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Old 05-19-2011, 12:38 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Front triangulated 4 link question

would like some input. the question is dealing with a tri 4 link up front with a drag link, panhard rod, and bump steer. how about use a modified watts linkage instead of the the drag link, assuming that the box will steer in direction needed, meaning moving it forward or backward and turning the pitman are 180 degrees. this is assuming any modifications needed. looking for a theory on why it would or would not work, open to ideas, suggestions.
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Old 05-19-2011, 06:00 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by locost7 View Post
would like some input. the question is dealing with a tri 4 link up front with a drag link, panhard rod, and bump steer. how about use a modified watts linkage instead of the the drag link, assuming that the box will steer in direction needed, meaning moving it forward or backward and turning the pitman are 180 degrees. this is assuming any modifications needed. looking for a theory on why it would or would not work, open to ideas, suggestions.

Why the fuck are you running a triangulated 4 link with a panhard bar? Got a picture of this thing?
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Old 05-19-2011, 06:42 AM   #3 (permalink)
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and keep it stock if you want crapy push pull steering and bump steer from hell! theres a pretty good reason to go to cross over steering so might want to do more research.

and X2 on why the hell run a panhard bar with a triangulated 4 link?
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Old 05-19-2011, 07:21 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Why the fuck are you running a triangulated 4 link with a panhard bar? Got a picture of this thing?
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and keep it stock if you want crapy push pull steering and bump steer from hell! theres a pretty good reason to go to cross over steering so might want to do more research.

and X2 on why the hell run a panhard bar with a triangulated 4 link?
my main idea is to run a modified watts linkage for the drag link. so that it does not induce bump steer, not a panhardrod. i will work on a rough drawing to show what i am talking about.
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Old 05-19-2011, 08:29 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Why can't people just build whats tried and true and works?

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Old 05-19-2011, 09:02 AM   #6 (permalink)
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When I did my 3 link front I tried to get it as close as I could to the others on here that had trucks that look like they work good, no need for some crazy design that ends up not working worth a fuck.
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Old 05-19-2011, 09:15 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Search for the first Blue Torch Fab KOH buggy. They did a linkage steering system with a double triangulated 4 link. They put the steering box under the drivers feet but you could leave the box up front and run linkage back to a pivot on the frame and then back to the axle. I have a system like this planned for my truck. I am using an fj60/62 steering box to get the right rotation and then it will be guess and check work til the pivots are all in the right place so there is no bump steer.

Edit: There are also some trucks in the Big Gay Truck Land that have done similar setups and it works really well. If you search around it has been done, maybe not with a watts link (I really didn't get how you are going to use a watts link for steering), but it has been done.
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:45 AM   #8 (permalink)
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nice they are in alabama, not to far from myself i can go by and pick there brain. i like your idea of using the fj box. im going to be using a fj80 front on my 1gen runner. the idea of using a watts type link instead of a drag link. the principle in theory would be instead of one end being tied in to the axle and the other end to the frame, one end would be tied in to the steering arm on the knuckle and the other end to the steering box. also, say the steering arm on the knuckle from the steering axis inclination to the centerline of tie rod end is 6 inches, the pitman arm from the center line on the box to the center line of the tierod end is 6 inches. the cantilever on the watts would 3 holes, 6 inches from 1 to 2, and 6 inches from 2 to 3, giving equal "rod length" so there is no undo forces or action to hinder the purpose of using that system

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Old 05-19-2011, 11:49 AM   #9 (permalink)
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When I did my 3 link front I tried to get it as close as I could to the others on here that had trucks that look like they work good, no need for some crazy design that ends up not working worth a fuck.
thanks for the advice. have not settled exactly what needs to be done, that is why i am asking around for people have done things, weather they worked or not
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:12 PM   #10 (permalink)
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A Watt's link locates the axle side-side like a Panhard bar, but it doesn't induce sideways deflection during compression/extension of the system.

Its great in the rear axle of a hot rod or something, where ground clearance isn't much of a concern and having the axle walk sideways when you hit a speedbump is a really bad thing. But IMHO its too many parts/too much complexity for a wheeler.

You're missing the point of a Watts link. It DOES NOT replace the draglink. It replaces the panhard bar.



The panhard bar needs a frame mount and an axle mount, 2 joints, and 1 bar.

The Watts link needs a frame mount for both frame ends, a bellcrank pivot on the axle, the bellcrank itself, 4 joints, and 2 bars (or the link end mounts on the axle and the bellcrank pivot on a drop bracket on the frame as shown in the image I "borrowed").

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Old 05-19-2011, 12:17 PM   #11 (permalink)
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not missing the point, idea is not to use a drag link, but use the watts type linkage instead
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:19 PM   #12 (permalink)
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nice they are in alabama, not to far from myself i can go by and pick there brain. i like your idea of using the fj box. im going to be using a fj80 front on my 1gen runner. the idea of using a watts type link instead of a drag link. the principle in theory would be instead of one end being tied in to the axle and the other end to the frame, one end would be tied in to the steering arm on the knuckle and the other end to the steering box. also, say the steering arm on the knuckle from the steering axis inclination to the centerline of tie rod end is 6 inches, the pitman arm from the center line on the box to the center line of the tierod end is 6 inches. the cantilever on the watts would 3 holes, 6 inches from 1 to 2, and 6 inches from 2 to 3, giving equal "rod length" so there is no undo forces or action to hinder the purpose of using that system
The problem is that your pivots will not be in line with where the suspension is pivoting and that is what will give you bump steer through the travel. When you switch it to a push pull style steering you can match the pivot points with where the pivots are on the suspension (not the actual link mounts but the arc that the axle actually swings on) making it so there would be no bump steer. But there will be a lot of figuring out to do because on a double triangulated 4 link the axle swings on an arc that isn't one of the links. The pivots for the steering will have to be out in space somewhere in between the link mounts. I was going to model it in solidworks, then mock it up, then play with it and then build my final setup. I am sure it will take quite a bit of adjusting before I get all my travel with no bump steer. Really unless you are trying to go fast in the desert, building a stock mod class KOH rig (where you have to keep a stock steering box), or are crazy like me then its probably best to go full hydro or put a panhard on it.
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:25 PM   #13 (permalink)
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hmm ill think about some more and get back to yah i like how you think. my problem with full hydralic steering as the same with straight air struts. there is not a mechanical support in the event of a hydra/air leak.
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Old 05-19-2011, 01:17 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Are you planning on driving this thing on the road? If not go full hydro. And I think full hydro steering is much less scary than what youre trying to achieve on the front axle of this thing...
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Old 05-19-2011, 01:26 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Looks like it would not be worth it. How would u use that to get rid of a draglink? Panhard yes but draglink will stll be needed unless full hydro
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Old 05-19-2011, 01:45 PM   #16 (permalink)
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would like some input. the question is dealing with a tri 4 link up front with a drag link, panhard rod, and bump steer. how about use a modified watts linkage instead of the the drag link, assuming that the box will steer in direction needed, meaning moving it forward or backward and turning the pitman are 180 degrees. this is assuming any modifications needed. looking for a theory on why it would or would not work, open to ideas, suggestions.
I was able to squeeze in a double tri-angulated 4 link in on my 87 4runner. I am using trail gear full hydro. I have more pics if you'd like.
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Old 05-19-2011, 02:16 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I was able to squeeze in a double tri-angulated 4 link in on my 87 4runner. I am using trail gear full hydro. I have more pics if you'd like.
thats a single triag'd 4 link
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Old 05-19-2011, 02:32 PM   #18 (permalink)
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im not understanding what the fuck youre saying....

you want to change the drag link (the bar looking thingy that conects to the steering arms) or the panhard bar ( the bar looking thingy that locates the axle looking thingy)???? get your damn terms right.


watts links are pretty cool, i wouldnt mind seeing a build with one.... but i dont know how much travel you could get with them since i havent experimented with them, also it would be kind of a bitch to make one fit on the front of a full bodied truck

further more... if you have a double triangulated suspension there is no need for either... the design of the suspension itself keeps the axle centered......if you put a panhard on it you would have major bind and complete failure of something....
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Old 05-19-2011, 03:15 PM   #19 (permalink)
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badmoonrising,to make sure i understand, who are you talking to?

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Old 05-19-2011, 03:48 PM   #20 (permalink)
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further more... if you have a double triangulated suspension there is no need for either... the design of the suspension itself keeps the axle centered......if you put a panhard on it you would have major bind and complete failure of something....
Exactly this.
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Old 05-19-2011, 04:36 PM   #21 (permalink)
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its not to center the axle, but keep the wheels straight with the center line of the truck when the axle goes though its cycle. if it will help ill draw it out to try to explain

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Old 05-19-2011, 05:13 PM   #22 (permalink)
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yea draw it out and post up. cause so far everything youve explained that want to do is either un-needed or you have no clue on what your talking about or how suspension/steering works
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Old 05-19-2011, 05:52 PM   #23 (permalink)
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locost7 I get what you are trying to do just I think when you start to draw things out you will see what I was saying about the pivots not being in the right spot and having bump steer. Everyone is just getting hung up on the fact that you used watts link to describe the layout of what you were thinking of doing. But I would also like to see what drawings you come up with as I might have missed something in my design. Anything to make my setup more simple would be great.

Edit: I should say the arc of your suspension and the arc of your steering won't be right and that will cause the bump steer.
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Old 05-19-2011, 06:32 PM   #24 (permalink)
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badmoonrising,to make sure i understand, who are you talking to?
You
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Old 05-19-2011, 06:38 PM   #25 (permalink)
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thats cool, ill draw it up and try to figure how to upload it up here. if i had the time, i would actually use a rack and pinion from a 470 or a tundra, mount it directly to the axle and figure ackerman based on my own wheel base and fab up a slip shaft for the steering shaft taking into account how much travel there is, being hydro assist with a mechanical direct connect, but ill talk about one thing at a time.
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