
got bent severly
set#2 48"
flipped mill. wrap and redrilled center pin
closed spring clamps
a mixture of rears and waggys
been running for a year with no problem
My steering box is all the way forward and swinging flat instead of pitched up I made my own hysteer arms (d44) and I'm using the stock pitman arm
I can't comment on road manners as it never see's road time. I have been happy with my trucks trail manners though.
 
#17 ·
I run the 51" springs in the front. 6 leaf pack, 2" drop 1" forward hanger. custom perches on the diff allowing another 2" forward. I also went rear shackle hanger under the frame (frame was bent slightly from accident this saved having to straighten it) 4.5" shackles (hole to hole i think). I have maybe 3" of lift. I run 36" sx's with no rubbing but close. I have rancho 9012. 3-4" of shaft showing at ride height (bottoms out just as tre's touch spring) and use the full length of the shock. Steering box had to be relocated notched rad support and turned up.

Truck sits level with 4 leaf chevy's no blocks just the cut overload ,inboarded in the rear, with chevy lowering shackles mounted with the upper bolt going through the middle of the frame.

Trucks also got a light flatbed an exo cage (min. amount of tube)

Frame height is roughly 24" by the old tcase crossmember mounts on my 35" bfg all terrain street tires on 7" rims.

I think whizzy used to run the 51" with add aleafs all 4 corners
 
#18 ·
Thanks wilson, i'll have my truck pretty much done tomorrow. I'll take some pics of the steering under flex, i'm running my ifs rears up front with chevies in the back. It's actually funny doing my truck because the people in my class are all lowering their trucks and asking my why this and why that about mine.
 
#19 ·
Bringing this back up since I was thinking about it again today. The truck is no longer getting built. I'm building an '85 runner instead. I'll be using a FW D44 again ( actually the same axle as was in my first truck and buggy). Something that crossed my mind today regarding road manners was bump-steer. Have any of you running a frotn shackle setup noticed any on the highway? What about putting a panhard in, or am I overthingking it? In all likelyhood, the front will eventually be linked but for now, to get it wheeling it will be leaf sprung.
 
#20 ·
i think the advantages, are pretty clear, as are the disadvantages, i dont know about road manners but i just flipped mine so i can run without caster shims, get rid of the ridiculous pinion movement, and keep my 42s outta the fire wall plus i dont have to run the long slip anymore. Not to mention i will get made fun of alot:flipoff2:



 
#23 ·
My 87 is front shackle, my 90 is standard rear shackle, and while there is a difference, it's not that drastic. Very little bump steer (if any) on the 87. Running rear toys (48"). I've been seriously considering my decision to link the front, it work's pretty dam well right now. I'm definately going full hydro no matter what, but the suspension is still up in the air.
 
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