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Old 04-30-2007, 02:13 PM   #1 (permalink)
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22re with MSD ignition

have an 86 22re and purchased an MSD ignition and coil but it isn't a vacume advance distributor. is there a way i can get away with using the one i have?
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Old 04-30-2007, 02:24 PM   #2 (permalink)
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1) Buy a red star and search pirate.
2) Don't buy a red star and search pirate via using the Google advanced search interface. Specify pirate4x4 as the website to search.
3) Read the MSD directions. Make sure you clip the appropriate wire for 4 cylinder operation and you're going to install it as a generic import setup with an ignitor/amplifier.
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Old 04-30-2007, 06:31 PM   #3 (permalink)
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and that will auto-advance my timing? i was thinking about getting a distributor out of a 22r with the vacume module.
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Old 04-30-2007, 07:21 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerline-k9 View Post
and that will auto-advance my timing? i was thinking about getting a distributor out of a 22r with the vacume module.
Ugh-huh, it'll also increase downforce on the rear wheels. Helps you pull mad Gs in the corners.


Might want to go back and read the fundamentals of what the MSD is designed to do. If you want additional advance on your timing, try adding a few degrees to your base timing or pay $500 for the POS "JET" chip for the 22RE.

Adding a mechanical advance distributor to an ECU controlled advance system is going to cause some degree of additional advance... Probably a whole lot of extra advance... Like way too much, but that's my theory - I'm not willing to test it.
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Old 05-01-2007, 02:36 PM   #5 (permalink)
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i know exactly what a multiple spark discharge ignition system does. i'm not looking for an aditional advance in my timing. just factory would be nice. i've instaled an MSDS in a carbureted toyota before. but it didn't have an electronicaly controled timing advance ei:vacume advanced. what i was saying is if i used a distibutor out of an older 22r in my 22re it should have the same timing curve. am i correct?
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:43 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I think what DCG is telling you is that you should not use a vacuum advance dist on an EFI equipped engine. The ECU takes care of the advance and retard.

It makes no sense to try a carb dist on an EFI equipped truck, none.

Figure out where to set the static timing, whether it be at the spec or something more, and then let the computer do it's job. The computer will do a much better job at advancing and retarding the timing properly.

The MSD will not make a difference you will notice other than when off-road at low rpm's. The only thing I noticed was it was a bit harder to stall the engine.
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:55 PM   #7 (permalink)
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The only thing I noticed was it was a bit harder to stall the engine.
holy shit!!!!! Do I need that. Even with the dual cases I still felt like a 12 year old whole stole dads truck the first time I wheeled my runner. Quiet a difference from a small block and 90 to 1 crawl ratio.
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Old 05-01-2007, 04:34 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I bet! Unless you get a killer deal on an MSD, don't waste your money on a new one. Don't pay more than $50 for a used one.

Then run 1 range colder plug, and go up to a .045 gap. You will notice a little difference overall, but not much.

Like I said, it helps at low r's because that's where it does multiple spark at, 3k and below. Above 3 k, it's just a hotter spark I think. Maybe someone has some real MSD smarts will chime in.
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Old 05-01-2007, 09:21 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I dunno if I have real MSD smarts, but I'm feeling less cranky today.

Steve is right:
1) The 22RE timing is controlled by the ECU. It has a timing curve that's dictated by RPM, air flow, and can be impacted by knock being detected at the knock sensor. The ECU "assumes" a base timing with the proper jumpers, so if you offset your base timing, you impact the entire timing curve - just like on a mechanical distributor.

At peak advance (based on my tuning) you can see up 28-32 degrees of total advance. Let's assume the ECU tunes about the same and the mechanical distributor has a similar curve. If you use a mechanical distributor AND let the ECU continue to advance, you could possibly double your advance.. waaay too much..

If you want more advance:
1) Advance your base timing a few degrees. You can dial in enough to cause pinging.
2) Want a more advanced curve w/o changing baseline advance you can do two things: A DUI mechnical distributor (~$400) or a JET chip (~$500).

I've run the MSD on a 22R.. didn't notice much difference either, but as mentioned above, it's multiple sparks at lower RPM. I like the MSD 6AL due to the RPM limiter.

Hotter spark? Really not sure.. I wouldn't think so as it still has to trigger the stock coil.. If it's a hotter spark, it's just providing a better ground or more current to that coil.
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Old 05-02-2007, 06:57 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I should have mentioned i run an old school Jacobs Coil from before they got bought out by the POS Corp Rostra. The Old Jacobs Stuff from the late 80's early 90's was very good stuff.
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Last edited by steveh; 05-02-2007 at 06:57 AM.
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Old 05-02-2007, 07:39 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Not familiar with the MSD... WHICH (model numbers) do you have?

AFAIK - you can run the MSD but you have to interface it with the OEM ignighter (the small black box on top of the coil).

The EFI will handle the advance. If you want - advance the base timing a smidge and let the knock sensor pull it back.

AFAIK the knock sensor / EFI unfortunatley is a rather crude dial back - I DONT think it pulls the timing back in steps - it takes a chunk of timing out.

More modern EFI (aka not a Toyota copy of late 70s era Bosch LJetronic) will pull timing back in phased steps...


IMHO - coil helps, the Jacobs doesnt do much but look cool under the hood...

BTW - I have new in box 22RE Jacobs box... PM me
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Old 05-02-2007, 08:07 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I have a 6a. Install info is in the FAQ
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Old 05-02-2007, 08:38 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I've run the 6a and 6al on a carb'd 22R and a supercharged 22R (starting carb and went to EFI). I didn't notice much of a difference. Both motors were good running motors and I made several changes at once, so it's hard to differentiate. The 6al has a rev limiter, which did prove itself useful.

I'm running a slightly hotter coil and stock ignitor on a turbo 22re, mainly because I wanted to prove that I could do stand alone fuel injection with stock wiring. My current opinion is that I'm not going to do an MSD ignition system because it doesn't provide a better spark where I need it - under boost and at mid+ RPM.

I should note that I've had issues with spark blow out above 10psi. I'm trying to solve them with a set of colder plugs that are gapped a bit smaller. If I can't solve this issue, I will eventually drive the MSD unit directly (w/o ignitor) and use a big coil - no ignitor at all.


Bottom line: go to a slightly larger coil, not huge, as huge may be impacted by current limitations in the ignitor. The MSD unit may help at low RPM, but it's hard to prove on a dyno with an engine that puts out about 90 rwhp.

Carb'd setups could be drive an MSD system and big coil w/o using the ignitor. There is also a thread about doing GM ignition around here somewhere.
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Old 05-02-2007, 02:17 PM   #14 (permalink)
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i guess all i was asking is, with the MSD set up you pretty much bypass all the factory ignition hardware. so how does the ecu advance the timing.

it's the water proof offroad msd with a stand alone rev control and a blaster ss coil. i pulled it out of my old 22r truck
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Old 05-02-2007, 02:47 PM   #15 (permalink)
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It does not bypass the factory hardware, it works with it. So there is no effect on how the ECU controls the advance. Who told you it bypassed the ECU?
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Old 05-02-2007, 06:26 PM   #16 (permalink)
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the only thing it works with is a 12v ignition switch. the factory ignition is advanced by the ecu with the igniter box. i fully understand how the entire ignition system work aside from the individual resistor/capasitors/diods.

in the middle of me writing this my father had called toyota and MSD. the only way to properly achieve a factory timing curve is to use a vacume advanced distributor. other wise you won't have any advance in your timing during higher rpms. either that or MSD can custom build and ignition with your desired timing curve built in for and ungodly amount of money.

thanx to everyone who tried to help. i might not have been very clear in my initial question. i was hoping it would be a quick answer but in the end i got what i needed.
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Old 05-02-2007, 07:20 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Well, you guys are wrong, the igniter triggers the msd, and the igniter is controlled by the ecu. Read the FAQ, and look at the schematic.
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Old 05-02-2007, 10:36 PM   #18 (permalink)
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the only thing it works with is a 12v ignition switch. the factory ignition is advanced by the ecu with the igniter box. i fully understand how the entire ignition system work aside from the individual resistor/capasitors/diods.
Actually the ignitor triggers the MSD via the adapter MSD sells (part #8910HEI). The computer automatically(well sorta) advance and retards the timing.
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in the middle of me writing this my father had called toyota and MSD. the only way to properly achieve a factory timing curve is to use a vacume advanced distributor.
WRONG!
Quote:
Originally Posted by powerline-k9 View Post
other wise you won't have any advance in your timing during higher rpms.
WRONG AGIAN!



Quote:
Originally Posted by powerline-k9 View Post
thanx to everyone who tried to help. i might not have been very clear in my initial question. i was hoping it would be a quick answer but in the end i got what i needed.
Ok, MSD's serve two functions 1: Below 3300RPM they provide multiple sparks instead of just one. 2: Above 3300RPM they provide a single longer duration spark. Thats it.

Whoever told you that you needed a vacuum advance distributor on your EFI truck is flat wrong, and I'm calling Bullshit on you ever calling MSD. they would have told you what adapter you needed and even explained the whole wiring process(ASK ME HOW I KNOW!)

I ran a MSD 6A with a pertronix coil and MSD tach adapter #8910HEI(old part number)on my injected 86 for 7 years with no problems.

My 91 now runs a digital 6 plus with a blaster ss coil and MSD #8910EIS(new part number) adapter. runs great. only difference I really felt was from idle to 3000RPM. Starts well, idles a little smoother. Retards the timing automatically when the Nitrous turns on, rev limiter is adjustable with a screwdriver instead of pills. Retard the timing a wee bit when cranking and can even wait a full rotation before firing the engine!

No I still can't get it to do dishes, and yes it is a horrible spotter!
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