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Old 06-25-2012, 12:19 AM   #151 (permalink)
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well no one has pitched in .. i know i wont really be getting it but i will be trying.. lexus 4.0 v8 .. few little things maybe 290 hp? but when i turbo it my motor will be able to get it and i want my suspension to be able to keep up.

so this is what i think i can fit in the front

rough estimate on weight and cg height











anyone see anything horribly wrong? I worry that thats not enough triangulation to keep the axle under the rig..also not much vertical separation
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:39 PM   #152 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=zukijames;14502674) I have really enjoyed alot of your post lots of tech/ knowledge in your post not stuff pulled out of your ass ! [/QUOTE]

Ha!. I am trying to "figure it out" right along with you! I have been having fun with offroading since the 70's. International offroad MC riding and then Jeeps. Offroading teaches the engineer that it is OK to re-invent. Lately, I have just been able to take video and ask questions of a few guys who should know, and try to make some sense out of it. Most of the drivers know what doesn't work. They apply that learning to the next "better build." There is one hell of a lot of talent on Pirate if you can get them talking, sending you in the right direction for more info, and trying to figure it out. You will notice that I usually ask a question at the end of what I may think is happening. I try to explain how I came to a thought instead of just giving the thought. That gives the real experts (someone who has actually done/experienced it) a chance to chime in. We all learn.

Personally, I have been working on a "Street Legal Jeep" build for 15 years. Think about how the offroad thing has changed in that time. I had everything figured out, but then guys started lifting, and tires got bigger. I want a sand/trail jeep that keeps up with the best of both. Up and bigger was not going where I wanted. Then guys started lowering their rides, and running more droop than compression. Things started back my way, and I picked up with some rock crawlers that wanted to go fast. Then KOH. Then even more suspension tricks with new parts technology. Awesome.

So now in the interest of suspension, I have given up on the sub 2k pound "Jeep", $1k alum mod44 IRS, $1k alum mod44 SUA, for another 1-2k pounds and 30x the price suspension. My bone yard includes 3 sets of brand new R&P's, 2 sets of 15" special built wheels, 1 new set of sand tires, a new set of 35's", and lots of outer axle stuff. I bet I have 2 tons of alum chunks in the garage purchased for hubs, axle tubes, links, arms, x members, body, etc. etc.

I can say that I have not done it right....But it DOES make me feel better if I can convince myself that it is OK to just S'Can a few months/years work...and $$$$$$$.

Everyone is trying to do and justify the same, and is fun as hell! (??)

I only hope to get something done, finished, fun on the trails, and fast in the dunes before something like electric motors take over.....LOL

SO NOW: DOUBLE TRIANGLE FRONT OR IFS with a front radiator/front engine????? ($5-10k vs $15-40k) ......and pro-dive, anti-dive, caster/camber gain, kick, travel, diff clearance, hydro, power rack, bell crank steering, .........???

I have a line on a 2k lb slab of 2 3/4" aluminum that I can make A-arms or links out of. Should I buy it?
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:06 PM   #153 (permalink)
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well no one has pitched in
Sorry I can't either. I understand IRS. I will become familiar with what you are trying if I decide on double triangle in the front. Cool that you are down to the numbers...and trying to figure it out! Cheers!
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:32 PM   #154 (permalink)
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hey atleast you looked at it
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Old 06-26-2012, 05:48 AM   #155 (permalink)
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Old 06-26-2012, 05:15 PM   #156 (permalink)
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i think this thread has died.. a few times.. maybe it will come back to life again
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Old 06-27-2012, 09:12 AM   #157 (permalink)
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Enough time has passed since this thread was created that some great tech could come back into this thread of what we have learned.

Talking about specific suspension setup numbers is difficult. I initially threw out some numbers to help get a discussion started, but tried to help keep the conversation past that discussing theory...

It's extremely hard to get people that "know" to talk. In fact, some of them are under contract not to talk. Sharing your specific design that you are kicking everyones ass with opens you up to competition

Discussing the the theory of how you did your design work or what you were trying to achieve in the design with the reasoning behind it, gives room for people that "know" to chime in and contribute with additional ideas or experiences that help guide us all to better designs.


If this becomes a "check my numbers thread" it will surely die quickly..

If Jason, or some of the guys that have stuff that is working great want to post some actual numbers, we will all be going fast as soon as we get the sawsaw out and modify our junk More than that, we could anylize the setup and try to see what it is that is making that design work to better educate us all as to what we might be designing toward... then take those principles and apply them to your own design.

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Old 06-27-2012, 12:43 PM   #158 (permalink)
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thanks for posting up!

sorry i didnt mean to take away from the thread by posting my numbers.. just cant get any insight anywhere else and thought the knowledge on this thread would enjoy picking it apart but got nothing..



im very curious where people are drawing the line on low anti dive to go faster throught the rough stuff.. but then having enough to make it so you dont loose it everytime you brake


am i wasting my time trying to get good number?

it was mentioned that suspension should be tuned in shocks not geometry..

while i dont agree with that i see the theory..

take two identical rigs with the same numbers.. and valve differently with different spring rates.. they will have completely different results..

on my build i didnt want the lowers triangulated to much.. ( i think too much triangulation makes more body roll)

but now everyone runs sway bars so does it even matter or can you just fix it with a sway bar?





whos running there lower links in the negative? that way the axle could go up and back kinda like why they rake back the IFS stuff .

or would it be to hard to build in enough anti dive/tune ?


i under stand most of the big names cant get on here and tell us what they are doing.. Although there is a few i could see telling if they were allowed to..just because they love competition!


Also with the way ultra 4 course is going more dirt less rocks .. except the hammers.. how long do you think solid axles will be able to hang around?
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Old 06-27-2012, 12:47 PM   #159 (permalink)
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also .. lower links above axle centerline.. some love it .. some hate it..

i think for getting it it makes it easier to keep your link flat and still get it up high.

all i can see is good from that .. yet some people are very against it..

i would think everyone racing koh would have them like that.

yes you have to build your upper links up higher to get vertical separation . but isnt having your upper links higher a good thing?
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Old 08-26-2012, 02:29 PM   #160 (permalink)
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I bought a chassis and collecting parts. By October I should be into building.
issues I am concerned with is steep hills without a suck down winch (will probably have one though) Off camber stuff and cornering without the buggy having tons of body roll.
This thread has given me a headache so off to drinking beer
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Old 08-27-2012, 02:49 PM   #161 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by zukijames View Post
also .. lower links above axle centerline.. some love it .. some hate it..
i think for getting it it makes it easier to keep your link flat and still get it up high.
all i can see is good from that .. yet some people are very against it..
i would think everyone racing koh would have them like that.
yes you have to build your upper links up higher to get vertical separation . but isnt having your upper links higher a good thing?
I agree with this idea but will be one of the KOH racers not running this..
You have to build the car around that idea.

I noticed a big difference in the front's ability to soak up hits when I dropped the ride height 1in. I think it is because the links are actually pointing up and recess back during the up travel.

Mounting the lower links above center line could give me this at the 1in taller height I want.

In crawling I really cared about the rear link geometry for shooting waterfall climbs, There was no answer for the best setup, all different numbers work by different drivers on different climbs..

but now for going fast getting the front to soak up hits is hard. The rear link geometry seams alot less critical for the go fast.

Body roll is one of the other hard to manage issues with going fast. My next rig I will build around front and rear sway bars. Just doing the rear was great for trails but for go fast I want more body control.
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Old 08-27-2012, 10:16 PM   #162 (permalink)
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This thread died for awhile but it did continue on in others. As drivers have been building new rigs, there has been great discussion around their choices and compromises. I think this thread, and KOH stimulated some more of the open "talk."

Going fast, "Getin it" has made everyone up their game in all details. Driver/Co-driver safety, steering response, shock/spring tune, suspension design, axle weight and design, tire size, communication, pit work, etc..... The morphosis from crawl'in to race'n.

And then there is the DRIVER; their endurance, and their experience with get'n it and actually being able to read the terrain, lines, and when to use either pedal.

Maybe a list?????

A healthy Budget $$$$$$
A RIG/JUNK that is built to SKID! ROLL! Retain parts. Promote visability, and protect! With speed come consequences. $$$
BIG Power that is dependable mechanically, electrically, cool, and not starved of fuel, oil, air, or $$$.
A drive train that can take the shock abuse of the desert and rock crawling, and run from 1 to 120 mph+. $$$
Tires and wheels that can handle a big hit/washout/bouldered terrain. The trend is taller, stickier, tougher, and hopefully lighter. Bead Locks and inner liners of some kind. $$$
Axle systems that can take abuse from shock, rock/tree/terrain hits, articulation, and promote ground clearance and low weight. $$$
Suspension, Suspension, Suspension
Articulating rear suspension near 20" with minimal articulating rear and roll steer, and provisions for a sway bar. Link triangulation, anti squat, kick, and pinion angle are words understood and engineered into the build. IRS may be another soon if belly height and $$$ become less important than preventing rear steer and independent articulation in the "nuisance" rocks. $$$
Front IFS suspension get's it as the race'in moves to desert/2-track speed instead of crawl'in. Steering precision at speed, driver comfort, and independent articulation over the nuisance rocks has led to this development. Watch for more work here. Improved design solid axle, triangulated link builds still win when the wheelin turns tough. $$$
Newer coil-over shock and bypass technology and undrstanding continue to make rigs faster in the rough, and extend some older designs. Tuners are in high demand, and even a perfect suspension needs these guys! Possibly someone to consult BEFORE you build. $$$
An understanding family endeavor, with lots of friendly and hard working build and pit people... LOVE...COMMITMENT
Good friends, fellow racers, sponsors, promoters, and spectators to help and cheer you on!


One hell of a lot of people have contributed to get'in to the above!

What did I miss? I'm sure I missed A LOT!
I'm just a guy looking to build my own someday. Get'in it when I want to.

Last edited by ISDTBower; 08-27-2012 at 10:44 PM.
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Old 08-28-2012, 08:54 AM   #163 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ISDTBower View Post
This thread died for awhile but it did continue on in others. As drivers have been building new rigs, there has been great discussion around their choices and compromises. I think this thread, and KOH stimulated some more of the open "talk."

Going fast, "Getin it" has made everyone up their game in all details. Driver/Co-driver safety, steering response, shock/spring tune, suspension design, axle weight and design, tire size, communication, pit work, etc..... The morphosis from crawl'in to race'n.

And then there is the DRIVER; their endurance, and their experience with get'n it and actually being able to read the terrain, lines, and when to use either pedal.

Maybe a list?????

A healthy Budget $$$$$$
A RIG/JUNK that is built to SKID! ROLL! Retain parts. Promote visability, and protect! With speed come consequences. $$$
BIG Power that is dependable mechanically, electrically, cool, and not starved of fuel, oil, air, or $$$.
A drive train that can take the shock abuse of the desert and rock crawling, and run from 1 to 120 mph+. $$$
Tires and wheels that can handle a big hit/washout/bouldered terrain. The trend is taller, stickier, tougher, and hopefully lighter. Bead Locks and inner liners of some kind. $$$
Axle systems that can take abuse from shock, rock/tree/terrain hits, articulation, and promote ground clearance and low weight. $$$
Suspension, Suspension, Suspension
Articulating rear suspension near 20" with minimal articulating rear and roll steer, and provisions for a sway bar. Link triangulation, anti squat, kick, and pinion angle are words understood and engineered into the build. IRS may be another soon if belly height and $$$ become less important than preventing rear steer and independent articulation in the "nuisance" rocks. $$$
Front IFS suspension get's it as the race'in moves to desert/2-track speed instead of crawl'in. Steering precision at speed, driver comfort, and independent articulation over the nuisance rocks has led to this development. Watch for more work here. Improved design solid axle, triangulated link builds still win when the wheelin turns tough. $$$
Newer coil-over shock and bypass technology and undrstanding continue to make rigs faster in the rough, and extend some older designs. Tuners are in high demand, and even a perfect suspension needs these guys! Possibly someone to consult BEFORE you build. $$$
An understanding family endeavor, with lots of friendly and hard working build and pit people... LOVE...COMMITMENT
Good friends, fellow racers, sponsors, promoters, and spectators to help and cheer you on!


One hell of a lot of people have contributed to get'in to the above!

What did I miss? I'm sure I missed A LOT!
I'm just a guy looking to build my own someday. Get'in it when I want to.
You missed seat time.
Which is more then driver experience, it is like burn in testing for everything on the rig. Any one little change or maintenance not raced is risky.

But its a catch of 22, burn in testing is destructive, the more you race the more aged everything on the rig becomes. Priority 1 is a well maintained experienced combination, that will win endurance over more $$$ and blips of speed.
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Old 08-28-2012, 09:21 AM   #164 (permalink)
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Seat Time=Driver's Experience

Buncha rookies in this thread anyway

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Old 08-28-2012, 10:43 AM   #165 (permalink)
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Rookies are making it tougher on the experienced.
Rookies are getting experienced quicker.
The list of potential winners is increasing every year.


Agreed that new builds are problematic. Stretching technology.

In motorcycle racing, I give a top rider about 90%+ of the win.

In KOH racing. I give the top teams: Driver about 55%, the rig 25%, support 20%.

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Old 09-06-2012, 08:25 PM   #166 (permalink)
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This thread should be linked with the spring tech thread from Zukizzy. Reading both made my head hurt for a week, but on my buddys current rig tfab 100 proof we made changes based on both and have come leaps and bounds.
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Old 09-17-2012, 06:03 PM   #167 (permalink)
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Link to ZukIzzy thread on shock springs. Plus the IFS/IRS TJ thread.

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1074029

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1089998
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Old 09-19-2012, 05:33 PM   #168 (permalink)
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wish i lived closer to zukizzy
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Old 09-19-2012, 05:34 PM   #169 (permalink)
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wish i lived closer to zukizzy



shannon campbell went to a 4 link on the rear of his new rig .. there must be something to it
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Old 09-26-2012, 12:12 AM   #170 (permalink)
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Shannon Campbell went to a 4 link on the rear of his new rig .. there must be something to it
You get to see a lot of rear suspensions when you start at the back of the pack, or are lapping them... I'll bet there was some homework there also, as many don't work...
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Old 09-26-2012, 05:24 PM   #171 (permalink)
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His trailing arms are 41 inches flat and triangulated only a few degrees if any at all..

His uppers are mounted wide on the axle .. It seems like that helps with body roll.

Also at the race last weekend I noticed on the landings guys with flat/ inverted lower links (I'm assuming very low anti squat ) landed a lot smoother!
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Old 09-28-2012, 10:39 AM   #172 (permalink)
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His trailing arms are 41 inches flat and triangulated only a few degrees if any at all..

His uppers are mounted wide on the axle .. It seems like that helps with body roll.
Not from what I recall, body roll is a function of the distance between roll centers and CG. Closer to the CG your roll center is the less body roll from the chassis.

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Also at the race last weekend I noticed on the landings guys with flat/ inverted lower links (I'm assuming very low anti squat ) landed a lot smoother!
I don't think the AS has much to do with the landing, I would guess the it's a combination of the vehicle setup and the arc the arms travel in.



As for mention of the numbers for various setup, it's important to realize that there are no magic set of number for a setup. The point of calcualting the numbers is so you can start to establish trends. Bad part is this require lots of work and many multiple setups to get dialed into to a area that works well for the vehicle or to get the setup to trend in a favorable direction.

So the standard range of number suggested here are really a conglomeration of many various vehicle and some good guestimation.
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Old 09-28-2012, 08:52 PM   #173 (permalink)
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I don't think the AS has much to do with the landing, I would guess the it's a combination of the vehicle setup and the arc the arms travel in.
The lower anti squat will transfer more of the force into the shocks, instead of through the links into the chassis. This could potentially make a difference in the behavior of the landing, but I would guess that it has more to do with the fact that putting the force into the shocks makes them easier to tune.
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Old 09-30-2012, 12:55 AM   #174 (permalink)
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Not from what I recall, body roll is a function of the distance between roll centers and CG. Closer to the CG your roll center is the less body roll from the chassis.

there is more than one way to skin a cat.. you are correct with the Cg and roll center but you can also build roll resistance into a suspension..

mock up a 4 link with pencils, Popsicle sticks ect. then cycle it and change the triangulation lots of triangulation on both ends makes it really easy for the chassis and axle to pivit( that could be good or bad)

on the land rover discovery1's the rear lower links/trailing arms have a bolt coming strait out of the link going into a bushing.. adding lots of roll resistance




I don't think the AS has much to do with the landing, I would guess the it's a combination of the vehicle setup and the arc the arms travel in.
from what i've noticed most low anti squat setups.. have flatter longer links.. resulting in a more gradual arc..


As for mention of the numbers for various setup, it's important to realize that there are no magic set of number for a setup. The point of calcualting the numbers is so you can start to establish trends. Bad part is this require lots of work and many multiple setups to get dialed into to a area that works well for the vehicle or to get the setup to trend in a favorable direction.

So the standard range of number suggested here are really a conglomeration of many various vehicle and some good guestimation.

i know every rig is different but 18 inch lower links on a 20* angle up to the chassis from the axle doesn't work good on any rig..

so i'd think #'s that are awesome on 1 rig should be decent on just about anything..
i do realize some rigs cant fit the same geometry as others like most rigs dont have room to have a really ugly tower on there rear axle like this..

but ugly tower allows for mounting lower links high on axle(keeping them flat) but still gives offers 8 to 13 inches of vertical seperation or something like that
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Old 10-02-2012, 03:34 PM   #175 (permalink)
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Link don't add roll resistance unless you have some kind of binding on your joints. The only thing that can add resistance is a spring or some kind. A bushing would be a spring although I don't really know what kind of rate it would add to the overall system. I would tend to think it would be small but you would have to do some work to determine the exact effect. Roll resistance or Roll Moment is a function of RC height and spring separation on each end of the vehicle.


As for the number that's not exact right. Are the CG the same, link lengths, link placements, wheel travel, spring rates, etc? usually no. Can we be stupid and throw out scenarios that obviously will give problems? Yeah but what's the point it doesn't prove anything. Can we get some basic assumption from one test rig? Sure but the only way to really evolve and confirm the assumptions is to do more testing with a baseline vehicle. As you change one function you start either moving closer or further from your desired effect. I guess if all your concerned with is copying AS values then that would work but won't tell you what the trends for the rest of the system. AS is one characteristic and probably not really all that important, imho.
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