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Doing double flares on brake lines.

6K views 28 replies 19 participants last post by  86tuning 
#1 ·
I'm not getting much help in the "Shop and Tools" section so I thought I would try here.

How many of you guys have reflared old toyota truck brake lines. I'm talking about 45 degree double flares.

I've tried it 20 times now, with 2 different tools, and the first tool wouldn't get the second step done, and now my new Ridgid flaring tool won't do the first step.

OH. I think I just figure it out. I remember reading someone writing about having to do the first step with their crappy tool, and then switching to the Ridgid tool for the second step. But that is retarted. Why can't I just get a simple flare done on the stock line? I've got good tools now and I just want it to work right!

Ideas? Comments? Flames?
 
#2 ·
Unless you are redoing the whole brake system with new hard lines, I found it to be a lot less of a headache to just buy new custom made lines at the local "mom and pop" auto parts store. Most of the time they come in standard lenghts with any fitting you want or they would cut them down to a custom length with any fittings as well.

I possess and have used a double flare tool (kit) before and it worked just fine but you have to be careful not to break the pin off that goes inside the tubing when you flare it. Like I said, just easier to go a line already flared with the fittings you need on it IMO.

:smokin:
 
#3 ·
Yes, I know that would be easier but it's not a choice for me right now. One of the flares I'm doing is on the end of the line that runs from the front right wheel all the way to the back of the truck. It's long and it goes behind the fuel tank. I am also doing this to put 2 amerian size thread nuts on to fit my proportioning valve.

So I really want to be able to do it this way because:

A. I don't want to drop the fuel tank
B. You can't buy a 6 foot brake line with one end metric and the other end american
C. I have already spent the money on the tools
D. I am a very determined person and if I find away around this..................the brake line system will have won the battle.
E. I like a challenge, and I won't sleep right until I can say that "I did it".

I'm sure you understand.
 
#4 ·
How are you cutting the tube? I friend of mine who restores vehicles says not to use a tubing cutter, because they work harden the tube. He said to use a hacksaw with a fine tooth blade.

Disclaimer: i have never done this, I would just buy lines with the fittings already on.
 
#6 · (Edited)
I have been cutting it with my trusty dusty Dremel tool. (I still don't know how I lived life without that tool before I owned one)

Yes, I read the same info as you about not using a tubing cutter. In the hours of online research that I have read more about that, it seems to me that the main issue with using one of those is that you have to use one with a sharp cutting wheel and only tighten a little bit with each 3 or so revolutions. I figure that alot of people use them just fine, but my Dremel works and I don't need one.

This morning after reading your replies and the links to the other threads, I thought about how/what I have been doing compared to how I did this 2 weeks ago with the other tool. I think I do in fact need to spend more time chamfering, beveling, deburring............whatever you want to call it. The way that I am seeing it now is that I need to get rid of some metal, inside or outside, or BOTH to weaken up the end of the stupid tube so that it will start to collapse as soon as the cone starts pressing on it.

As soon as the end of that tubing starts to "Y" out, it's not going to be able to slide through the hole in the tool. Or at least that's where my thinking is going today. When I just put tube into it without the adapter and crank on it to make a single flare 45, it works just fine and doesn't slide through.

My other tool had MEGA teeth in it and would literally bite the living crap out of the line. I didn't really need to do much chamfurring. This tool has a smooth bore 3/16th hole and needs the extra help I'm sure.

So let me get down to the garage and see what happens. I'll get back to you with the results. Thanks guys.
 
#7 ·
You know, I just thought of something. When I Dremel the end off, it does heat up the tube quite a bit. I can't hold it with my bare hand. So am I tempering the metal? I mean I'm not quenching it in cold water, but I am heating it up and it's getting cooled off rather quickly anyway. And I am doing that over and over and over again as I am practicing on the same piece of line.

I am heating up about 5 inches of line from the cut, and then when I screw up I only cut off about 3/4 of an inch. So after doing that 5-6 times I am actually trying to flare a peice of tube that has been through 5 or 6 heat cycles.

Is that part of my problem?
 
#8 ·
I just reflared my toyota brake lines for a GM one ton master cylinder. I did not want to go the route of using adapters. to many connections to fail. I used a double flare by performance tool,25$ from sears. My key to success as follows. deburr, chamfer edges...

1. Aafter you use the first flare tool and remove the small bubble piece, you should have a bubble flare on the end of your brakeline.
2.Take a small flat hammer and beat down the bubble flare until its flush with the clamping tool that is holding the brake line.:grinpimp:
3. Then just run the flare remer down to get your double flare.
4. you made need to use a drill bit to enlarge brake line hole.


This technique made real clean double flares with no cracks. I have been leak free for months.

Your welcome:flipoff2:
 
#9 ·
I just tried it again. My Ridgid flaring tool will not hold the stupid line in place. I will either have to make this tool work with something in the hole to make it a bit smaller, or just go get yet another tool.

Maybe I will have to get a metric fit tool after all. sigh
Looks like more waiting.
 
#11 ·
I tried sandpaper, thin rubber, and some other materials that I can't remember right now.

I called my wife while she was in town today and had her go by Harbour Freight and get me their version of a double flare tool too. I just tried it twice. The first crack at it didn't hold the tube again, but I didn't have it cranked all the way down. The second attempt held the tube, but the tube end bent over to one side as it buckled as well. I'll try some more.

My plan is to get the HF tool to make my bubble flare (the first step to a double) and the Ridgid tool to do the second step.
 
#12 ·
When I was doing the brakes on my truggy, I had tons of issues with the double flares. I used a Summit Racing proportioning valve, so I ran into the same BS. I initially used a cheap double flare tool. The flares would not stay centered. I always had two problems. Either the brake line would slide through the clamping portion of the tool during the first step in the flare or ont the second step of the flare, the inverted portion would not be centered.

I finally bought a high end flaring tool ($$$, but well worth it) My success came with some tricks that I had picked up though. I would use tubing cutter (I had never heard of not using them, but now I know) and then I would chamfer the outer edge and I would run a file on the end of the line. My cutter has a small deburring blade that flips out and allows you to touch up the inner lip that the tubing cutter creates. After this, I would take a 1/16" pin punch that would fit in the ID of the brake line and tap it in with a hammer. This kinda started the flare.

I would then tediously make sure that the line was securely clamped and slowly go through the motions. Once I did the first flare, I would make sure the line was still clamped tightly and run the second flare.

After all was said and done, I would take the file again and lightly run it on the tip of the inverted flare (or double flare as you call it)

If I follow these steps, I get about a 95% success rate. Well, thats a total guess.

The shittiest part about brake lines is that I always end up doing all the bends and then I flare the lines. And if you screw up.....in most cases it can be salvaged, but not always. Ask me how I know. Ever done a line with 8 bends in several planes, only to screw up the last flare?

Good Luck.

P.S. The tool I use is a MasterCool 71475. It ran me a couple hundred dollars, but it is a very versatile flaring tool.

It can do all of these:



I only wish it could do 37 degree flares :(
 
#13 ·
Dunno, I use a basic double flare kit and have no major issues. I messed up the first couple I tried, mainly due to the think not grabbing the tube hard enough because I wasn't tightening it up enough.

Meh, I used a mini tubing cutter and the tool, and it works. The standard cutter keeps the cut perfectly square, which I find inportant. And you need it nice and square in the clamp. Likewise, you need to make sure you have the correct amount sticking out for the first operation.
 
#14 ·
Alright Pirate People, I FINALLY figured out the winning combination. It's quite interesting. Read on.

For the record, I am flaring my stock 84 Toyota 4.75mm (3/16 inch) brake lines that measure 4.86 or so in my digital calipers. I am cutting it with a dremel tool using cutting discs (duh), then squaring off the end with the flat face of a grinding wheel in my dremel, then spinning a drill bit on the inside edge to chamfur and deburr, then using a flat file to chamfur and shape the outside edge and running it lightly across the top again for the final preparation step.

TOOL #1.
I first bought a Lysle double flaring tool from a local speed shop type auto parts place. It wasn't anything special and came with all the adapters pucks for $45 out the door.

POSITIVES AND NEGATIVES
The bars where 2 seperate pieces that fastened together with 2 long nuts. (Good cause they are not winged nuts and you can use your socket and rachet to tighten the suckers down well) All the holes were ridged and held my tubing well. (Good) Almost too well. When the bars were snug on the tubing, I still had a pretty good sized gap between them allowing me to really clamp the tube. So well in fact that the teeth would bite the outside of the tubing a bit. It didn't look pretty, but it sure didn't slide through the bars. The adapter piece was ok, I think, but could have been alot better. (keep reading) The cone press part sucked. (Bad) It was too tall which allowed it to move around easily, and there was ALOT of room between it and the outside of the bar clamp sides. Whenever I would tighten it down on either steps 1 or 2, it would easily move around and I had to keep an eagle eye on it as I tightened it down. (Bad)

HOW IT WORKED
With alot of careful watching, playing with it, and letting a tad bit less tube stick out of the bar clamp to start, I could get it this thing to create a really nice looking bubble flare for the first step just about every time. The tube stayed secured very well. When I pulled the adapter puck out and did the second step however, it would always start to go off to one side or the other. Sometimes a little, sometimes alot. After 10-12 tries with this tool I took it back to the shop to get my money.

TOOL #2
For my second tool I bought the Ridgid double flaring tool at Home Depot. It did not come with any pucks and cost $43 out the door.

POSITIVES AND NEGATIVES
This thing is a MUCH better tool in ALOT of ways. But it has one major flaw. (keep reading)
The bar clamp is heftier and is connected permanently on one side. (Good) It just opens and closes on the other side like a jaw which keeps it together and lined up much better than the other versions. It does not have any clamping bolts or wing nuts. The clamping devise is on the cone press part. (I thought it was good, and it turned out to be better than good for my final setup..........keep going) The bar clamp also had spaces directly beside each sized hole where the side clamp on the cone press would fit into, helping you to line things all up. (Good) This also allowed you to clamp the bar shut directly beside the hole you are using. Know what I mean? If you use a hole in the middle of tool #1, the 2 clamp bolts on the sides would tighten the ends down till they touch, but the tubing in the middle would keep the middle spread apart. The down side to this tool? One of the holes, the one I was using was NOT ridged! It was smooth along the walls. I ordered the adapter puck for 3/16 separately from Toolbarn.com and got it in 5 days. The puck is awesome. (Good) The nipple end that fits into the tube is shorter (less likely to break) and fatter which makes it very stable in the tube with not much room to move around (and again, less likely to break). The area around the other end of the nipple where the tube contacts it is very different. It's not as deep of a dish as others that I have seen and it's angles in the dish are not as steep. Seems to me that it would make the tube buckle into a bubble flare much easier and with much more support. The other side of the puck is better as well. The hole cut out for the point of the cone press to enter is wider and has alot more wall space for the cone to ride against as your pressing it down into the tube. This makes a BIG difference in stability and keeps everything sitting stable, square, and true as it gets pressed down. (Hella good) The cone press part is very thick, stout and squared off at the edges, unlike the others I have seen that have round parts, narrow and LOTS of room between it and the sides of the bars. You just have to hold one of these things in your hands after using crap stuff to fully understand all that I am talking about but to sum it up, while your cranking on the press of the Ridgid tool, it stays put, period.

HOW IT WORKED.
When I bought it I went out to my car, opened it up, and threw a piece of tubing in it that I brought with me. It was so easy to slap it together, clamp it, and press the cone straight down into the tubing to do a single 45 flare. (no puck yet, remember?) But I did worry about the smooth walls not being able to hold the tube in place while doing the first step when I got the adapter puck. Well, I got the puck in the mail, put it all together, and when I clamped down onto my tube again it pushed it right through the bar clamp like it was greased. Great. I tried putting a few things in there to tighten it up but after looking at it really hard I noticed that I could just about make the whole bar clamp sides touch along the whole length of the thing with mininal effort. This was NOT going to work.

So, I had tried one crappy tool that would hold the tube very well while getting step one done, but wouldn't do step 2 to save my life. And I tried this tool that was better in every way except one. It wouldn't hold the tube in place to get the very first step done, but would do step 2 just fine. Enter tool #3.

TOOL #3
Since I knew that cheap tool #1 worked for holding the tube, and that Harbor Freights tool looked just like it for only $12.99 with the pucks, I got that.

POSITIVES AND NEGATIVES
Cheap. (duh) And for everything else, see TOOL #1. They are the same except this one has wing nuts to tighten the bar clamp. And that sucks more. I am buying nuts to replace them. The bar metal is also weaker and spreads apart at the tubing as you tighten it down on the clamp end nuts.

HOW IT WORKS.
My plan was to use this one to do step 1, and the Ridgid to do step 2. Simple right? Wrong. Now THIS TOOL wouldn't even do step 1. The cheapo crappy puck that this thing comes with was all over the place. Plus now I was dealing with the press that moved around again. I tried again. This time however I thought that I would use the much better shaped and sturdy Ridgid puck. It fit just fine. I was about to grab the cone press part to fasten it and thought, "Hey, I wonder if the Ridgid press will fit over this bar?" To my dismay, it barely fit over the bar. I then carefully lined it up to tighten down the cone press part first a bit, then I noticed just how well these 2 tools fit together. The really cool part is the solid side of the Ridgid tool, the side without the clamp, is completely filled up with the outside wall of the bar clamp on that side. It really makes for a stable and secure platform. Then as an added bonus, the clamp on the Ridgid cone press can be used in addition to the 2 clamps on the Harbour Freight bar clamp nuts, and you have 3! This clamp on the cone press presses in on the hole where I am working and closed up the wide gap in the clamp even more. There is no way that the tube is gonna slide out now. I have seen pictures online of guys using this same tool or one like it and they put the bar clamp in their vise to take care of that problem. But I hated that. For one thing, I don't have a vise! (yet) But the other thing is that I need to do a line that is on the truck, and I want to be able to do lines on the truck in the future as well. I sure as hell don't want to rely on a 50 lb vise to go along with my stupid flaring tool.

So I clamped this thing down for a hurricane, and pressed the cone down. No problem. I pulled out the adapter puck and pressed down again. Perfect flare. I made another one..........perfect flare.

I hope that this info helps some of you other guys out there that has to double flare on a budget. I too want to own the Mastercool do-it-all tool. But when I might only use it 15 more times in my life, $250 is too much.
 
#15 ·
The funny thing about good tools is that you THINK you will never use them again, but when you do - its kinda a "uh oh... oh wait I have an X and then you make the tool work and you are on your way"... so yeah - they are worth it - because the SECOND time you use it its priceless...

For "pro" level flaring tools
-- aircraft spruce
(Imperial Eastman brand)
 
#18 ·
just buck up and buy a snap on flare kit, and buy a tube bender from the guy while you are at it. Kit works great, I always cut with the line cutting tool, then de-burr with the tool in the kit, then clamp, press, flare, done.......Not too hard once you have done a few.
 
#19 · (Edited)
If my current set-up had not worked, my next move was going to be buying that KD version from NAPA. $120.00 is still half the cost of that Mastercool tool.

BUT, my flaring set up worked great today. You would have to try this to believe just how well it does. I just did 8 flares today that were great. I think. I guess I won't really know till I get the SS lines on, the master cylinder full of fluid again, bleed em and try em out. But comparing the factory flares to the ones that I am making makes me smile real big.:D

Oh yea, and I agree with the comment about stock Toyota lines being a PITA to flare. Now I know. It was just hard to turn the handle most of the time, even with a touch of thread cutting oil on the cone tip and the end of the tubing. But other than that, the tubing stayed straight, flared correctly, and did not split any where.
 
#21 ·
I have an Inperial 93-FB flare set that I ordered from McMaster Carr, $48.81, and I use a Rigid Mini tubing cutter. Always works great, just follow the instructions to the letter. They reccomend deburring both the inside and outside of the cut edge before flaring. I use a countersink for the inside and a flat file for the outside. Tool grips tubing so tightly it leaves marks. The handle of the yoke is used to tighten the tool securely onto the tubing. Also a drop of oil on the adapter(puck) helps on the first step of flare. The only problem I ever had with tube splitting was when I performed the second flare operation first. I was laying under the truck doing the rear porportion valve without my glasses and I hadn't done a flare in a while. It pays to take your time and read and reread the instructions several times. Also practicing on old spare line is a help. It's much easier to learn when you're not laying on the ground or under the hood, and mistakes on the truck can be costly.

Overall flaring brake lines is a simple technique anyone shound be able to perform with the proper tool and a little practice.
 
#22 ·
UPDATE:

I got done bleeding the brakes yesterday (after braking off a bleeder bolt, then buying 2 new rear wheel cylinders and changing out the old ones) and gravity bled the whole system. I had to use my mighty vac to get the first one (drivers rear) and the third one (passenger front) started, but after that they just bled out great.

I road tested it today doing 7 or 8 "slam on the brakes" tests while ajusting the SSBC proportioning valve. That thing is sweet. Anyway, I am happy to report that I don't have ANY of the new flares that I made leaking and everything is working perfectly.:smokin:

After making a total of 9 perfect flares (all on 23 year old Toyota lines) with my new flare tool setup, I have complete confidence in this setup. Next time I do flares all I will have to do is make 1 practice flare to warm up and then go for it.
 
#23 ·
I'm in the process of crossing this bridge right now.

I purchased a Performance Tools $23.00 kit yesterday and it worked great all day long.. well today I got up to get some adapters and put them on... now the clamp bar will not hold the 3/16" line at all.. it just slides right through. Upon close inspection I can see the burs or ridges that hold the tube in place are nearly stripped completely.. so I tighten the piss out of it and break off a threaded stud. Go get another one from the local parts store and it immediately does the same thing.. stripped! I take it back.. go with the Lisle model for $29.00 more. Take it home and it really clamps down well but as mentioned above.. the bulge works perfectly but when its time to flare it down into itself the tubing just splits apart in random spots :shaking:

I tried it a good 10 times today with no luck.. so tomorrow i'm going to bulge it out and before I flare just run a small drill bit down inside and see if that fixs it..

I really do not want to replace the hardline because its the one that goes from the rear to the front and they're all connected together at the firewall.. i'll have to pull everything apart to get it out... its worse comes to worse I will do this but would prefer not too.

I'll post back my progress tomorrow, I'm going to look into this Rigid kit that Home Depot sales.

Good tech, thanks
 
#24 ·
I found double flaring is too much for reusing stock lines. I single flaree. check to make surwe the line did not split and run it. they do not leak or rupture. the stock lines are too thin and brittle for double flare and is not needed. the flare only hase to be about 45* not 90*. it is a pain to get a stock line to work. just don't go to big.
 
#25 ·
I have done a gret deal of flaring (more than 200 hundred). I rarely make a full flare anymore because it is just not needed. The only time I do make a full flare is when I am trying to impress and I have a new tool that has good teeth.
 
This post has been deleted
#27 ·
So how do you keep the flares from wandering off-center? I follow the instructions to a "T", but every flare wanders a little bit. I've tried three different types of tools, but it still happens every time. What am I missing???
 
#26 ·
Several ppl have already mentioned that you get what you pay for when it comes to tools- so true. I've only used high end flaring tools, and even with those you have to be careful. I have found that it is essential to have a perfectly square cut, a good deburr, and that the tool clamp halves are lined up very parallel. IMO not using a tubing cutter is bootyfab, but they could be right about the work hardening.
 
#28 ·
:D Glad you got it to work for you.

Me I would have replaced all the steel lines while you had it apart. I too spent many a day or night trying to double flare old steel lines.

All new finished easier to do the only tricky part is the line to the rear . I just tape the flare nut so it doesn`t get full of dirt.
 
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