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Old 06-21-2007, 10:43 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Milling head on 22RE?

How much can I mill the head on my '91 22RE engine? I want to get at least 12:1, preferably 13:1 CR.
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Old 06-21-2007, 11:13 AM   #2 (permalink)
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my 22r head is haved .015 and i was told thta is pretty much the max you can take off? I was told anymore than that and you have to use a shimmed HG.
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Old 06-21-2007, 11:57 AM   #3 (permalink)
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You can't get that kind of insane compression safely by milling the head.

If you are asking this question, you are over your head and need to stop whatever you are doing.
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Old 06-21-2007, 12:20 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Use a grinder , it's faster than milling it......
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Old 06-21-2007, 12:55 PM   #5 (permalink)
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A belt sander would be better....
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Old 06-21-2007, 12:56 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Or lots of JB weld on the pistons to increase dome volume..
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Old 06-21-2007, 01:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
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If you do have it milled, it will throw your cam timing off a little bit. Plus those shims can be tricky to seal up. Just get a blower.
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Old 06-21-2007, 01:49 PM   #8 (permalink)
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How much can I mill the head on my '91 22RE engine? I want to get at least 12:1, preferably 13:1 CR.


You do realize that it will still be a 22re?

What is your goal here?
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Old 06-21-2007, 02:09 PM   #9 (permalink)
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How much can I mill the head on my '91 22RE engine? I want to get at least 12:1, preferably 13:1 CR.
Do it, and then Run cheap 87 octane and post picutres of your detonated piston with a whole in a top so we can laugh
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Old 06-21-2007, 02:11 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Do it, and then 87 octane and advance the timing 10 degrees. Take pics
Fixed
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Old 06-21-2007, 03:14 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Do it, and then Run cheap 87 octane and post picutres of your detonated piston with a whole in a top so we can laugh

Maybe he's running propane? Or is going to try E85 (assuming he can remap his fuel some how)?

Ask Engnbldr how much you can safely take off. You're going to impact cam timing, but you can get an adjustable gear to resolve that issue.
Dunno how much slack you can safely put in your timing chain.
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Old 06-21-2007, 04:38 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I just laugh because trying to get a bump of 4 compression points via milling is rather insane.

For example, on my Acura motor, you can safely cut about 0.030 off it, that bumps you about 0.7 comp.

You'd end up taking around an 1/8th of an inch to get compression like that.


If you are too dumb to understand that, you are too dumb to build an engine that runs at 13:1 comp. There are questions in life that if you have to ask, the answer is no.
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Old 06-21-2007, 05:53 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Hrey guys . I just changed my head gasket , timing chain steel guides , had the head machined , actually rebuilt . I set the timing at 5 degrees ( 22re) & its the timing feels retarded . I need to bump it up to about 12 degrees & it runs ok . I just want to be able to drive it .
I am wondering if they machined too much of the head ?
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Old 06-22-2007, 11:43 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Your dizzy gear or your cam gear is probably off a tooth.
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Old 06-22-2007, 08:05 PM   #15 (permalink)
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You do realize that it will still be a 22re?

What is your goal here?
Ah sorry, I should have said -- I'm running E85 in my stock 22RE and want to optimize it for alcohol. E85 is 105 octane, 100% ethanol is around 125, both work best at 13:1.
If I can't get that much, what's the max?
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Old 06-22-2007, 09:38 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Ah sorry, I should have said -- I'm running E85 in my stock 22RE and want to optimize it for alcohol. E85 is 105 octane, 100% ethanol is around 125, both work best at 13:1.
If I can't get that much, what's the max?
Uh, did you change all the fuel lines and seals for things that can handle ethanol's corrosiveness, such as stainless and teflon materials? The 22re fuel rail is aluminum. The injector seals are rubber. Your fuel tank and fuel lines are regular steel. You need to quit doing this to your engine.

You'll need to go for boost to actually make more power with the higher octane stuff. Chasing it with compression ratio won't get you there. And you'll need some custom pistons from LC engineering to get into 11:1 territory.
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Old 06-22-2007, 09:44 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Hrey guys . I just changed my head gasket , timing chain steel guides , had the head machined , actually rebuilt . I set the timing at 5 degrees ( 22re) & its the timing feels retarded . I need to bump it up to about 12 degrees & it runs ok . I just want to be able to drive it .
I am wondering if they machined too much of the head ?
Sounds like you are either not shorting the test jumper or your TPS is not adjusted correectly:
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri...roubleshooting

5 BTDC w/ jumper = 12 BTDC w/o jumper.
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Old 06-23-2007, 05:25 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Uh, did you change all the fuel lines and seals for things that can handle ethanol's corrosiveness, such as stainless and teflon materials? The 22re fuel rail is aluminum. The injector seals are rubber. Your fuel tank and fuel lines are regular steel. You need to quit doing this to your engine.

You'll need to go for boost to actually make more power with the higher octane stuff. Chasing it with compression ratio won't get you there. And you'll need some custom pistons from LC engineering to get into 11:1 territory.
That's a lot of urban myth. The fact is, ethanol is NOT corrosive -- methanol is, ethanol isn't. You drink ethanol, right? And another fact is that every vehicle manufacturer started making their stuff ethanol proof in about '83 when the oil companies started switching from MTBE to ethanol. Lots of people run ethanol with zero problems.
Also, I don't know where you get the idea that raising compression doesn't work well with ethanol and/or higher octane. That's the most common method of conversion.
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Old 06-23-2007, 05:33 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Maybe he's running propane? Or is going to try E85 (assuming he can remap his fuel some how)?

Ask Engnbldr how much you can safely take off. You're going to impact cam timing, but you can get an adjustable gear to resolve that issue.
Dunno how much slack you can safely put in your timing chain.
You don't need to remap the EFI, it works fine the way it is, and, in fact, I'm getting noticeably more power. Even running 50% E85 and 50% E20 (which gives about E52.5) gives you definitely more power. Try it. And you can run that mix even in the OBDII engines. Those do need to remap the EFI to run E85 well, or buy one of those $50 conversion modules that goes between the ECU and the injectors. But the older injection systems (pre '96 or so) work fine out of the box with E85.
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Old 06-23-2007, 06:48 AM   #20 (permalink)
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To sort of answer part of the Q.

My Machine Shop (Jess Miller - West Chester PA) states that he will not mill a 22RE head more than 0.020".

Mine took two passes on the machine to clean up - 0.012" total
Looks like I can take one more pass....

But like Hagger sez... yer going the wrong way to mill a 22RE head for a huge bump in CR
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Old 06-23-2007, 07:17 AM   #21 (permalink)
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To sort of answer part of the Q.

My Machine Shop (Jess Miller - West Chester PA) states that he will not mill a 22RE head more than 0.020".

Mine took two passes on the machine to clean up - 0.012" total
Looks like I can take one more pass....

But like Hagger sez... yer going the wrong way to mill a 22RE head for a huge bump in CR
So the only way to do it is with pistons? I see LC has 12:1 pistons for $588 or custom for $649. That's pretty expensive --- maybe I should look for a junkyard turbo setup.
What are the problems with milling the head more -- does it weaken the head? Or is it just the problem with the cam gear and timing chain slack? That seems pretty easy to deal with.
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Old 06-23-2007, 12:12 PM   #22 (permalink)
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So the only way to do it is with pistons? I see LC has 12:1 pistons for $588 or custom for $649. That's pretty expensive --- maybe I should look for a junkyard turbo setup.
What are the problems with milling the head more -- does it weaken the head? Or is it just the problem with the cam gear and timing chain slack? That seems pretty easy to deal with.
>>>*I agree with the machinist that says .020" is about it. The concerns are valve timing, of course that is correctable by using an adjustable top gear.
The other concern is timing chain slack which really isn't that easy to deal with.
I doubt you can purchase any kind of pump fuel that will run with those compression numbers, race gas is available though which would work. We like VP Red, (which isn't exactly gasoline.)

If the bottom end power is soft, go get one of those adjustable top gears, advance her by about 1-2 degrees, bet you will feel the difference....*EB
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Old 06-23-2007, 12:21 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Plus, you'll start getting issues with piston to valve clearance, quench area, valve shrouding, etc.
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Old 06-23-2007, 06:45 PM   #24 (permalink)
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>>>*I agree with the machinist that says .020" is about it. The concerns are valve timing, of course that is correctable by using an adjustable top gear.
The other concern is timing chain slack which really isn't that easy to deal with.
I doubt you can purchase any kind of pump fuel that will run with those compression numbers...
E85 (which sells here at the pump for $2.09 as of today) runs best with a compression of 12:1 or 13:1. Straight ethanol, E100, will will work with even higher compression. In fact some guys have been running it in diesels with 16:-18:1 CR by just adding 1% biodiesel to the ethanol to provide lube to the injection pump.
As far as the chain is concerned, can't you just remove a link?
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Old 06-23-2007, 06:53 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Plus, you'll start getting issues with piston to valve clearance, quench area, valve shrouding, etc.
I thought the 22RE pistons were flat topped. That's one of the major differences between the 20R and the 22R, right? The 20R has domed pistons and a combustion chamber of hmm, 85? 88? cc, and the 22R has flat pistons and a 58cc combustion chamber? But the LC 12:1 and 12.5:1 pistons for the 22RE are clearly domed in the pictures, to give the higher CR. And that would then change the non-interference nature of the engine too, it would seem.
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