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Old 10-08-2006, 12:51 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Unhappy 22RE ARP head studs causing oil starvation?

I removed the rocker assembly from my 22RE today in an effort to replace what I thought was a defective rocker arm. As it turns out, all of the rockers are showing various degrees of distress. The shoes which ride on the cam are all showing heavy wear despite the fact that the engine only has 90 miles on it. The cam lobes are heavily worn as well to the point that the cam is no longer servicable. My first guess is that this is the result of a severe lubrication failure. But I have good oil pressure and there is plenty of oil pooled on top of the head. This leads me to believe that the rocker shafts themselves are not getting oil for some reason.

The history of the engine is that it got a full rebuild including a new Proline cylinder head from engnbldr, oil pump, rocker shaft, rockers, cam, and ARP head studs. The lobes were coated with the grease that came with the cam and GM's EOS was added to the oil as specified by the cam installation instructions. The cam was broken in per the instructions as well.

What looks like might be the problem is the clearance between the ARP head studs and bolt holes in the Proline cylinder head. It looks like the 22RE passes oil along the side of the head bolts into the pillow blocks that support the rocker shafts. The ARP studs have a larger shank than the OEM head bolts and fit rather slugly in these holes (only a few thousands clearance) which leads me to believe that the studs are preventing the rocker assembly from getting full lubrication.

I know that ARP studs and the Proline heads are a fairly common upgrade to the 22RE which is why I'm confused about why this happened. Any thoughts?
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Old 10-08-2006, 04:47 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Did you replace the phillips screws that hold the pillow blocks and the rocker rails together? The factory ones are just long enough not to protrude into the oil passages.
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Old 10-08-2006, 05:43 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I used the factory screws. That's not the problem. I wish it was that easy.

It looks like the oil comes up thru the 1st, 3rd, and 5th pillow block on the driver's side. But as I mentioned, the ARP bolts don't leave much room for oil flow. I can't imagine that I'm the only one that's run into this given the popularity of the ARP bolts.
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Old 10-08-2006, 05:51 PM   #4 (permalink)
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May or not help. They deal with this stuff all the time in the racing world.
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Old 02-17-2007, 01:43 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I'm chasing this issue also.. anyone got any ideas?
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Old 02-18-2007, 08:33 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I'm chasing this issue also.. anyone got any ideas?
Ran into this issue. APR studs aren't shanked like OEM bolts. Had a few ARP studs cut down, and re heat treated for this. Goerge Logan was the ginnea for the end results, which were positive. G.L was dealing with the same issues as DCG. Put an OEM bolt in the front feed position, see if it resolves the problem.
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Old 02-18-2007, 08:45 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Or bore out the front hole and keep the stud there. Which is probly better due to the clamping forces involved.
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Old 02-18-2007, 09:40 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by InternetRoadkill View Post

I know that ARP studs and the Proline heads are a fairly common upgrade to the 22RE which is why I'm confused about why this happened. Any thoughts?

uh oh. that is the same set up i just did.
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Old 02-18-2007, 09:51 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Ran into this issue. APR studs aren't shanked like OEM bolts. Had a few ARP studs cut down, and re heat treated for this. Goerge Logan was the ginnea for the end results, which were positive. G.L was dealing with the same issues as DCG. Put an OEM bolt in the front feed position, see if it resolves the problem.
I think ARP should be made aware of this problem.
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Old 02-18-2007, 10:08 AM   #10 (permalink)
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made aware and responsible too.
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Old 02-18-2007, 11:01 AM   #11 (permalink)
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What are you guys torquing your studs to? ARP says 80 with their moly lube, and 120 with oil or thread sealer. 120 seems like it might be good for the HG, but with a stock spec of 58(?) will it hold?

Did all of you use the supplied moly lube when you installed you studs?
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Old 02-18-2007, 11:04 AM   #12 (permalink)
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What are you guys torquing your studs to? ARP says 80 with their moly lube, and 120 with oil or thread sealer. 120 seems like it might be good for the HG, but with a stock spec of 58(?) will it hold?

Did all of you use the supplied moly lube when you installed you studs?

i used their included lube and followed their instructions exactly.
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Old 02-18-2007, 12:10 PM   #13 (permalink)
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made aware and responsible too.
That's not how it works Merace. When you install a part, you are determining the correctness of the application. It's called accountability for your actions. I know that reads as a shit head remark by me, but I assure you that's not the intent. The point is if it's that cut-n-dry, stay away from mods. it can often be hit-n-miss. You have to be ready to explore when it's the latter, not blame. Now, onto the oiling issue. Check the bore on the front 2 bolt holes on the T.L. casting DCG. I'd be curious if it is less than OEM. ARP lube allows a wet torque, at a set amount, which yields a determined end clamping force sans dry stresses. I personally set the end torque on the TrailGear engine @ 95lb. wet using ARP lube. It was using a MLS Cometic, and an abrasive faced head deck surface. Block deck RA, and head deck facing is a factor. Darin, there's got to be something "whack" going on.
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Old 02-18-2007, 12:37 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merace19 View Post
made aware and responsible too.

I think Tim's right, if I install it, I'm responsible for the attention to detail required to make sure it's right. It hard for a manufacturer to be responsible for all present and future differences in castings... Course, a "check this" would be helpful to prevent common idiotisms, but I don't think this is a common problem.

I've used ARP hardware in two other motors with no problems at all. If you search the web, pirate, yotatech, wherever - you don't see common posts about oiling issues with ARP failure. I'm using ARPs because I'm doing things that the motor really wasn't designed for.... Problems I'm running into are unfortunate, but I'm not throwing rocks at parts suppliers or providers.

For those of you choosing a vendor to deal with - Tim has been great and fully supportive through this. And before I hear the "what's the inside discount" question - there is no discount and the prices I've paid are on my website.

My head:
I'm doing a few things differently from OEM:
1) ARP studs.
2) I'm running a turbo, which does take a volume of oil through a 4AN line.. I don't think this is an issue at all, but I thought I'd mention it.
3) My head casting is TopLine.
4) I have higher than stock valve spring pressures.
5) Non-stock camshaft, of course.

I'm going to take Tim's advice and swap in a stock bolt to the #1 passenger side instead of using a stud. Spring pressures have also been changed. We'll see what happens.

I torque to 80 ft/lbs using the lube provide with the studs.
I told my machinist I needed an RA of at least 50, I never got a straight answer back, but he says the finish on my block is sufficient for alcohol dragsters and associated metal gaskets. I've had no issues with the MLS gasket from DOA.
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Old 02-18-2007, 01:07 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Photos:

Shank size differences, ARP vs OEM. Notice the decrease in shank on the OEM bolt:

http://lakebox.dnsalias.com/photos/1...d/arpvsoem.JPG

There is definitely a decrease in hole size on the casting vs the size on the rocker tower... Hard to see in the photo, but if the ARPs are .75-1mm larger shanks than OEM bolts (depending on which OEM bolt you measure) that's already a potential reduction in flow right there.

I can't accurately measure the head bolt hole diameter in the TL casting... Anyone want to check and OEM casting?

Sorry for the crappy photo - this is the best I can do:

http://lakebox.dnsalias.com/photos/1...adbolthole.jpg
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Old 02-18-2007, 03:14 PM   #16 (permalink)
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When you install a part, you are determining the correctness of the application. It's called accountability for your actions.
If arp sells the KIT for the studs and its labeled 22r application then its up to there R&D team to make damn sure it will work. I understand if i make a modification to there part or use it not as intended.

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Old 02-18-2007, 03:21 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I am not about to get into a pissing contest over this but when one makes self explored mods to anything they assume responsibility. But when one buys a product from a seller of goods that has made a representations of the product then they must stand behind it.
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Old 02-18-2007, 03:56 PM   #18 (permalink)
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If arp sells the KIT for the studs and its labeled 22r application then its up to there R&D team to make damn sure it will work. I understand if i make a modification to there part or use it not as intended.
What if another manufacturer comes out with a new head casting that is .05 more narrow (made up number) than OEM ? I've found that the ARP hardware is going to be .75-1mm larger than an OEM bolt. Is ARP responsible for testing with every single possible head castings across the full range of variations within those heads? It certainly would be possible to impact oil flow with some small changes.

The more I learn about this stuff, the happier I get that I'm not in this business... Way too many variables.
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Old 02-18-2007, 04:05 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Good point. yeah variables in this case could be wide. I was working under the assumption that the heads involved are stock Toyota casings. I cannt remember does toy have a locating dowel? If so then ARP does not need to make the studs to the hole size. Ford 2.3 has these I know and i have used ARP on them forever. Love there product but I have never read the instructions for installing the studs into a 22r. It should have in them a notice to check the stud hole clearance on the oil galleys. I am not a motor guy by no means and I am not 100 percent sure this is the issue.
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Old 02-18-2007, 04:21 PM   #20 (permalink)
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>>>*Maybe I am confused by some of the comments, but the head bolt holes can't be a problem. After all, the threads are the same size on the studs as they are on the bolts and they do have to fit through there...???

If there is a restriction at that point, it would have to be in the stud or the bolt shank O/D. At this point, I have never seen that, although I have seen shafts inverted, and #2/#3 towers reversed blocking oil flow. I have even dug debris, silicone, etc out of the tower passages, we always flow check them before installing.

Just my opinion, but I doubt head bolt hole diameter is the concern here. ....*EB
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Old 02-18-2007, 04:36 PM   #21 (permalink)
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The threads on the studs and the bolts are all the same size.
The shank on the ARP hardware and the shank on the OEM bolts are different sizes (O/D). The ARPs are larger by .75-1mm. The OEM bolts have step in the shank.
That's going to reduce oil flow somewhat. Is that causing a failure? Not sure.

Ted, how do you flow test them? I've been through more than one rocker assembly, just to be sure - so I don't think it's a blockage in the assembly. The only way I know to test the assembly is to pull the plugs and crank it over until I get about 20psi of oil pressure, make sure that the rockers are flowing oil.

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Old 02-18-2007, 04:51 PM   #22 (permalink)
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>>>*Maybe I am confused by some of the comments, but the head bolt holes can't be a problem. After all, the threads are the same size on the studs as they are on the bolts and they do have to fit through there...???EB
Not the blind block deck holes Ted, the holes in the head that the bolt passes through. The front bolt shares the oil feed passage to the rockers. Look at the head gasket, you'll see the transfer port, same on the underside of the head. Looks somewhat triangulated on the gasket..........
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Old 02-18-2007, 04:53 PM   #23 (permalink)
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>>>*We use a pressure oil feeder, think of a brake system bleeder tool. WE just invert the assembly, fill it up and hit the air.

We clean them in the solvent tank the same way, sliding the rocker arms aside you can see liquid pour out the opposite side. It comes out the bottom, too, all over the place but we can tell quickly if something is blocking, like in that #3 tower, or the like. The tower can be tested by blowing air from the side that has the access hole.

That gets overlooked a lot, it always amazes me the stuff that comes out of there.

*Yea, I know, the towers and the rockers move all over the place and the towers leak out the top, I just set up and drilled a piece of 2 X 6, stick some old bolts in to keep them aligned so oil goes where it's supposed to. Kinda crude but it works....*EB
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Old 02-18-2007, 04:59 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I am not about to get into a pissing contest over this but when one makes self explored mods to anything they assume responsibility. But when one buys a product from a seller of goods that has made a representations of the product then they must stand behind it.
No piss going on here Merace. The stud kit for the R series isn't the problem, it didn't fail, and it performed its tasks intended. The point I'm making is that "events" can arise that complicate, builders that experience them over time learn that this is the case. Variables come in spades, and a source cannot always cover every "could happen if." Picture a 2.3 camshaft with a swapped 1&4 firing order. If the builder/end user, doesnt make the plug wire swap to accomadate the mod, is it the cam sources fault? The builder/end user MUST have an idea in modified circumstances. You know as well as I do, in the world of high performance, sources are going to assume the installer is up to the task.
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Old 02-18-2007, 05:09 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Point taken. But at some point the TRUST of the manufactor to have seen this and have a ready fix for it. 22r/e are new to me but making crazy power out of a 4 banger is not. I am going to set back onthis one and see if a solution can be found before I tear into my 22r.


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