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Webwheelers with too much time, e-build a motor!

2K views 45 replies 13 participants last post by  toyjoeta 
#1 ·
Yeah there is an ftoy forum, but I think this one gets a lot more traffic from motor heads!

So buggy engines in my mind are an odd breed, and my thinking on this motor is as follows:

-Regular or premium requirements barely matter, since the dont use much fuel. Though being able to run on whatever is nice.

-Reliability, responsiveness is key.

-I have a personal limit on how much Im willing to spend on a motor. Call me crazy but a 5k motor running for 200 miles a year seems silly.

-Its in an Ftoy, so I cannot run turbos, SC, or anything but a squirrel infested 22r. We're also running factory injection, run by an ORS harness.

-20R on 22r block is out, since we're staying with factory injection.

-Since I like to try and chase v8 buggies, broad power range is important. Lots of gears for crawling, so a bottom end only is not needed. idle to 5k-6k powerband would be nice.

-The more power the better!


So what would you build? Right now its got a header and 2.25 exh, no cat, freeflow turbo muffler, and we're needing to play with plug gap and general tuning. Followed shortly by larger TB, and cam. From there comes a long block. Thinking a new head with bigger valves, minor port work, and maybe smoothing the intake runners a little. On the bottom end Im a bit torn on just a honing/rering job, or bumping compression up with higher compression pistons and thus putting a bit more in the bottom end.

The only real concern I have with bottom end parts/cost is being that I have no respect for upsidedown rigs, the mottor will get hammered on with zero oil pressure. The parts that get the most abuse from this, is the bottom end.

Thoughts?
 
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#12 ·
Defniitely don't want to go too short on the duration and too large on the lift, this would lump all the power down low and possibly suck some exhaust gases back into the intake manifold if the overlap isn't optimal.
 
#3 ·
Forgot to mention...

I am looking for a very well running/performing engine...BUT....





With a bit more tuning, and retarding the timing, planning on running a bit of this:
 

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#5 ·
Ive been told a 50 shot is cake, and 75 shot is VERY possible for a stock 22r to take.
 
#33 ·
What are you smoking?

Its 9.5:1 out of the box. That's the max you can run with regular unleaded. Over that and its drinking Super. How easy is it to be over 9.5:1. Deck the block a couple thousands to get rid of ring groove, deck the head for the same reason and you are 10:1. I CAN'T run regular in my truck with a EB 268 cam that that minor work. I can get away with mid grade but it really wants super. For a low end torker you do not want to be over 10:1

My truck is happy as a lark putting along in low at 1300RPM. It will put down to 700rpm and really fight not to stall.

Personally Unless you got deep pockets and Just like fixing scattered parts regularly its ridiculous to build a upper RPM motor for off roading. Control is where its at on most trail rigs. Granted this is a comp vehicle so you want the ability but you don't want to build a high rpm only motor and big compression is what makes it High RPM. The 50 shot in a light Ftoy....Why the hell would you want to go much over stock compression when you got the top end boost at the push of a button.

Balance, port match, Thorley header, Heated O2, Better pistons and rods for the bottle but stock compression pistons and maybe a Mega Squirt and 50 Shot...that would be a well rounded motor that should last for years if you take it easy on the bottle.
 
#8 ·
Spend some money on the reciprocating assembly. Balancing and blueprinting a long block is money well spent, IMO. And yeah, up the CR.
 
#11 ·
what are larger injectors going to do if he doesn't have a significantly increased amount of airflow going in and out of the engine?

larger injectors will more than likely make him lose power.

Basically he should be at the point where, whatever injectors he's using, the duty cycle is never more than 80-90% at any given time, to allow good reliability. So if he can use the stock injectors and maintain a duty cycle of that area with all those mods, why upgrade?

A good standalone ECU would seriously help in tuning. Figure possibly Haltech or electro-motive Tec3R.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Balancing/blueprinting....possibly custom lightweight con-rods, high compression forged pistons. Get low-friction piston skirt coating and thermal piston top coating (both offered by Swain), get crank shaved and balanced with assembly (including clutch/flywheel if manual trans), Oversize valves, extrude honed cylinder head and intake manifold (or ported head and extrude honed-port matched intake manifold), custom 4-2-1 header (better for a broad powerband) and probably, since it's a 2.4L, a cam with something like 265* duration with about 11mm lift. If you're familiar at all with Nissan SR20's, and Jim Wolf Technology a cam slightly less aggressive than their S4 cam, something between an S3/S4 style cam for n/a allowing for good low and midrange but excellent top end.

You might need some custom valvesprings......I'm not familiar with the 22RE valvetrain, but I think it's direct acting, which CAN allow some really high revs depending on the bore/stroke and piston speeds.

That's pretty much all you can do.

As for oil......dry sump? Dry sump can also eliminate possible power loss due to oil friction of sloshing on the crankshaft, or a nice custom baffle in the oil pan.
 
#19 ·
Here ya go Brian :flipoff2:

Build one of these, 50 free hp baby :eek:

Easy 50 HP

HA HA HA!

Someone showed that too me probably 7 o 8 years ago. Though its still funny! I think if you leave the Folgers printing on its worth another 5 horse or so, and definately gets the ladies!
 
#14 ·
I'd not do too much to the bottom end, if you are going to pull pistons to go a hone and re-ring, then toss in higher comp parts while you are in there. I'd guess going to 10.5:1 might get you around 8-12 ft-lbs.

Put work into the head and intake. Extrude honing the intake would work well, but it usually seems to be pricy. Do mild headwork as well.

Cleaning the intake, getting all of the sensors working and adjusted right, idle circuits, etc, cleaned and balanced (stock) injectors. Cam, and header/exhaust.

Probaby gain ~15-20 ft-lbs through the powerband with that setup.

I don't know how much you want to lighten the rotating assembly. My preferences with off roading a 4 cyl, having engine inertia helps down at 400 rpm from stalling.
 
#16 ·
true about a lightweight rotating assembly, however, that can be combated with a higher weight flywheel.

Obviously, you want it all completely balanced.

Are there rules against stroking? Obviously you're looking for torque. Not many better ways of increasing torque in a motor not using f/i than stroking it. 2.4L now, stroke to about 2.5-2.6L, probably get a 10% increase in torque, maybe more, combined with higher compression. 10.5:1 compression might be a little high unless you can combat detonation with a good cooling system and maybe methanol injection, but for a motor that does not get much moving airflow over it and runs hard, I'd be careful about how high you go, compression wise.

True extrude honing can be pricey, but if you're going to do complete head work, just port matching the intake manifold won't cut it. Gotta do the whole package to see the results!
 
#18 ·
Nothing in the rules about running stroker. Replacement cost has me against it.

Someone touched on another note, cooling. Cannot/will not accept a motor that will have much higher cooling demands than a relatively stock motor. I wont be able to cool, so Ill blow it, and have no power.

Standalone, SDS we all know would get potentially more power. For replacement cost, and sealed system, this is not an option either. Yes, think snow runs.


The other thought on folks who have built motors, what did you do, and what would you do if you could do it again? For instance, last well running 22RE I had was rebuilt, 20 over, all yota parts, stock valves, triy header (same one) later a idle to 4500 cam, and later a larger AFM. To do again, I want more power, and more top end. Having a 4cyl fall on its face at 4500 was a little annoying.

As for injectors, Ive got lots of stock injectors, so cleaning is in order. Ive also got some 4age injectors. Difference being 185/190 vs. 210. I dont know that Ill be able to use them or not. Though they may come in handy with said blue bottle.
 
#21 ·
You keep reminding me of things! I do have an adjustable timing gear going in, so we'll be able to play with powerband.
 
#22 ·
I'll probably get hacked for this, but in my personal opinion, if using NOS is not restricted under the rule "must be naturally aspirated" (as NOS is pressurized), then I say a new law be made to restrict the use of NOS.

I thought the whole idea of F-Toy was for the average joe to build and compete in the series?

This has nothing to do with my affiliation with Marlin Crawler's involvement in the sport as it is even easier for us to juice it under our EFI system, but I would love to build a F-Toy for my self in the future and compete with everyone and I hate NOS. If NOS is allowed then I say Superchargers and Turbos should be allowed, they are all 3 pointed in the same direction....
 
#24 ·
BINGO! I can unbolt a bottle, I cant just unbolt a turbo. I would see zero benefit for a team to try use NOS crawling, unless shrapnel is on the menu!
 
#26 · (Edited)
Made a few phone calls to folks "in the know" (LC, DOA, Engnblr) Looks like bumping compression, to 9.5-10:1, with either forged or hyperwhatever pistons is good, stock rods, crank, probably rod bolts from ARP. Then a new casting head w/oversize stainless valves, very mild port work, and a cam. Run on premium, will take a 100 shot of NOS, so a 50-75 should be just fine, obviously with tuning, but shouldnt melt the pistons. Keep stock injection/ECU, and numbers 150-165 hp are attainable. Though NOS will be later, as it will require timing retard, controller, etc, to really work well. Who knows, Ill probably be happy with ~150, or at least for little bit!

EDIT: Just though about it... Planning on a tach, but I may want a shift light so I dont get into the NOS too early.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Problem with expecting top end power out of your motor is this: You're running what is essentially a truck motor....aka more stroke than bore type deal, which restricts your revs via piston speeds, and therefore is optimal for midrange and low end torque.

If you're looking for top end....a DEstroking kit will allow better revs, slower piston speeds, and maintaining of power up top.

Burns Stainless does awesome work, but they'll cost you as much for a header as you may spend on your entire motor project. Give Bruce a try at protech-fabrication.com I've worked with him a lot, and he's a master welder....does awesome work. It would take some good technical drawings and measurements, but he could build you something that flows extremely well, and probably for not 1/2 the cost of Burns Stainless.

running higher compression will likely require more cooling. So...meizere electric water pump (again to free up hp without the pulley there) for reliable cooling, as said electric fan, and definitely a custom brass core radiator (if you can), and separate trans and oil coolers (which will ALL help a lot)



EDIT: FYI, running nitrous, especially with aftermarket forged pistons, your main worry should be your CON-RODS! That much instant power could, for all you know, bend a rod, or snap one. I'm not too sure how strong the stock rods are, but for peace of mind you might want to cryo them, or shot peen them (or both) for a little added strength. That should in and of itself add 20% strength to the con-rods.
 
#30 ·
Problem with expecting top end power out of your motor is this: You're running what is essentially a truck motor....aka more stroke than bore type deal, which restricts your revs via piston speeds, and therefore is optimal for midrange and low end torque.

If you're looking for top end....a DEstroking kit will allow better revs, slower piston speeds, and maintaining of power up top.

.
Thats kind of the thing, though, I don't think you want to mess too much with the powerband. Thats why I wouldn't want to increase the duration of the cams.

Milling the head, as mentioned, won't move the powerband up, either, just raise the whole curve up(which is good, just not what was said..). Only increasing airflow at higher rpm with do that.

nice thing, is that proper porting will increase top end, withot hurting bottom end(if you don't go in there and hog it all out crazy..).


Basically, pistons, portwork, exhaust, and get it all clean and tuned up properly, best bang for the buck.
 
#31 ·
like you said, conservative port work.

But for the price of headwork, you could extrude hone both the head and the intake manifold and have it all matched. That will super-smooth out the runners, as well as remove a nominal amount of material without going overboard.

I'm not a big fan of milling the head, especially if he goes high compression via pistons (same thing anyways, haha) other than that, if he wants to move the powerband up, shouldn't be hard. Just the stuff we suggested will make it more efficient up there.
 
#32 ·
O-rings in the block must correspond to a specific HG designed for said o-rings.
My block was .060 over, and doing o-rings would have further decreased the meat between cylinders.

I'd strongly recommend a Cometic HG - ARP studs as mentioned. Block needs to be machined R50 or better for the Cometic.. That way if you have to get in there, you can just retorque the HG. My Cometic has taken way more abuse than the rock gasket in there orginally.

My "odd" advice - that no one else gives - if you go with a Top Line casting, compare the bore on head that holds the front right head bolt/stud. Make sure it's as large as OEM.
 
#36 ·
You should be able to get away with more compression than stock, given that the stock 9.3 or whatever works for most on 87 pump gas. Proper work in the combution chambers and theres no reason he couldn't run 10.5.

There are plenty of cars which run 11:1 compression or even higher on premium pump gas. (I ran 11.3 in one of my hondas) Just don't try to wring every drop out of the ignition timing.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, but IF you have access to a dyno, then an adjustable cam gear can make let you tune the range of the powerband. But its almost impossible by the seat of your pants. Its easy to do given that its a SOHC, although les flexible, because of that. If you ran all the settings from -4 to +4, it'd be interesting. Then you could note them, and dial in a little more low end or a little more high end, depending on your needs. Thats where DOHCs are nice, to adjust overlap..
 
#38 ·
Some really good, and some really indepth ideas going on here! But keep in mind, at least for me, there is a budget. There is also risk of severe engine damage in a roll. Think landing on the intake, or valve cover. Its protected, but there's only so much you can do.

Numbers wise, things we've seen so far: ~1500 gets an Engnblr new head, cam, dual springs, OS valves, gaskets, bearings, and this included the cost of some higher compression pistons. As well as the minor machine work to a stock block/rods/crank. He's thinking ~140 without bumping compression, possibly 160-165 with pistons. 5k to LC gets a complete 150 motor, thats not an option, but ~1k for head with OS valves, and a bit more for a cam, and 580 for pistons. Then just machine work, gaskets, bearings, etc. Ive not yet talked numbers with DOA.

Now some of the ideas seem to be getting a bit out of the reasonable cost area, so dont go too crazy.

Water/oil/fan.
-Its electric fan, the radiator sits at ~30 degrees off horizontal
-Electric water pump, possibly in the future, but the fan pulls a decent amp draw, and Id rather keep from just loading the alt. It will be getting a larger alt in the ~100 amp range. At that time a smaller pulley for it is a distinct possibility.
-High volume pump is out as well. Simply because when the rig falls over, the high volume pump will starve the engine on oil quicker than a lower volume pump.
 
#39 ·
Yes I know Im throwing a lot of restictions ono this build, that hamper what could really be done to make power. Lets face it, how many people really wanna throw 5k at engine parts? We've got a crawler, that I want to be able to haul butt in. With as low as it sits, it handles really darn well, and very very well considering leaf springs. Since I cant drive 2 rigs, Im trying to make this one serve both crawler, and high speed. Figuring 50hp is enough for crawling, building a engine not solely on low end makes sense to me.

Lighter flywheel is one thing Im really not sure on. The factory one isnt really all that heavy, so I dont know that it will make much difference anyway.

Ive got a brother with a heavier, more powered rig, that I want to try to keep up with, if not pass.
 
#42 · (Edited)
"At that time a smaller pulley for it is a distinct possibility."


Not to be an Ass or know it all.... but you want a larger pulley on the driven side OR a smaller pulley on the drive side to reduce parasitic drag.
I would suggest starting with a larger alternator pulley and not a smaller crank set. This would leave the waterpump \ PS pump an speeds you \ we are used to. Going with a larger output alternator will increase load.
I currently run the following and can tell a difference before and after the pulley swap.
130 AMP new GM 3 wire alternator from a 2500 6.5 Diesel. (Intended to make it's peak output at lower RPM's)
When coupled with a 5 inch pulley, it halves the RPM the alternator "sees".
This brought the load closer to what the original alt was placing on the 22RE.

So; to fully maximize power; go with a stock alt with a larger pulley to start with. If it does not charge to your liking; look at a Celica or GM replacement.

"-High volume pump is out as well. Simply because when the rig falls over, the high volume pump will starve the engine on oil quicker than a lower volume pump."

A very good point; but consider the following:

Run the loose clearances or not; but install a accumulator to make up for the cavatation until you get righted. Used accumulators are not hard to find on the cheap. :)

My 2 cents; no change requested :)
 
#43 ·
Ooops! got my pulleys backwards! :D Good thing, as we'll probably just make one in house.

The accumulator is definately something on the desired parts list. Im all but out of room under the hood, and seeing where oil starvation hits with the current motor. That will make the decision whether to try to find somewhere to put one, or not worry, and run a lucas or similar additive to help.

The NOS setup is planned as throttle position controlled with a micro cwitch, only at WOT. As soo as you let off, the NOS is cut.
 
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