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Old 12-07-2009, 12:04 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Working Group on Excessively Raised Vehicles

From the Sask Needs Help thread I came across some information that there is a national Working Group from the Canadian Council of Motor Transport Administrators studying the "excessively raised vehicle" issue. Through the CCMTA website I came across this newsletter and found the name of the Chair of the working group, Daniel Filiatrault from ICBC. I sent him an e-mail and am posting that as well as his reply.



Quote:
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:05 PM
To: Filiatrault, Daniel
Subject: Working Group on Excessively Raised Vehicles

Hello Daniel,

I was reading that you are the Chair of the Working Group on Excessively
Raised Vehicles for the CCMTA. As a concerned stakeholder I am wondering
if there is any avenue for public input on the issue and if there was a
way to see the minutes of these meetings.

Thank you,

Paul Gagnon
Sherwood Park, Alberta


Quote:
Sent: Monday, December 7, 2009 10:32 AM

Dear Mr. Gagnon:

A technical working group has been assembled by the Canadian Council of
Motor Transport Administrators ("the CCMTA working group") to examine
the safety issues associated with excessively raised vehicles. It is
anticipated that the scope of the work will involve preparing a best
practice document before the CCMTA Annual Meeting in May 2010. The CCMTA
working group intends to make arrangements to obtain feedback from
stakeholders should a draft version of the document be prepared by March
2010. In the interim, the CCMTA working group welcomes input from all
stakeholders with an interest in highway safety. As such I would
encourage you to provide a written summary of concerns that you as a
vehicle owner and/or member affiliated with a 4x4 club may have which
could be considered by the CCMTA working group in developing a best
practice document.

Thank you for taking an interest in the CCMTA working group.

Daniel Filiatrault, Chair
Excessively Raised Vehicle Technical Working Group
Canadian Council of Motor Transport Administrators

As I mentioned in one of the other threads about the proposed Saskatchewan legislation, the main issue I have is with the seemingly arbitrary selection of a single tire size, regardless of the vehicle it is being installed on, as the de facto defining characteristic. The rest of the legislation seems reasonable.

I think we should discuss what the our concerns are before passing them along to the along to the working group.
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Old 12-07-2009, 07:48 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Thank you Paul.
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Old 12-30-2009, 08:52 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Thank you Paul.
thanks for the info!
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Old 12-30-2009, 09:23 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Good info!!
I know Quebec has a tire size limit (35" max). Ill have to look into a lifting limit next week.
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Old 12-30-2009, 09:37 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by -Logan- View Post
Good info!!
I know Quebec has a tire size limit (35" max). Ill have to look into a lifting limit next week.
oh wow ill have to use my 35's when i go east to visit family thanks!
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Old 12-30-2009, 09:57 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Now, thats what ive been told by a few people. One guy got a ticket for illigal tires. Ill look more into it after the weekend. Ill also see on Ontario has any laws on this.
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:39 PM   #7 (permalink)
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yeah thats great thanks I have to check all the provincial laws before i make my cross Canada trip next xmas when i am done my build.
I cant wait to go try the trails in LaRose forest in the summer.
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Old 12-31-2009, 03:14 PM   #8 (permalink)
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yeah thats great thanks I have to check all the provincial laws before i make my cross Canada trip next xmas when i am done my build.
I cant wait to go try the trails in LaRose forest in the summer.
LaRose forest here in Ontario??? I was told it was closed to everything except 4 wheelers.
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Old 12-31-2009, 06:51 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Talking

That could be its has been years since i was out there!
I useto also ride in limerick forest near north augusta.
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Old 12-31-2009, 07:57 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Ya... bunch of idiots kept terring it up with trucks and dirt bikes. Sucks for the local clubs that try and keep the trails in good shape! I just started going on bigger trails around here. I joined a local off road club when I bought my ZR2. Hopefully this summer ill be going to North agusta, and if im ready, possibly compete for fun.
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Old 12-31-2009, 09:52 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by -Logan- View Post
Ya... bunch of idiots kept terring it up with trucks and dirt bikes. Sucks for the local clubs that try and keep the trails in good shape! I just started going on bigger trails around here. I joined a local off road club when I bought my ZR2. Hopefully this summer ill be going to North agusta, and if im ready, possibly compete for fun.
Have you ever been to hellsgate? near kemptville?
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Old 12-31-2009, 10:58 PM   #12 (permalink)
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LaRose forest here in Ontario??? I was told it was closed to everything except 4 wheelers.

Yeah, and if you go there with a 4 wheeler the trail cops stop you twice an hour for permit and vehicle checks. It's become beyond ridiculous.

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Old 12-31-2009, 11:02 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by -Logan- View Post
Good info!!
I know Quebec has a tire size limit (35" max). Ill have to look into a lifting limit next week.
You also need to have your fenders cover your tires, if I heard right. Something else to keep in mind.
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Old 12-31-2009, 11:06 PM   #14 (permalink)
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BTW, thanks Paul. We'll get our local club on board (some of them are on here too).

Last edited by Tigerchief; 12-31-2009 at 11:17 PM. Reason: speeling
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Old 01-01-2010, 01:38 AM   #15 (permalink)
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BTW, thanks Paul. We'll get our local club on board (some of them are on here too).
I haven t been out there in years I guess things have changed!

thats why i have been riding in bc even a lot of place in Alberta here are tightening up the regs because of careless people in the rockies...prime example McClean creak and Waiparous. mind you Its been 4 years or so since ive rode there

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Old 01-01-2010, 03:17 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Guys, if someone wants to start a thread about current regulations across the country please feel free to do so but I'd like to keep this thread focussed on the Working Group on Excessively Raised Vehicles and discussion about what it means for the future and how we can make our voices heard.

Thanks
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:17 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Unfortunately, you can say whatever you want on the Pirate 4x4, even if it isnt true. There is no tire size limit in Quebec. There is a regulation about ’’mechanical lift’’ (Suspension or body lift) which uses a complicated formula based on wheel base,stock tire size and stock ride height. there is also a regulation about ’’Pneumatic lift’’ which uses a calculation based on wheel base and stock tires size. Tires must not contact the bodywork or chassis of a vehicule. You also cannot legally cut or weld a vehicules chassis in Quebec (drilling holes is frowned upon but accepted), which means you are pretty limited in terms of suspension mods. these decisions are made by the Societe d’Assurance Automobile du Quebec. They dont care about what the
truck-jacking, import-tuning taxpayers, want their decisions are made by engineers that work for a government run insurance company. If you want to start modifying a vehicule you had better start by talking to an inspector to see what is acceptable, either listen to what he says or buy a trailer and tow rig. As well, your insurance company probably wont pay if you have an accident with a modified vehicule, and you can be held criminally and civilly responsible for negligence if some is injured or dies because of a vehicule modification.

This Working Group on Excessive Raised Vehicules is eventually just gonna tell you to get a trailer and tow rig for your Too Tall Big Boy Toy.

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Old 01-06-2010, 11:59 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlueToy View Post
Unfortunately, you can say whatever you want on the Pirate 4x4, even if it isnt true. There is no tire size limit in Quebec. There is a regulation about ’’mechanical lift’’ (Suspension or body lift) which uses a complicated formula based on wheel base,stock tire size and stock ride height. there is also a regulation about ’’Pneumatic lift’’ which uses a calculation based on wheel base and stock tires size. Tires must not contact the bodywork or chassis of a vehicule. You also cannot legally cut or weld a vehicules chassis in Quebec (drilling holes is frowned upon but accepted), which means you are pretty limited in terms of suspension mods. these decisions are made by the Societe d’Assurance Automobile du Quebec. They dont care about what the
truck-jacking, import-tuning taxpayers, want their decisions are made by engineers that work for a government run insurance company. If you want to start modifying a vehicule you had better start by talking to an inspector to see what is acceptable, either listen to what he says or buy a trailer and tow rig. As well, your insurance company probably wont pay if you have an accident with a modified vehicule, and you can be held criminally and civilly responsible for negligence if some is injured or dies because of a vehicule modification.

This Working Group on Excessive Raised Vehicules is eventually just gonna tell you to get a trailer and tow rig for your Too Tall Big Boy Toy.
I don't know why you are angry but the Working Group on Excessively Raised Vehicles wants to hear from us. This thread was started to create a discussion on the topic. Nobody is trying to get them to allow unsafe vehicles on the road but as stakeholders I thought that some of you might want to have some input.
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Old 01-06-2010, 02:44 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I am not angry, I am just being realistic. Once the concerned government agencies decide to crack down on suspension lifts and big rubber (and they will, eventually) we will all have a bunch of trailer queens that we cant even drive anywhere because they will be illegal on road and there will be nowhere left to go 4 wheeling after the Land management agencies have closed all the trails. Remember when you where a kid and you rode around in the box of your dad’s pickup and rode your bike without a helmet and all that good old fashion fun thats now illegal. The good old days are soon becoming a thing of the past.

It is now impossible to plate an imported RHD vehicule in Quebec. Why? Because it became popular, just like lifted trucks are becoming popular.
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Old 01-06-2010, 02:52 PM   #20 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=BigBlueToy;10829566]I am not angry, I am just being realistic. Once the concerned government agencies decide to crack down on suspension lifts and big rubber (and they will, eventually) we will all have a bunch of trailer queens that we cant even drive anywhere because they will be illegal on road and there will be nowhere left to go 4 wheeling after the Land management agencies have closed all the trails. Remember when you where a kid and you rode around in the box of your dad’s pickup and rode your bike without a helmet and all that good old fashion fun thats now illegal. The good old days are soon becoming a thing of the past.

This negative attitude is why this country is going the way it is ... remember when Ontario tried the photo radar cams in the last decade? people did not stand for it and it was booted out... why can't people stand up for what they believe in like this? there are lots of people using trails all over Canada if we all let our voices be heard, we can make a difference and keep the areas we love within reason.
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Old 01-06-2010, 06:29 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlueToy View Post
I am not angry, I am just being realistic. Once the concerned government agencies decide to crack down on suspension lifts and big rubber (and they will, eventually) we will all have a bunch of trailer queens that we cant even drive anywhere because they will be illegal on road and there will be nowhere left to go 4 wheeling after the Land management agencies have closed all the trails. Remember when you where a kid and you rode around in the box of your dad’s pickup and rode your bike without a helmet and all that good old fashion fun thats now illegal. The good old days are soon becoming a thing of the past.

It is now impossible to plate an imported RHD vehicule in Quebec. Why? Because it became popular, just like lifted trucks are becoming popular.
I hear you but I think that we should take this opportunity to make sure that the transportation administrators in this country know that we want to be heard.

When I built my truck I looked at all of the regulations and built it so it would comply. I have no problem with that and I'm sure the majority of people who are serious about wheelin' feel the same. At the same time I do not agree with arbitrary setting of standards like the proposed Saskatchewan legislation was effectively trying to do.

We need to make our voices heard, and not in a knee jerk fashion.

The reason I wanted to have a discussion here is so that people can come and read what ideas others have before they craft their letter. I say craft on purpose. We need to be sensible, articulate and reasonable when we address these people. Short, crass, incomplete or unreasonable letters will not be taken seriously but a well thought out letter will be.

I know it seems like the weight of the government is more than we can fend off but I haven't given up yet and will be sending in my letter soon (which will expand on the letter that I wrote to Sask). I hope all of you don't give up either. There is strength in numbers.
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Old 01-06-2010, 06:59 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Paul Gagnon View Post
I hear you but I think that we should take this opportunity to make sure that the transportation administrators in this country know that we want to be heard.

When I built my truck I looked at all of the regulations and built it so it would comply. I have no problem with that and I'm sure the majority of people who are serious about wheelin' feel the same. At the same time I do not agree with arbitrary setting of standards like the proposed Saskatchewan legislation was effectively trying to do.

We need to make our voices heard, and not in a knee jerk fashion.

The reason I wanted to have a discussion here is so that people can come and read what ideas others have before they craft their letter. I say craft on purpose. We need to be sensible, articulate and reasonable when we address these people. Short, crass, incomplete or unreasonable letters will not be taken seriously but a well thought out letter will be.

I know it seems like the weight of the government is more than we can fend off but I haven't given up yet and will be sending in my letter soon (which will expand on the letter that I wrote to Sask). I hope all of you don't give up either. There is strength in numbers.
I realize this is more of a provincial issue but do you guys think we could go anywhere by bringing this to be a federal issue?
By doing this we could try to make this a country wide heritage activity?
Was this country not founded by explorers and people who enjoy the great outdoors ?
Do we not want to be able to explore and enjoy (within reason) what Canada has to offer?
Not all of us like and or are able to go hike for days to find the beauty of Canada's rocky mountain foothills.
This needs to be brought up in my opinion...

Even if we toughen up the trail laws for going off trails and so forth we can do this if people would just speak up!

So tying this to lifted trucks is easy we build em to be safe for the road so they are safe for the trail. So we don't get hurt nor hurt anybody wherever we are.
On a side note Mud flaps are for the road use em !
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Old 01-06-2010, 08:31 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramtracker View Post
I realize this is more of a provincial issue but do you guys think we could go anywhere by bringing this to be a federal issue?
By doing this we could try to make this a country wide heritage activity?
Was this country not founded by explorers and people who enjoy the great outdoors ?
Do we not want to be able to explore and enjoy (within reason) what Canada has to offer?
Not all of us like and or are able to go hike for days to find the beauty of Canada's rocky mountain foothills.
This needs to be brought up in my opinion...

Even if we toughen up the trail laws for going off trails and so forth we can do this if people would just speak up!

So tying this to lifted trucks is easy we build em to be safe for the road so they are safe for the trail. So we don't get hurt nor hurt anybody wherever we are.
On a side note Mud flaps are for the road use em !
If you read the first post, this is now a federal issue. Yes the regulations are administered provincially but the provinces are collaborating to come up with common regulations.
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Old 01-06-2010, 09:39 PM   #24 (permalink)
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If you read the first post, this is now a federal issue. Yes the regulations are administered provincially but the provinces are collaborating to come up with common regulations.
Oh ok I missed that Thanks Paul.
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Old 01-07-2010, 08:06 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Good to see some familiar faces on this board too.

The more this subject is talked about, the better the outcome fo us as wheelers. A lot of us in Saskatchewan have the luxury of being able to wheel on private land, but who really wants to trailer their junk there?
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