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Old 03-17-2012, 11:00 PM   #26 (permalink)
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The only thing that really matters is HDR is going on.


No.

What matters is that all the BULLSHIT in-fighting needs to stop.

We are on the verge of only having about 1% of the SoCal desert being open to wheeled motorized recreation, and we got people in out orgs trying to take credit for whatever, fighting over who is going to lose the next land-use battle, fighting for exposure and credit...

If that keeps going on, your kids will not have a HDR. THATS what matters.

I am getting sick of it, and so are a lot of other people. And i am not even in the Cal4 loop to even hear it all..

Don't get me wrong, we NEED Cal4 and I will support that org to the end..but someone needs to step up, lay down the law and SAVE MY FAWKIN ACCESS.
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Old 03-17-2012, 11:20 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Well, I certainly hope all those Central and North guys come down their event.
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Old 03-17-2012, 11:54 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I Have never posted on the forum before, but I have monitored it for several years. First I would like to address the membership questions, Club members,between the N.and S. there is a 4 member difference between the districts, with the S having the extra 4. Individual members there is approximately a 27% diff with the higher number in the N. Overall members there is approximately a 18% difference with the N. having the highest numbers.

Next I would like to address the Idea that the blame is this our association president Mark Cave. and I will address this to thubub, what would you do if you were in his place. would you just let the event collapse, or would you try to save it which is the direction he choose. If you answer that honestly then you have to come to the same conclusion. The event was cancelled by the south board. Where do you get your info because I can tell just by your posting that you have not been involved. OTR has been for years, Eric brougham out the teeter totor last year after the same thing happened at HDR. Unless changed I don't believe that Blue Ribbon Has standing in Ca and therefore we have an ongoing partisanship with BRC they use our leagle team Are you also aware that the bulk of all money that CA4WDC spends on land use issues in spent here in the south district. Don't respond to messages that you get unless you find out if there is truth in the message. Instead of complaining about the association come out and help us put this event on. My wife and I will be co chairing with Steve and helping to make HDR a success again this year. If you have any question on HDR send me a PM, but remember this the south district had over 6 months to get a chair for this event.

Dave Henry
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Old 03-18-2012, 12:01 AM   #29 (permalink)
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You will have to excuse the misspelling in my previous posts, it should read Eric brought, and it should read unless things have changed Sorry I think faster than I type. If you want to ask any question send a PM I usually don't get on until at night unless I get a call telling to look at some site.
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:07 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I personally don't think, based on the meetings that I have attended and the emails from the board meetings that Mark Cave has done anything that was not in the best interest of the organization. He has tried to ensure that there can be no legal issues with the way Cal4Wheel is run.

There have been many facets to this struggle and I know that I don't know all the details. And I am sure that very few do. Especially here on pirate.

Last year’s HDR
Raffle Vehicle
Releasing privileged information and opinion as facts.
Personalities being counterproductive to the point of not getting volunteers.

So many issues. And the leadership challenge that this presents is a daunting one. Because no matter what you do, someone will disagree, hate, and publicly make you look bad just because they can. And all without any facts. Nobody is perfect and we are all volunteers.
Which has happened.
The rules for BLM is that the permit has to be in 180 days prior to the event. Doesn't seem that anybody in the South put in for the permit in the correct time frame. Check if you like. Why didn't they? I won't spread my assumptions here.

The bottom line is this. This is a volunteer organization that serves a very important need in our community. Breaking it up does nothing but make us all weaker. If you don’t like how it is run, volunteer and change it. But throwing rocks from the cheap seats is just juvenile and immature. Someone doesn’t want to play ball your way so you want to take your bat and ball and go home.
Stop your BS and step up. Correct the injustices within the org the correct productive way. Or, continue to be a chair born troll like several others in the land use forum. They are easy to find. Just look for anyone not being part of the solution. If they open their mouth and it isn’t part of the solution, they are part of the problem.
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Old 03-18-2012, 12:13 PM   #31 (permalink)
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In the take away of HDR from the south dist Mark has not considered what is best for cal4wheel. After his lies and backroom dealings from last year there are many in the south that don't trust him. It now seems like he is trying to destroy the south dist. This is leading to clubs boycoting HDR and probably not renewing membership in june. Is this his goal and how will he deal with the loss of money this will cause?
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Old 03-18-2012, 01:15 PM   #32 (permalink)
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In the take away of HDR from the south dist Mark has not considered what is best for cal4wheel. After his lies and backroom dealings from last year there are many in the south that don't trust him. It now seems like he is trying to destroy the south dist. This is leading to clubs boycoting HDR and probably not renewing membership in june. Is this his goal and how will he deal with the loss of money this will cause?
Please provide proof that he lied? If not, please quit being a troll.

Nobody took anything away from the South. But you will believe what you want to believe. Step up and be an active member in Cal4Wheel. Run for office.

Or just continue to sit back and complain about what you think you know, add your opinion, and be a troll.

Waiting for proof. No he said she said crap either. Proof or it didn't happen.
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Old 03-18-2012, 02:36 PM   #33 (permalink)
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If it was not lies, then was it a lie when he apologized in front of the south dist clubs last summer? Anything can be said behind a computer but face to face he did not deny what went on, he said he was sorry and it would all be dropped. To get proof you will have to gather all parties together and hash over everything again...don't see that hapening.
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Old 03-18-2012, 02:41 PM   #34 (permalink)
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You want proof, how about a personal phone call to me from Mr Cave. I had inquired about the issues with the Baker's and mark blasted the integrity of both Baker's, mind you mark didn't know me from adam, and he said some pretty insulting things, I guess that was in the best interest of C4WD!! I do plenty of volunteering were it counts, Adopt a Trail in SBNF. Having been the president of the 4x4 Freelanders for the past two years and a board member for the last 4, I have personally had enough of the BULLSHIT coming out of C4WD. If the Johnson Valley concern was happening in the Fresno area, mark and his boys would be all over it. Troll this
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Old 03-18-2012, 06:02 PM   #35 (permalink)
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No.

What matters is that all the BULLSHIT in-fighting needs to stop.

We are on the verge of only having about 1% of the SoCal desert being open to wheeled motorized recreation, and we got people in out orgs trying to take credit for whatever, fighting over who is going to lose the next land-use battle, fighting for exposure and credit...

If that keeps going on, your kids will not have a HDR. THATS what matters.

I am getting sick of it, and so are a lot of other people. And i am not even in the Cal4 loop to even hear it all..

Don't get me wrong, we NEED Cal4 and I will support that org to the end..but someone needs to step up, lay down the law and SAVE MY FAWKIN ACCESS.
I agree Kirt, there are big access issues in Southern California along with Johnson Valley that need our attention and funds. HDR is a fund raising event that must go on to fund the fight tho keep lands open. I would hope that people remember that membership and events are how we fund the fight for public land, canceled events don't raise any funds that we so desperately need. Also thanks to others that have made positive comments.
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Old 03-18-2012, 06:19 PM   #36 (permalink)
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The bottom line is this. This is a volunteer organization that serves a very important need in our community. Breaking it up does nothing but make us all weaker. If you don’t like how it is run, volunteer and change it. But throwing rocks from the cheap seats is just juvenile and immature. Someone doesn’t want to play ball your way so you want to take your bat and ball and go home.
Stop your BS and step up. Correct the injustices within the org the correct productive way. Or, continue to be a chair born troll like several others in the land use forum. They are easy to find. Just look for anyone not being part of the solution. If they open their mouth and it isn’t part of the solution, they are part of the problem.
Very well said.

Bottom line, if you don't like what is going on, volunteer and fix what you think needs fixing. If not, STFU.

It is the same as bitching about President Obama, but you didn't vote because you aren't a registered voter.
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Old 03-18-2012, 07:40 PM   #37 (permalink)
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First off there was a permit, only needed to be picked up, Second granted we volunteered the same day (in the evening) and even Cal4 posted that we were the Chairs for the event, (till once again they deleted the posts of certain members), then was the so called Meeting to ratify (in reality only to remove the South, see above for the voting) and if this was a closed meeting why was Val Henry (Currently not a board member) allowed to attend but not Helen Baker or Terry Work?
As for the statement about they (Cal4) not feeling that HDR was goin to be taken seriously..... Come on now this is our are and we want to keep our lands open, all this move by CAL4 has done is show that they have no respect for the south, and by taking HDR away from being a Southern lead event they has once again shown there disrepect for Southern membership. And saying that there were Nasty comments that caused the orginal posts on HDR to be removed, get real, about all that was said was that there was no freedom of speach on the Cal4 site, which once again they have showed!

The Cal4 Board did not have the nerve to speak to anyone that volunteered for the HDR event so how do they know what we had for plans? They just wanted the south (as in certain people out)

No lie Just Fact
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:02 PM   #38 (permalink)
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and some thing else it was asked for Proof, ask any of the Club Presidents that has had conversations either in email or on the phone on how he has spoken about the Bakers, and clubs, you would be hard pressed get the same story twice, it has become clear that this is a vendetta, and move to ailinate the membership in the south. Did you Notice that Mark hired a parlimintary consultant to help him from putting his foot in his mouth!.
Cal4 needs to work together for OHV/Landuse, not building someone little empire and ego. this has been stated at the South District meeting at which Mr Cave stated, he would aplogize to the membership in email, InGear and on the Cal4 for his actions during the year (he did not). Now there is this clouded attempt by the current State BOD, to coverup.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:04 PM   #39 (permalink)
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First off there was a permit, only needed to be picked up, Second granted we volunteered the same day (in the evening) and even Cal4 posted that we were the Chairs for the event, (till once again they deleted the posts of certain members), then was the so called Meeting to ratify (in reality only to remove the South, see above for the voting) and if this was a closed meeting why was Val Henry (Currently not a board member) allowed to attend but not Helen Baker or Terry Work?
As for the statement about they (Cal4) not feeling that HDR was goin to be taken seriously..... Come on now this is our are and we want to keep our lands open, all this move by CAL4 has done is show that they have no respect for the south, and by taking HDR away from being a Southern lead event they has once again shown there disrepect for Southern membership. And saying that there were Nasty comments that caused the orginal posts on HDR to be removed, get real, about all that was said was that there was no freedom of speach on the Cal4 site, which once again they have showed!

The Cal4 Board did not have the nerve to speak to anyone that volunteered for the HDR event so how do they know what we had for plans? They just wanted the south (as in certain people out)

No lie Just Fact
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:26 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Johnson Valley is in their back yard so to speak, In fact it's in everyone back yard or at the very least it there mind. Tom who do you think has been representing you in Johnson Valley? And Who has been representing you in the SBNF where you say you volunteer? When was the last time you volunteered to work a CA4WDC event? Access to public lands has diminished from 4.7 million acres in 1976 to 2.47 million acres today(courtsy of NPLnews) How much more land do you think we would have lost if not for organizations like CA4WDC and volunteers like Mark and Steve and countless other unnamed persons that donate their time to make this association work and be so successful. We still have a few jobs available for HDR or would you just rather complain the choice is yours.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:01 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I agree Kirt, there are big access issues in Southern California along with Johnson Valley that need our attention and funds. HDR is a fund raising event that must go on to fund the fight tho keep lands open. I would hope that people remember that membership and events are how we fund the fight for public land, canceled events don't raise any funds that we so desperately need. Also thanks to others that have made positive comments.
talking about funds and fundraising. how much money was raised at koh, for the save jv. is there a number? what amount from gate and how about passing the hat, which i know i was at 3 at koh and even 1 at tds raffle. i wheel at jv quite a bit and try giving what i can to help keep it open. just saying, how much monies have been donated and exactly where do these monies go? all i ever hear is lawyers and lobbyist. pretty broad statement.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:56 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Terry, there was no permit. It had never been filed (due in December 2011). Val filled out the permit application and hand carried to the BLM. And was requested to be on the call in case questions were to arise regarding the permit, she has no vote and it was a recall of the environmental affairs call which are open to all. We were told that another permit application had been requested. And the fact that the south district cancelled the event had nothing to do with who was ratified for the chair of HDR? You knew that HDR was coming up and you and your club have put on a game for some time and you and Helen had a minimum of 6 months to step up. Only when someone else stepped up did you develop the interest in putting on the event. The board doesn't normally speak to the nominated chair unless they attend a BOD meeting. you were being represented by the South District BOD. They obviously decided that Steve was a better choice and has more experience in chairing CA4WDC events (never mind he volunteered before you stepped up). If there is disrespect for the south district, then why is the most money spent on land use issues down here? HDR, as all CA4WDC events are STATE events. They are held in different areas but the MONEY all goes into the same general fund. "You say it is our area and you want to keep our lands open" Then why did you refuse to help out with the event when I contacted you? Does this mean that you only want to keep your lands open if you are in charge? As you say facts don't lie!!!
If you are interested in being part of HDR, we welcome you and any others to come to the planning meeting. We will notify you of time and place (around the first of the month). We welcome all volunteers. We would like to hear your ideas and are very willing to incorporate all ideas. This event is a fund raiser for Cal 4 Wheel and everyone involved wish it to succeed.
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:25 PM   #43 (permalink)
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The CA4WDC Board dosn't have a problem with its South District members. It has a problem with a few of its members who are not acting in the best interest of CA4WDC.

High Desert Round up is a great event and we encourage all members of
CA4WDC to come together and help us put on a great event.

Between the new Desert Bill and Travel management we are on the verge of a major loss in areas we recreate. We need to work togather. Remember that old saying " United we stand, divided we fall"

bottom line is... we need pull heads out of our asses and get back to work.
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:36 PM   #44 (permalink)
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In the best interest of cal4, steve, why didn't you agree to help terry instead of voting him out and voting yourself in?
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Old 03-19-2012, 10:44 PM   #45 (permalink)
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At the very least Steve, it would have been proper procedure to have abstained from both votes.
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Old 03-20-2012, 08:02 AM   #46 (permalink)
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I think the better question is why wasn't there a permit applied for in compliance with the BLM rules of 180 days prior to the event. You all want to blame Steve for stepping up, yet you all keep overlooking the fact that the leadership in the South did not have anyone lined up for the job to lead HDR, nor was thinking about it to even apply for the permit. Where was the leadership in Nov-Dec? Show me the meeting minutes where it was discussed prior to the 180 day requirement?

But I guess you will blame others for that too. Where was the South leadership then? You know, when it was supposed to be there? Oh wait. They were there, just not doing anything about it. Maybe they didn't want to do anything about it, silence is consent.
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Old 03-20-2012, 11:01 AM   #47 (permalink)
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This is a volunteer organization, and with that, keeping the volunteers happy and satisfied is paramount. Bob Reed drove me away years ago, and I still stay away. I'll go to events if I feel like it, but my "volunteer days" are over.

I like Harry and Helen personally, and credit them for amazing amounts of work to benefit the cause of land use, desert management, the Goffs Schoolhouse, OHV safety training, and who knows what additional efforts we never see.... So, based upon that, an attempt to cut them out of CA4WDC needs more of an explanation than this he-said-she-said crap we are getting from the BOD. Maybe the BOD is right, maybe not, but by alienating the South District clubs with no understanding and no representation, the division is only helping the antis. Our Association President is making it worse, not better.

I suggest that Mark Cave put up, or shut up. If he can't fix this, now, he needs to step down. Please note that I am not blaming Mark, I know he puts a lot into the Association, but this happened on his watch, his name is closely connected to it, and the only way to clear the air may be for him to leave, so maybe we can move on with a clean slate. If he doesn't want to step down, man up and fix it!

But don't count on me for HDR, sorry....
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:29 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Got popcorn?
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:07 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it.....

We've done this before. We've had ups and downs, ins and outs. There have been major screwups and damage control afterwards. Each time we ended up not paying attention to the real issues. Think 1994, S21 and the major mistakes made there. We trusted Fiendstien, and we trusted CA4WDC. Both were mistakes, and we lost a lot of dez, and a lot of potential club members.

Then Surprise Canyon was closed, and CA4WDC again sat on their hands and whined about not having a nice building to impress people. HUH? Surprise Canyon is still closed. The non-association clubs and groups did way more than CA4WDC to try to stop it - Tinbenders is one club that comes to mind as antithesis to CA4WDC; active wheelers that "do", not "say".

If CA4WDC is to survive, they need to change; what worked 50 years ago isn't what will work today.

I wonder how long it will take Mark to call me...
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:01 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I wonder how long it will take Mark to call me...
You're kidding right?????

Cal 4 bod members don't read/post on Pirate.

ROTFLMAO

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