Independent Suspension using 14 Bolt F/R.. Will it Work?? - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
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Old 12-22-2017, 09:38 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Independent Axles using 14 Bolts F/R.. Will it Work??

Anyone ever tried building a 14 Bolt Independent suspension setup?





















Last edited by crcarson26; 12-22-2017 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 12-22-2017, 10:31 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Nice.

Best of Luck,

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Old 12-22-2017, 10:43 AM   #3 (permalink)
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That looks enticing. The key to going fast with articulation is a narrow center. The current go-to is the 9/10" Ford which puts the flanges about 14.5" apart. It is possible to reduce that to 13.5" with a little work and special parts. I am not sure where you will wind up??

For a number of years I used the Aluminum Model44 Corvette center which is machined similar to where you are going. The outer bearing is a wide roller bearing. I let the stub shaft plunge in that and the locker/differential. The plunge is about 1/4" and never had an issue with 3 builds. The center did not take any of the suspension load as per stock Corvette. That made it work. Flange to flange is about 17". Today, I am using a Quick Change and 7" Flange to flange and brings an easy 24" articulation.

I believe a couple make centers along the same lines as the 14 bolt, but not common in rigs as they are so wide.

I am currently building an IFS/IRS car but today I wouldn't go IRS without A-arms. It takes a lot of work with suspension geometry to keep the tire square or negative camber to the ground with our large amounts of body roll. Same with IFS... Unless you want to go fast, want precise steering, and a good skidding vehicle. All of that works best with a narrow center, and to allow turning and articulation. If 8-10 inches articulation is OK. You will have something beefy that the CV's might not take...unless 30 series @$1k each.

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Old 12-22-2017, 11:18 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Nice work. Sub’d.
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Old 12-22-2017, 03:49 PM   #5 (permalink)
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That looks enticing. The key to going fast with articulation is a narrow center. The current go-to is the 9/10" Ford which puts the flanges about 14.5" apart. It is possible to reduce that to 13.5" with a little work and special parts. I am not sure where you will wind up??

For a number of years I used the Aluminum Model44 Corvette center which is machined similar to where you are going. The outer bearing is a wide roller bearing. I let the stub shaft plunge in that and the locker/differential. The plunge is about 1/4" and never had an issue with 3 builds. The center did not take any of the suspension load as per stock Corvette. That made it work. Flange to flange is about 17". Today, I am using a Quick Change and 7" Flange to flange and brings an easy 24" articulation.

I believe a couple make centers along the same lines as the 14 bolt, but not common in rigs as they are so wide.

I am currently building an IFS/IRS car but today I wouldn't go IRS without A-arms. It takes a lot of work with suspension geometry to keep the tire square or negative camber to the ground with our large amounts of body roll. Same with IFS... Unless you want to go fast, want precise steering, and a good skidding vehicle. All of that works best with a narrow center, and to allow turning and articulation. If 8-10 inches articulation is OK. You will have something beefy that the CV's might not take...unless 30 series @$1k each.

Yeah I know exactly what you mean. This build has been a long time coming including many years of research,reading, and design. Yes the 14 bolt is wide, but has great aftermarket support, super strong, and great mounting options for this route (without welding the casting). I am right @ 13" wide without stub shafts in place. I am going to spend the Holiday time off finishing up machining the bearing cups and retaining collars. I think I am just going to go a little wide on the A-Arms to help make-up for the wide diff housing.
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Old 12-22-2017, 04:31 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Looks good. What is the distance from the breather side machined surface to the pinion centerline?
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Old 12-22-2017, 05:12 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Looks good. What is the distance from the breather side machined surface to the pinion centerline?
Well its 13.0" end to end right now, so probably around 9-10". I can measure it when I'm at the shop and get back to you.
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Old 12-22-2017, 05:41 PM   #8 (permalink)
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So cool. Watching this, great idea with the durability of a 14B.
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Old 12-22-2017, 07:43 PM   #9 (permalink)
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"and great mounting options for this route (without welding the casting)."

Don't worry about welding to the casting, it welds easily and reliably. It is nodular cast iron, not grey cast iron like an engine block. Pre heat it to 300 F, and keep it warm with fiberglass blanket, and just mig or tig right to it with regular steel filler. If I was cool enough to post pics, I would put up some of my 14b axle build with almost 10 years of racing on it. Edit: maybe this will work:

https://www.race-dezert.com/forum/at...812-jpg.58916/
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Old 12-22-2017, 09:13 PM   #10 (permalink)
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"and great mounting options for this route (without welding the casting)."

Don't worry about welding to the casting, it welds easily and reliably. It is nodular cast iron, not grey cast iron like an engine block. Pre heat it to 300 F, and keep it warm with fiberglass blanket, and just mig or tig right to it with regular steel filler. If I was cool enough to post pics, I would put up some of my 14b axle build with almost 10 years of racing on it. Edit: maybe this will work:

https://www.race-dezert.com/forum/at...812-jpg.58916/
Wow that is a crazy truss system you built. Yes I have read about pre-heating prior to welding. Just makes me nervous welding so close to the main cap areas with the ears whacked off. I am just going to mount off the diff cover flange and pinion flange bolts. Plenty of beefy bolts to secure the housing with.
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Old 12-27-2017, 06:51 AM   #11 (permalink)
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thanks for sharing this project. Following.
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Old 12-27-2017, 11:36 AM   #12 (permalink)
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thanks for sharing this project. Following.
+1

This is awesome. I'm looking forward to watching it come together.
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Old 12-27-2017, 12:34 PM   #13 (permalink)
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are you planning on running pop in style stub shafts like a normal IFS diff or the bolt on bearing retainer like a semifloat axle? what bearings and seals are you planning on using? Very cool. I plan on doing something similar with a dana 44.
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Old 12-27-2017, 03:32 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I'll be keeping an eye on this. No interest in building my own independent stuff, but I'm sure it will be interesting.
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Old 12-28-2017, 10:13 AM   #15 (permalink)
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this is wicked.
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Old 12-28-2017, 12:35 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Heres someone that built a Dana 70 version on Instagram . Id ask the mods to move this to gen 4x4 it would get more traffic over there.
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Old 12-29-2017, 10:59 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I think I am just going to go a little wide on the A-Arms to help make-up for the wide diff housing.
It also took me some time to re-find this. Normally General 4x4. Read up on geometry for your A-arms. Not an easy deal to get everything to clear. The needs are pretty clear for the outer knuckle/upright, but it is the inside hinge points that generate the geometry for most everything.

There is almost nothing parallel in advanced mounts. That is due to worrying about correct CAMBER while articulating and turning. It only gets worse when you dial in body roll. (We use 10* body roll for IFS checking) Next step down is just slanting the A arms down in the back. You may think that the wheel is receding when hitting a rock. Yes, it does. The clue is to slant the top arm slightly more to initiate caster gain when hitting something which also adds camber when turning.

The shorter the arms, the harder it is going to be to get thing moving correctly. But if you are in the 10-12" articulation range, probably reasonable.

We also try to run big offset wheels (-5.5") to maximize arm length, but there are rim and boot clearance issues. A couple builders have gone to 20" wheels which really makes things happen good. The issue is getting the top upright mount to be as high as possible and clearing the rim and tire. You will see this when working the numbers.

I suggest moching up in wood to verify ideas. There are somoe more tricks in the threads in Gen 4x4. We have all learned a lot ...and still learning.

Cheers for pushing on! It would be easier to do a IRS first but I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't do much for you over a straight rear axle with double triangle links. (SXS have it because there is a motor in the way.)

The big no-no is letting the tire tuck under the chassis during articulation and turning. (For those just starting to consider independent)
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Old 12-30-2017, 12:41 AM   #18 (permalink)
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are you planning on running pop in style stub shafts like a normal IFS diff or the bolt on bearing retainer like a semifloat axle? what bearings and seals are you planning on using? Very cool. I plan on doing something similar with a dana 44.

I am going to machine a bearing retainer similar to the semi-float style OEM design. Currie also uses this design on their 9" independent housings and it works great. Great question on the bearings. The 14 bolt axle tube diameter does not match any common wheel bearing diameter that I can find. So, I am going to open up the diameter of the housing to 90mm on the CNC machine. This way I can run a very common size sealed wheel bearing made by all the big OEM's: Timken, Kaman, SKF, Aurora, etc.. For seals I am going with Crane Axle Threaded Spanner seal. They are a little pricey, but this way I can replace the seal with common parts house seals from Napa, Auto Zone, etc.
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Old 12-30-2017, 01:06 AM   #19 (permalink)
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are you planning on running pop in style stub shafts like a normal IFS diff or the bolt on bearing retainer like a semifloat axle? what bearings and seals are you planning on using? Very cool. I plan on doing something similar with a dana 44.
If you take a look at the first pic I posted behind the 14 bolts, there's a independent rear end out of a 60's Jag that uses a Dana 44 housing..
Future hot rod build!! Found it in a junk yard scrap vehicle last year.. They gave it to me for $100 as is.
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Old 12-30-2017, 07:02 AM   #20 (permalink)
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subbed to see what goes in to making an IFS
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:56 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Laprosonic built up the Starfighter several years ago (2010) The pirate post chronicled the trials and tribulations. He, and friends did finish the rig and ran it at KOH. It is beautiful and well thought out. Interesting was having to re-think the IFS after about half done. We all learned a lot fropm that effort, and started looking at the Built KOH rigs with more knowledge....or better yet...questions.

We certainly learned about SIZE of parts and consequences. Both in fabrication and racing.

Laprosonic had issues trying to get the qualifying run finished as I remember. He has since run it recreationally, having lots of fun. It is one thing to have something that bitchen and then almost recklessly smash it thru the rocks to qualify for doing more damage. KOH is a test but also a commitment.

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gener...ifs-build.html

This should help appreciating what is going down here........

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Old 01-02-2018, 06:02 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I wouldn't go IRS without A-arms. It takes a lot of work with suspension geometry... blah blah handing
Define "A-arms" IIRC there's some pics in the IRS thread where someone mounted the diff in the center of one A-arm and stuck a CV in the center of the chassis where the A arms meet. Sure you've got the A-arm handling rotational torque from the diff but any A-arm suitable for the kind of use we care about here shouldn't care about that. With a wide housing like a 14b I'd be looking to do something like that.

With a fullness truck wheelbase you won't notice a lot of geometry sins in the rear especially at the limits of travel. Just look at how much a typical OEM solid axles move around under stock suspension travel. Similar numbers at greater travel should handle fine. A tire that's near full droop won't be doing much good when it comes to directing the vehicle anyway, especially on the kinds of terrain where you'll have a tire at full droop.

Getting suspension geometry dialed in over a large amount of wheel travel is one those things where you spend 90% of your resources on the last 10%. If you're not racing to win then you should probably spend your resources elsewhere on the build.

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If 8-10 inches articulation is OK. You will have something beefy that the CV's might not take...unless 30 series @$1k each.
Obviously operating angles aver very much width dependent but I don't see why he couldn't use U joints. GM did it just fine in the Corvette. For the amount of plunge he'll need to handle and U-joint sizes he'll want it's possible that he can use of the shelf MDT or larger truck parts.


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There's a independent rear end out of a 60's Jag that uses a Dana 44 housing..
Future hot rod build!! Found it in a junk yard scrap vehicle last year.. They gave it to me for $100 as is.
Swapping a Jag IRS into things has been a thing for a very long time. As far as OEM IRS goes there's far better stuff available today. The Armada has a similar D44 based IRS but it's one of the weird D44 models with limited aftermarket options. The Ford 9.75 IRS is probably a better starting point for most builds at present.

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I am going to machine a bearing retainer similar to the semi-float style OEM design
You could press a bearing into a retainer and onto the flange/shaft like a 80-81 TTB center joint. Depending on the bearing you use you may be able to countersink it into the housing so that the overall width of the assembled housing is only increased by the width of the bolt flange on the retainer.
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Old 01-02-2018, 10:42 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Yeah I saw the rig you are referring to with the diff mounted to one of the A-Arms. It's definitely thinking outside the box but I am not convinced this is the way to go. I totally agree with you about the bearing retainers. I am going to tuck the bearings in as close as I can into the housing as to get as narrow as possible. And yes I am not going to use CV joints for this rig. RCV Quoted me over $11,000 for shafts/joints. I can put together some MDT components for much less.

The Jag rear end was just a fortunate find. Yes there are better rear ends available today, bot not at this price. The new mustang drop outs are 10x-15x more expensive than what I spent.
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Old 01-02-2018, 12:32 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Call Thom at Spidertrax or Julene at Summit Machine in Utah. They can easily make special billet stubs to fit a 935 or 30 series CV. Budget would be easily 1/2 of RCV including cv's. Julene made stubs for my 9" IFS center. I also paid for the longer spare with longer splines. If I broke the short one, I could cut the longer to fit....and order another without a rush commitment. At one time I also had Moser make stubs to fit a shortened model 44 center like yours. I would expect Currie to be set up for multiples so a remote option.
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Old 01-02-2018, 01:27 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Our first go at IRS was Corvette outers and a shortened D44 center with U joints in '66. It was used as a Drag Jeep. I bought it and started bending swing arms from HP and traction. I did break a stub shaft once as we just welded ends to a stock axle. . In that set-up we used driveshaft parts that slipped together for plunge. I am constantly tightening 5/8" flange bolts. And replacing Joints at 8" suspension (78" OoT).

About'80 I built two IRS for friends with the 80 Corvette D44 center and fabricated arms with the Corvette hub. In those I went with the stock stubs and let them plunge in the center bearings and Locker. No issue still. Did I already mention that? Works perfect and never changed seals either....But neither are mud boggers. Mainly sand and trail.

At speed, I wouldn't take a Ujoint above about 12* but the "rule" for CV's has been 22* and lately 24*. In Ultra4 IFS many are running 22* and then up to 45* for turning. The 22* rule seems to stem from Class1 cars that plunge up to 2" and probably where much of the heat comes from. They are definitely a maintenance PITA!!!

For arse-sideways: The 80ish Corvette alum center doesn't have any aftermarket help. I bored the mains to accept a standard Dana 44 locker. I used the outer roller bearings to align a thru rod. I put a lathe tool through it and bolt clamped. It took some diddling but I got it to the right boring diameter and used a 1/2" drill motor to spin it. Sketchy as hell but got three done without ER.

Edit since we are all thinking: The Armada IRS that I know about is Cody Wagoners. I am pretty sure the center is a $30k trick narrow Weismann with bull gears, but a model 44 might be enough strength for the portal hubs that are also being used. The Dune Masters club (SoCal) has been using Thunderbird IRS components with success also. They run BIG motors, but don't have the driveline shock loads like dirt offroad...and limited travel..

Lately I looked at the Mustang rear IRS because doing what I thought was easy...wasn't. What i saw in that system was a crutch link to prevent the arms from wrapping up like a dish rag when stopping. Their solution apparently works for them but wouldn't with our big heavy wheels and BIG brakes. I do know there are several aftermarket systems for the Mustang so maybe they saw the same issue ..or??? Some beefed the centers maybe with 10" gears? By then, I was not that interested. The a-arm positioning is very unique, but look for the unintended consequences of good forward bite.

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