Winch solenoids and relays ? - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > Brand Specific Tech > Toyota - Truck and 4Runner
Notices

Reply
 
Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-10-2006, 06:52 AM   #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
JamisonWorkshop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4622
Location: Boonsboro, Maryland
Posts: 2,584
Winch solenoids and relays ?

I am hooking up my rear 1700 warn winch. Using 2 ford starter solenoids to seabasses panel switches. I am wondering if I need or should put a relay in between the solenoids and the switch itself, or if the solenoid alone is fine.
It is acting as the relay anyway isnt it?

It is fused either way. Just going to add up if I need 2 relays for the rear, and 2 for the front m8000 winch. in/out .

What do you think.
__________________
94 Toy Buggified, 94 FJ80, 02 Dodge CTD
Michael Jamison KGB 4Wheelers
JamisonWorkshop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 07:14 AM   #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Member # 62531
Location: sonorA,ca
Posts: 159
the ford starter soleniods are not 100% continuous duty. I tried them an had them fail under a minor winch load. Ordered the correct 100% duty soleniods online and have not had a problem since.

Last edited by sloth!; 01-10-2006 at 07:14 AM.
sloth! is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 01-10-2006, 07:14 AM   #3 (permalink)
Rock God
 
Kajo4x4toy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Member # 2537
Location: Williamsport, PA
Posts: 1,917
I am not sure about the 1700 but on my incab winch setup for my M8000, I did not use any relays at all. I ran 6/14 trailer wire from the solenoid pack to the switches. I am guessing you could do the same for the rear winch.

I used 16 gauge wiring on my old Black 4Runner's in-cab winch control and never had any issues.
__________________
Kajo

4Runner build version 3.0


RightCoast4X4

SFC, US Army (Retired)
Cancer Survivor since 01/2002
Kajo4x4toy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 07:31 AM   #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
JamisonWorkshop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4622
Location: Boonsboro, Maryland
Posts: 2,584
Cool. I did the front the same. One wire for in and one for out. So I will just do that. Will see how the solenoids work. It is only for sucking down the suspension so it will only be intermittent anyway. For $16 worth of solenoids. I dont mind having to upgrade later.

John that 93 pdf thing you sent me may just be all I need. Just like my truck and it spells alot out. The rear is done, and I got the front stuff done last night. Just have to get it all to meet in the middle now.
__________________
94 Toy Buggified, 94 FJ80, 02 Dodge CTD
Michael Jamison KGB 4Wheelers
JamisonWorkshop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 07:48 AM   #5 (permalink)
Rock God
 
Kajo4x4toy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Member # 2537
Location: Williamsport, PA
Posts: 1,917
That is good to here. I will try to get the other files sendable in case you need them.
__________________
Kajo

4Runner build version 3.0


RightCoast4X4

SFC, US Army (Retired)
Cancer Survivor since 01/2002
Kajo4x4toy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 09:11 AM   #6 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
4CrawlR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4716
Location: Santa Clara, CA.
Posts: 4,163
How many solenoids you need will depend on how the winch is wired. My Warn 9000 uses 4 solenoids since it switches polarity to the winch motor. Solenoids are arranged in a diamond configuration, 12V to the top, Ground to the bottom and the winch motor across the center. Turn on one top solenoid and the opposite bottom one and you get one polarity at the motor and turn on the other two solenoids and you get the opposite polarity (and reverse motor operation).

If the winch has a common ground and two + terminals for each direction, then 2 solenoids would be sufficient.
4CrawlR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 09:49 AM   #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
JamisonWorkshop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4622
Location: Boonsboro, Maryland
Posts: 2,584
The front M8000 I went by seabass's diagram he sent me. 2 wires, one to the green and one to the black. I did split them so they actually go to 2 solenoids each. 1 wire in going to 2 green wires. one wire in going to 2 black wires on the solenoids. I believe he said your winch would be the 3 wire style and M8000 is 2 wire style.

The rear 1700 winch only has 2 wires coming off of it. pos. and neg. You have to switch back and forth for in and out. Will it still work with just the 2 starter solenoids? It does not have its own pack for it.

One solenoid is going to be powered with the switch on (in). When it is switched to (out) the other solenoid is powered right.

I dont see where the ground is though. Is it Just the little ground on the switch? Instead of the large 4 gauge ground off of the winch like factory.
__________________
94 Toy Buggified, 94 FJ80, 02 Dodge CTD
Michael Jamison KGB 4Wheelers

Last edited by JamisonWorkshop; 01-10-2006 at 09:51 AM.
JamisonWorkshop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 10:19 AM   #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
JamisonWorkshop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4622
Location: Boonsboro, Maryland
Posts: 2,584
here is a pic of proposed rear wiring. Anything wrong with it.
Attached Images
 
__________________
94 Toy Buggified, 94 FJ80, 02 Dodge CTD
Michael Jamison KGB 4Wheelers
JamisonWorkshop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 10:37 AM   #9 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
4CrawlR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4716
Location: Santa Clara, CA.
Posts: 4,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamisonWorkshop

The rear 1700 winch only has 2 wires coming off of it. pos. and neg. You have to switch back and forth for in and out. Will it still work with just the 2 starter solenoids? It does not have its own pack for it.

One solenoid is going to be powered with the switch on (in). When it is switched to (out) the other solenoid is powered right.

I dont see where the ground is though. Is it Just the little ground on the switch? Instead of the large 4 gauge ground off of the winch like factory.
Looks like the motor is "floating", like my 9000 winch. To make the motor run one way, you hook the top terminal to 12V and the bottom to ground. To make it run backwards, ou hook the top to ground and the bottom to 12V. Imagine holding a set of jumper cables, hook the up one way and the motor runs forward, cross them over and the motor runs backwards. You'll need 4 solenoids (assuming SPST) to make the necessary connections.

4CrawlR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 10:48 AM   #10 (permalink)
Rock God
 
Haggar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Member # 11570
Location: Lake Orion, MI
Posts: 2,041
Hmm,

I'm not sure that'll work.

My understanding is the small rear winch has just the + and - motor leads, and one is hooked to each solenoid.

*IF* the solenoids were providing ground to the motor leads in the off state, then it would work. I don't know what those particular solenoids are doing. I assume they are just open contacts when not energized.

With a standard dc motor, you need an H-bridge configuration to control the motor in 2 directions.

I'm sure you can google some diagrams of H-bridges, but I'll try to draw a pic:

.Battery
......|
......|
------------
|..............|
SW1.......SW2
|..............|
---Motor---
|..............|
SW3......SW4
|..............|
------------
........|
.....Ground

To go in one direction, you need to turn on close SW1 and SW4. To go in the other direction, close SW2 and SW3.


Basically, you'd have two more solenoids just like you drew, but to apply ground to the winch terminals as well. So each terminal on the winch has two solenoids connected to it: One to ground, one to battery.

Last edited by Haggar; 01-10-2006 at 10:50 AM.
Haggar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 10:57 AM   #11 (permalink)
Rock God
 
Haggar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Member # 11570
Location: Lake Orion, MI
Posts: 2,041
Ah, Roger beat me to it.

The way we posted is what you'd need to do. Ideally, finding some large relays that are DPDT (dual pole dual throw) that can handle the current, which I don't think really exist. Even SPDT relays above 100 amps aren't real common.

My last job was designing electronic conrtols for various automotive motors(windowlifts, radiator fans, electric power steering, etc)... my last project was a 42 volt, 80 amp DC brushless motor. Had a hell of a time finding good relays to use as continuous duty switches.


Could research the parts used in Fork Lifts, they have some high amperage parts. But probably just going with 4 solenoids is easiest.

You'd just connect them in opposite pairs. So the switch wire to the solenoid SW 1 also turns on solenoid SW 4, as referenced in my drawing..
Haggar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 11:02 AM   #12 (permalink)
Registered User
 
JamisonWorkshop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4622
Location: Boonsboro, Maryland
Posts: 2,584
you both are correct in the type and function of the winch.

It is a SPDT switch, not sure if that changes anything.
Hate to have to get 2 more solenoids.

Always got to be a pain in the butt.
__________________
94 Toy Buggified, 94 FJ80, 02 Dodge CTD
Michael Jamison KGB 4Wheelers
JamisonWorkshop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 11:12 AM   #13 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
4CrawlR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4716
Location: Santa Clara, CA.
Posts: 4,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamisonWorkshop
you both are correct in the type and function of the winch.

It is a SPDT switch, not sure if that changes anything.
Hate to have to get 2 more solenoids.

Always got to be a pain in the butt.
If the solenoids are SPDT, then they have a normally closed (NC) contact and a normally open (NO) contact. Unless they have a center-off mode, that will not help. Why? Because the winch motor will always be running one way or the other. Solenoids on and it runs one way, solenoids off and it runs the other way because when the solenoids are off, the NC contacts are closed and thus whatever is hooked to the NC contacts will be getting power. Suppose you could get by with a 3rd solenoid to turn power to the other two solenoids when you don't want them running, but the 4 solenoid setup is probabably the best option.
4CrawlR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 11:17 AM   #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
JamisonWorkshop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4622
Location: Boonsboro, Maryland
Posts: 2,584
I was actually reffering to the switch on the dash is SPDT.
Solenoids No idea. just power/motor and control. They have the other side that is supposed to be coil hookup?

I guess I will start thinking about the 4 solenoid setup. Or just get by with the stock cheesy switch they give you for now. If I am going to end up spending $50 on solenoids. I myswell buy Warns remote add on kit for $100 and be done with it.

I know the setup you all are reffering to is just the m8000 solenoid pack. Like I said myswell just buy Warns and be done with it.
__________________
94 Toy Buggified, 94 FJ80, 02 Dodge CTD
Michael Jamison KGB 4Wheelers

Last edited by JamisonWorkshop; 01-10-2006 at 11:18 AM.
JamisonWorkshop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 11:28 AM   #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
JamisonWorkshop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4622
Location: Boonsboro, Maryland
Posts: 2,584
And I guess there is no possible easy way to actually use the solenoid pack on the front to control the 2 winches completly seperatly huh.

I hate wires.
__________________
94 Toy Buggified, 94 FJ80, 02 Dodge CTD
Michael Jamison KGB 4Wheelers
JamisonWorkshop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 01:14 PM   #16 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
4CrawlR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4716
Location: Santa Clara, CA.
Posts: 4,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamisonWorkshop
And I guess there is no possible easy way to actually use the solenoid pack on the front to control the 2 winches completly seperatly huh.

I hate wires.
You could make a quick disconnect cable and then control one winch or the other depending on which one was plugged in. With the solenoid, they are usually just one big contact that is open with power off and closed when power on. You basically need 4 to totally control a motor, two to supply power to either side of the motor and 2 to supply ground.
4CrawlR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 01:20 PM   #17 (permalink)
Rock God
 
Haggar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Member # 11570
Location: Lake Orion, MI
Posts: 2,041
I like wires, they pay my bills. although these days, I'm not doing motor control anymore. Designing instrument clusters..


Out of curiosity, whats the current rating for this winch?
Haggar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 01:28 PM   #18 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
4CrawlR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4716
Location: Santa Clara, CA.
Posts: 4,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamisonWorkshop
And I guess there is no possible easy way to actually use the solenoid pack on the front to control the 2 winches completly seperatly huh.

I hate wires.
You could make a quick disconnect cable and then control one winch or the other depending on which one was plugged in. With the solenoid, they are usually just one big contact that is open with power off and closed when power on. You basically need 4 to totally control a motor, two to supply power to either side of the motor and 2 to supply ground.
4CrawlR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 01:37 PM   #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
SeaBass44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Member # 40
Location: 80 miles n-sac in Oroville, CA
Posts: 24,246
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamisonWorkshop
here is a pic of proposed rear wiring. Anything wrong with it.

give me an email
you should be fine with that as long as you wire up a dpdt switch as a reversing switch, I'll email you the directions for that
I never recommend intermittent ford solenoids, but for a winch to up/down your suspension, you should be more then fine, on other applications, they can weld themselves, & if they do in the in position, could be bad, very bad
__________________
[URL="http://www.12voltguy.com/"]12voltguy[/URL]
[EMAIL=info@12voltguy.com]info@12voltguy.com[/EMAIL][COLOR=Red]--[URL="http://www.davezoffroadperformance.com/"]davezoffroadperformance.com[/URL]
:evil: # 530.532.4529:evil:[/COLOR]
TTC 2010 1989 BRONCO
:evil:-[COLOR="Red"]Awesome web development for your business[/COLOR]. [url]www.mudnworks.com[/url] [email]mud@mudnworks.com[/email]
[URL="http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=654231"]Pat's W I D E TOYOTA Front Axle[/URL]
--"07 RoadStar 1700-4sale"
SeaBass44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2006, 05:35 AM   #20 (permalink)
Registered User
 
JamisonWorkshop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4622
Location: Boonsboro, Maryland
Posts: 2,584
Thanks Seabass got your email. This reversing switch you show. That is just the in/out switch I already have is it not? Or an additional switch.

Looks simple enough. I assume this will be fine for the winch loads as well.

The winch shows like 250 amps at full load. It shouldnt see alot of stress or use.

I also assume that out to motor on the diagram is actually to the 2 solenoids and then to the motor?
__________________
94 Toy Buggified, 94 FJ80, 02 Dodge CTD
Michael Jamison KGB 4Wheelers

Last edited by JamisonWorkshop; 01-11-2006 at 05:40 AM.
JamisonWorkshop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 10:49 AM   #21 (permalink)
Registered User
 
JamisonWorkshop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Member # 4622
Location: Boonsboro, Maryland
Posts: 2,584
So people know I tried Seabasses way and it does not work. It will energize the solenoid yes, but it grounds the switch not the winch. I am sure you could run the ground from switch to the winch and then ya it would do it.

But I do not feel compfortable running a 16ga. wire from a 20a switch to a 2ga winch feed. I got 2 more solenoids today and will be hooking them up in the H bridge configuration and all should be well.
__________________
94 Toy Buggified, 94 FJ80, 02 Dodge CTD
Michael Jamison KGB 4Wheelers
JamisonWorkshop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 10:57 AM   #22 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Member # 8203
Location: West Milford NJ
Posts: 1,740
go to the ramsey winch web site.
click literature, then to manuals, then to parts lists.

the exploded diagram of the winch solenoid pack clearly shows how to wire up the winch with a 2 solenoids.

this is what I did with my winch, and I sued one of Seabass's dash-mount winch controllers.
if you want to be fancy about it, buy the wireless controller for a ramsey winch.

you can wire the winch either as a ramsey or a warn, the motor doesn't care, but the controller will, and ramseys uses one less of the $$ relays.
__________________
super cool turbo 4runner
Sundowner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 12:29 PM   #23 (permalink)
Registered User
 
SeaBass44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Member # 40
Location: 80 miles n-sac in Oroville, CA
Posts: 24,246



you are only running like 1amp or less through a switch to turn on relay
__________________
[URL="http://www.12voltguy.com/"]12voltguy[/URL]
[EMAIL=info@12voltguy.com]info@12voltguy.com[/EMAIL][COLOR=Red]--[URL="http://www.davezoffroadperformance.com/"]davezoffroadperformance.com[/URL]
:evil: # 530.532.4529:evil:[/COLOR]
TTC 2010 1989 BRONCO
:evil:-[COLOR="Red"]Awesome web development for your business[/COLOR]. [url]www.mudnworks.com[/url] [email]mud@mudnworks.com[/email]
[URL="http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=654231"]Pat's W I D E TOYOTA Front Axle[/URL]
--"07 RoadStar 1700-4sale"
SeaBass44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 12:29 PM   #24 (permalink)
Registered User
 
SeaBass44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Member # 40
Location: 80 miles n-sac in Oroville, CA
Posts: 24,246
__________________
[URL="http://www.12voltguy.com/"]12voltguy[/URL]
[EMAIL=info@12voltguy.com]info@12voltguy.com[/EMAIL][COLOR=Red]--[URL="http://www.davezoffroadperformance.com/"]davezoffroadperformance.com[/URL]
:evil: # 530.532.4529:evil:[/COLOR]
TTC 2010 1989 BRONCO
:evil:-[COLOR="Red"]Awesome web development for your business[/COLOR]. [url]www.mudnworks.com[/url] [email]mud@mudnworks.com[/email]
[URL="http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=654231"]Pat's W I D E TOYOTA Front Axle[/URL]
--"07 RoadStar 1700-4sale"
SeaBass44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 12:30 PM   #25 (permalink)
Registered User
 
SeaBass44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Member # 40
Location: 80 miles n-sac in Oroville, CA
Posts: 24,246
__________________
[URL="http://www.12voltguy.com/"]12voltguy[/URL]
[EMAIL=info@12voltguy.com]info@12voltguy.com[/EMAIL][COLOR=Red]--[URL="http://www.davezoffroadperformance.com/"]davezoffroadperformance.com[/URL]
:evil: # 530.532.4529:evil:[/COLOR]
TTC 2010 1989 BRONCO
:evil:-[COLOR="Red"]Awesome web development for your business[/COLOR]. [url]www.mudnworks.com[/url] [email]mud@mudnworks.com[/email]
[URL="http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=654231"]Pat's W I D E TOYOTA Front Axle[/URL]
--"07 RoadStar 1700-4sale"
SeaBass44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply





Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.