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An Ultimate Suspension Setup?

11K views 29 replies 22 participants last post by  ocho_vato 
#1 ·
I have been gathering info on a buildup of a 1st gen 4runner. My plans are: SAS (if its not a '85), 35-37" tires, dual cases, arb lockers f&r, 5.29's... the usual. I have been stuck on which suspension is the best for my application. The 4runner would be daily driven with weekend trips to the Rubicon, Hollister, and other Northern Sierra trails. Rockcrawling, trail riding and some mud. Which leaf springs are the best for my application? I have heard good things about rears up front and 44044's(waggy's I think). But what springs in the rear. Chevys are pretty long. What else is there. I do not really want to go around to different junkyards to make a crazy hybrid pack. I am on a somewhat tight budget but I would like to spend money on a good suspension setup. Is there an ultimate setup for flex while also being somewhat safe for the road? Help me! Post pics of your setups flexing and also the specs of your setup.
 
#3 ·
You're not going to have the "Ultimate" suspension unless you spend big $$$, and even then it depends on what you want to do. There's a reason the Chevy swap is so popular for the rear. It works! If you're dead set against Chevys because of their length (which won't matter unless you're bobbed so short in the rear that the shackles are the first thing that hits) then I've heard good things about F150 springs. You'll have to search to get good info. on those since I don't know much about them. I'm also surprised more people haven't been linking the rear ala BoogerWeldz. It would require some more work (i.e. relocation of gas tank), but seems pretty affordable. Of course, you could always just figure that rock crawling is never going to be an affordable sport and just cough up the bucks for Marlin, Deaver or Alcan springs. Personally, I'd go with rears up front and Chevys in the back. It's tried and true and there are huge FAQs on the board about both of them. Just my 2¢
 
#5 ·
rockota,

that is some pretty impressive front travel but as far as "ultimate suspension " it has some very obvious flaws. a well balnced suspension would have the passenger front hitting the bump stop at the same time the driver rear hits the bump, from looking at the pic it looks like the rear is not flexing at all. when you have a rig that one end does all the work as in your case it ends up haveing very odd and sometime dangerous handling characteristics.

my old rig was the oppisite of yours, the rear was linked and did all the work and it handled horrible.

so to answer the question. the "ultimate suspension setup" is going to be one that is designed to work well in all the conditions you use your rig in. that means having the proper spring rate, balancedl front and rear flex, proper bump stops, axle wrap control, provide the lift you require.

anyhow you can use this board to do the research to learn what is involved in building your own or you can buy proven setups that will perform the task from several of our vendors suchs as :

www.allprooffroad.com
or
www.marlincrawler.com
 
#7 ·
I'm not super impressed with the Marlin Crawler springs or the all pro's. They are pretty expensive and I have heard better things from cheap junk yard springs. I have not decided to NOT put chevy's in the rear but I have heard many stories about them being "rock anchors" and them not being that great because you have to use huge shackles or blocks. Plus I also heard they don't even flex that great. I have only heard these things so....How much are alcans with the orbit eyes for a 4runner? I have heard that they are really good. Whatever, I will keep researching and talking to people and figure something out.
 
#8 ·
Booger Weldz said:
cut an f250 spring pack in half and add 4 triangulated control arms in the rear

put 3 more leafs under a 48'' rear pack, without the overload, and put it up front
Is it hard to find these leaf springs and can I see some pics of them in action, flexing please. What is a triangulated control arm?
Thanks
-Pat
 
#9 ·
The orbit eye springs will run you $665 for the rear and $615 for the front from AOR.

If you want more flex and still keep the price down you can inboard the rear springs. Here is our very light Formula Toyota buggy flexing. Not much weight on the springs in this photo and flexing well...

 
#10 · (Edited)
red90runner said:
I'm not super impressed with the Marlin Crawler springs or the all pro's. They are pretty expensive and I have heard better things from cheap junk yard springs. How much are alcans with the orbit eyes for a 4runner? I have heard that they are really good.
If you are concerned about cost, forget about the orbit eyes... and be careful, AOR has had some customer service issues past, make sure they don't charge you for the parts until they ship! Search here and you will find some horror stories...

You can't have it both ways... awesome flex AND driveability on the road.

I have the AllPro springs, the fronts flex great, the rears are OK... overall a balanced setup that drives GREAT on the road and does really well off road. I would expect that the Marlin Crawler springs would be much the same...

For a rig that could be daily driven (mine isn't a DD, but it could be), this is some really nice flex (my Runner on Golden Crack, Golden Spike Trail, Moab). If you can get through Golden Crack without lifting a tire, I would call that great flex for a rig that is driven to the trails!

[edit]Uploaded a different pic that shows the passenger front tire at the bottom of the crack[/edit]
 

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#14 ·
camo said:
rockota,

that is some pretty impressive front travel but as far as "ultimate suspension " it has some very obvious flaws. a well balnced suspension would have the passenger front hitting the bump stop at the same time the driver rear hits the bump, from looking at the pic it looks like the rear is not flexing at all. when you have a rig that one end does all the work as in your case it ends up haveing very odd and sometime dangerous handling characteristics.

my old rig was the oppisite of yours, the rear was linked and did all the work and it handled horrible.
That's not my rig - it's from ORS's site. My rig doesn't wheel. :D The pics on ORS's site, as I understand them, are from the prototype front kit. But I otherwise do agree with what you are stating...

so to answer the question. the "ultimate suspension setup" is going to be one that is designed to work well in all the conditions you use your rig in. that means having the proper spring rate, balancedl front and rear flex, proper bump stops, axle wrap control, provide the lift you require.
Yup - well said.
 
#15 ·
TRD said:
Ultimate suspension = 4 link with coilovers and sway bars

Next best = Deaver leaf springs.

I agree 100%, sway bars are key. The ORS kit would work days better if he incorporated a sway bar into the front end. Some things I noticed earlier that I want to bring up are:

-Chevy's are not rock anchors, the hangers some people build for them are.

-You do not need to run blocks or crazy long shackles. The last Chevy spring swap I did ran no block and a 5.5" shackle. The front hanger was was a generic jeep hanger.

-The F150 is a good spring as well with the same long-side length as a chevy, but 7" shorter on the other side. It will flex the same as a chevy, assuming you mount the short side to the rear.

-If you want junk yard springs, Toy IFS rears with 3 extra leaves work and ride great with a good shock (check out the BBCS15) in the front and Chevy's or F150's are proven rear setups.

-If you're looking to spend good money for GOOD leaf springs, the Deaver's fully get it.

-Be prepared to spend good money on good shocks. A bad shock will make a good spring ride like crap. For the money the BBCS15 is the best performing shock I have used.
 
#16 ·
on the ORS set up those are brand new alcans that have never been wheeled on nor have settled yet. and it works perfect the front bump stop do hit when the rears hits. but one persons ultimate suspension is different from another persons ultimate suspension. and a lot of it does deal with what do you want to spend.
 
#18 ·
Wilson said:
-The F150 is a good spring as well with the same long-side length as a chevy, but 7" shorter on the other side. It will flex the same as a chevy, assuming you mount the short side to the rear.

Chevy's or F150's are proven rear setups.
What year F150's are best?

I've been trying to find out info for Ford rears, but haven't been able to. Can someone point me to a good thread about Ford rears (not chevy's)

The fords are the same width as toy's right?

Thanks
 
#19 ·
i went with chevy spring in the rear but they did not give me the lift i needed to clear the tires so i took them to the local spring shop and they arched them 3 inces and now they work great and still flex like crazy, i have about $150 in both springs (including the $ to arch them), which i thought was very reasonable
 
#21 ·
When did you have them arched? Start counting ... they're probably sagging right now :D

Original poster: You want the "ultimate" suspension, yet you have no budget and you want it to do everything well. Hmmmm. You can build a decent do-it-all-decently suspension with good shocks. I run the All Pro springs with RS9000s and it's OK. Good flex (particularly in the front, not so much in the rear), good street manners. The Deavers or Alcans would be better.
d
 
#22 · (Edited)
If you want a fully integrated system you can't go wrong with the Marlin setup. If you want to save some money, put the Chevy 63' s in the back and run Toy rears or 44044's (that's what I did), up front. Here is a video of my junk with the above setup, (you can turn off the sound if you don't want to listed to the annoying commentary). I also run a buggy leaf in the rear with a traction bar, and in this video it's got 9012's at both ends. But now I have BCCS15's in the rear, and will soon be mounting them "Pre-Runner" style, by piercing the flat bed, so they can be mounted straight up and down.
Video

Ulitmate Suspension? Properly desinged 3 or 4 link is the way to go. Like Camo said, front to rear balance is very important. If you watch the video you can see a point where I drop my front drivers tire into a hole, and it kinda' dives in. I'm anticipating that once I re-mount my rear shocks it should help with body roll like that.

My advice? Go Chevy's in the rear, Toys up front, get some 14" Bilstein 5100's (with Ford F250 mounts in front), and spend your money on the high steer, (don't skimp on steering!) Oh, and also spend some time setting up your bumpstops, (see the FAQ).

Good luck,

Doc
 
#23 ·
Roc Doc said:
.

My advice? Go Chevy's in the rear, Toys up front, get some 14" Bilstein 5100's (with Ford F250 mounts in front), and spend your money on the high steer, (don't skimp on steering!) Oh, and also spend some time setting up your bumpstops, (see the FAQ).

Good luck,

Doc
AGREED,,,I have mine set up this way and am super happy..And best of all cheap..Ulitmate,,no,,but its cheap and works very well..Thats hard to argue with..Sure it has flaws,,but on a full length runner I thinks its a great set up for the money....I did not have to run blocks or an over load and i did some tweeking to the spring clamps..
 
#24 · (Edited)
Why not just chop up your 90 and get to town.

With your request heres a ballpark figure for you.

1st gen 2000
arb's 2000
tires 900
gears 400
second case 300
adapter for case 400
skid plate 300
driveshafts 500
springs 2200 (ultimate setup option)
springs 350 (junkyard option high end)
steering 550


So your budget should be about 7k give or take with your requirements and that being everything but the 1st gen and junkyard springs being new. And you doing all of the labor work yourself.


Another option would be for you to just go to the for sale section and pick up someone elses rig that is for sale and go wheeling. I am sure you could find a complete rig in the 5k range with all of your requirements already done.
 
#25 ·
zgwninja said:
What year F150's are best?

I've been trying to find out info for Ford rears, but haven't been able to. Can someone point me to a good thread about Ford rears (not chevy's)

The fords are the same width as toy's right?

Thanks

The 3" wide version of the F150 spring can be found in mid 80's F150's and broncos, for sure. Look around there are several varieties of the spring regarding overload and the number of leafs in the pack. I use the springs with a curved bottom spring and a short overload (that I remove). I've been getting them from Bronco's. Take a tape with you, the 7" pin offset is the giveaway. If you want a 2.5" wide version of the F150 spring, look in the rear of early exploders. I have never run these springs because I figured the 3" version may be a little stronger.
 
#26 ·
HomeGrown said:
on the ORS set up those are brand new alcans that have never been wheeled on nor have settled yet. and it works perfect the front bump stop do hit when the rears hits. but one persons ultimate suspension is different from another persons ultimate suspension. and a lot of it does deal with what do you want to spend.

It was also mentioned in the original thread that it dives a bit in corners. The bottom line is that it would drive better and flex more evenly with a sway bar in the front. Don't get me wrong, it's a great setup but it will be incomplete (especially for DD use) until there is a sway bar included.
 
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