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Old 03-11-2011, 12:44 PM   #251 (permalink)
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Excellent write up, looking forward to updates.


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Old 03-12-2011, 01:43 AM   #252 (permalink)
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fording

Check out this video. Looks like some kind of promotional video made by/for the military, promoting the early deuces. Hell yeah! I love these old trucks.


YouTube - m35a2 deuce under water


military fording kit

This is what the military's fording kit looks like:



As you can see, there's a snorkel that extends the air intake for the engine up to the height of the exhaust stack. The crankcase vent (slobber-tube) is also routed up to the same height, right alongside the exhaust stack and the snorkel. Finally, the air compressor air intake is connected to a pre-existing fitting on the engine's air filter housing. This is all accomplished with flexible hoses.

It's important to note that these fording kits were not intended to be permanently installed. Or rather, prior to fording, the operators were expected to spend a few minutes preparing the vehicle for deep-water fording.

The slobber-tube could not be left routed up above the engine because it would collect oil and gunk, so had to be re-routed from under the vehicle up to the fording position prior to deep-water fording.

There is a drain-plug for the bellhousing (normally open) which is threaded into a drain-plug keeper right next to the drain hole. Prior to fording the operator would need to climb under the vehicle to remove and install the bellhousing plug.

If the operator expected to spend an extended amount of time driving through deep water, the fan belts were also supposed to be loosened.

The fording kit also included a mini-regulator, an air-switch and lines/fittings to pressurize the bellhousing and the transmission, but interestingly, did nothing to extend many of the other check-valve breathers used all over the vehicles (axles, transfer-case, etc.). Probably because the after-fording maintenance includes re-packing all of the axle-bearings and inspecting/changing all the fluids.


improving on the military's fording kit

I read everything I could find about how the military fording kits worked, and decided that I would like to build a fording kit that I can leave hooked-up all the time. When it's time to get wet, I don't want to have to do anything more than flip a switch and put on my scuba-gear. Not that I'm planning on doing this on a regular basis, but would rather be prepared, and I just can't resist geeking-out on this stuff.


engine intake

Instead of using flexible tubing, I'm going to have a mandrel-bent snorkle made (90-degree bend backwards & angled 45-degrees up, to a 45-degree bend upwards to vertical, to a section of straight pipe that will be capped with a Sy-Klone Series 9000 pre-filter. These centrifugal pre-filters don't have anything to do with fording kits specifically, but are pretty awesome in their own right. They're used on a lot of heavy equipment (agricultural, mining, etc.) and are sold by Cat as a factory accessory. Took that as a pretty solid endorsement.

Not quite sure how tall I'm going to make the snorkle yet, but I want to get the pre-filter up above the windshield so the intake doesn't block any more of my field of vision than it needs to. mudguppy suggested a good source for cheap pre-bent mandrel tubing (here's a direct link).


crankcase vent

So I was thinking about dumping the slobber-tube into the exhaust, kind of like the crankcase evacuation kits that Moroso sells. But then I found these crankcase filters made by Racor/Parker. cranetruck had already done this. Really liked the idea of installing a filter and then permanently routing the crankcase vent to the engine intake, so I ordered a Racor ccv4500 unit.

cranetruck also posted some interesting info about the m656/xm757 trucks, which were amphibious vehicles that were equipped with the same multifuel engines that these M35A2's use. And it just so happened that cranetruck had an extra one of these valves laying around. When I expressed interest in it, he agreed to sell it to me for a very reasonable price. Acquired this out of curiosity more than anything else, but am planning on installing it in addition to the Racor CCV unit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cranetruck
Jesse, read about the m656/xm757 trucks, they were designed to swim/ford with a minimum of preparations. They also feature the multifuel engine.
A valve on top of the rocker covers (visible in image #1) makes it possible to pressurize the engine and the blowby gases are normally going out the exhaust (plumbing shown in image #2). No check valve here, the exhaust flow creates enough under pressure to keep fumes going in the right direction.

air compressor

The air-compressor intake has already been re-routed to the engine's air filter housing, as per the military fording kit instructions. But the interesting thing about this is that it draws unfiltered air. No reason for this that I can see, and the way it's plumbed into the air filter housing makes it more difficult to service the air filter. So I'm going to plug that hole and tap into the top half of the air filter housing, which will allow the air compressor to draw filtered air and will also make servicing the air filter easier.


fan

Not sure what I'm going to do about this, if anything. Would like to install some type of fan-clutch anyway, and am wondering if I might be able to adapt something like the on/off clutches that are used on air-compressors. A thermally-operated fan-clutch might even do the trick if the water is able to make contact and cool it. Could also rig-up some type of linear actuators to loosen the fan-belts. Not a high priority in any case, but I would like to discuss fan clutches in general if anybody has any suggestions. The direct-mounted fan on these engines has got to be quite a drag.

cranetruck shared some more helpful info about amphibious vehicles:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cranetruck
Probably a good idea. The m656 8x8 series designed to swim, have the fan on separate belts, designed to give/stop when subjected to the water. The generator belts will not slip, allowing it to generate power for bilge pumps etc while under water. The water pump is not effected, it runs on the same belts as the generator.

bellhousing drain-hole

Going to replace the drain-plug with some type of cable or air-operated ball-valve that I can open/close from the driveer's seat. Maybe something like this?


front steering knuckles

Noticed that there are two 1/4" NPT allen-plugs in each steering knuckle, and that got me to thinking about pressurizing the knuckles. Inspecting//re-packing the wheel-bearings after fording is suggested after fording water deeper than 18". That's not a particularly fun job, and and that's not a whole lot of water either. I had already replaced the stock knuckle boots with one-piece silicone boots, and I was curious to see what would happen if I pressurized them to 2-3psi. So I replaced one of the 1/4" NPT allen-plugs with a schrader valve, and then used a bike pump to see if the knuckle could hold any pressure. But the silicone boot blew up like a balloon right away, and I hadn't even use enough air pressure to register on the gauge I was using. If I put any more pressure into the knuckle, it was just going to push the boot out into the steering stop.




pressure regulator, manifold & vents / pressure-line

The transmission, bellhousing, transfercase, differentials, brake system, and air compressor governor vents will all be tied into a common vent / pressure system. The fuel system needs to be vented / pressurized separately, as specified in this service bulletin. Not sure how I'll isolate the fuel system (just haven't thought about it yet).

Thinking that I'll run individual 1/4" air-pressure / vent lines to some type of manifold, this 8-port manifold with a main on (pressure) / off (vent) valve, and then a larger common vent line that will be capped with some type of free-flowing filter. Probably mount the manifold and regulator outside the cab (somewhere on the firewall?), then just run the air supply and on/off valve in the cab another air-shift transfer-case switch mounted somewhere on/in/below the dash. That will allow me to run separate lines to everything, while only needing to put one new airline through the firewall (main air supply to the manifold).

Going to install valves at the manifold that will allow me to cut-off air to any of the individual air-pressure / vent lines like readyman did on his deuce. Just an extra precaution, so that in case there's a failure somewhere I will be able to cut off that part of the system.

Was looking at these regulators (highlighted in yellow) is a good choice for this application. It's adjustable from 0-25psi and is non-relieving, which sounds important, since it'll be tied into the main air supply (don't want to bleed off air). But gringeltaube and jwaller both stressed how important it is to select a regulator that is capable of regulating the low-low pressure that we want to be using (2-3psi).

Quote:
Originally Posted by gringeltaube
The main problem for me was finding a press. regulator for such a low range and to be sensitive enough to give consistent values, once adjusted. In this sense the original regulator which comes with the OEM fording kit resulted pretty much unreliable, besides other problems...!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwaller
I believe the std pressure regulator in the original kits was set at 2 psi. remember that the transmission has no seal on the input shaft and thus it will leak out a lot of air and might push some oil with it. I know bjorn has posted a lot about this. and finding a regulator that works with 120psi input and 2psi output is hard. esp when the input air press is constantly changing as it is bled off and builds up.
gringeltaube then shared some info with us about the fording kit he built., and the pressure regulator that he chose to use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gringeltaube
Here we go: see the precision regulator SMC IR1010 here http://www.smcworld.com/2008/e/webca.../IR.pdf#page=1

I choose that model over the IR1000 for a higher flow rate in case of leak. It still works pretty accurate at 2psi.
All the tubing is 1/4" nylon. Fittings for all vent ports (1/8"NPT) are std. one-touch connecting, swivel-type elbows.
Even if it doesn't come that way from factory I preferred to also hook up all 3 axle housings plus the TC to the same system. Since the low pressure circuit stays open to atmospheric pressure by default no pressure build-up issues should occur...
Sometimes I think separate circuits at corresponding different settings would be a much better solution..... , maybe one day, for the #1A perfect Deuce...!
Another thing I've been mulling over is the idea of installing some type of Tee (or Y) junction where each of the air-pressure / vent lines terminates at the place where it's connected to whatever's being vented. The thing I'm thinking about is that it seems like it might be a good idea to have an easy way to blow-out the lines. Seems to me that with such long vent lines, especially the ones that will run long horizontal stretches, that it's pretty likely the lines will accumulate some gunk and might be prone to clogging. But if I installed valves that I could open/close right where they end (at whatever's being vented), then I could open-up the mini-regulator to let more pressure blow through the lines and clean out anything that might have been accumulating in there. Good idea? Bad idea? Got any better ideas? Open to input here. Help me think this through.

Might also tie the remote reservoir for the brake system in to a separate mini-regulator, so I can pressure-bleed the brakes using the onboard air compressor.

Haven't decided what type of lines and fitting to use for all this stuff yet. I asked here and Keith_J suggested Polyethylene. Kinda thinking about using the push-lock airlines and fittings. They're expensive, but am going to be using that stuff for all the air lines anyway and using common parts seems like a good idea.


links

Here are a bunch of links to fording-related threads on steelsoldiers, where I got a lot of this info. Clipped these links from the index, where you can find links to all the content within this thread and a lot more related info, all organized by topic.
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Old 03-12-2011, 08:04 AM   #253 (permalink)
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Old 03-12-2011, 08:52 AM   #254 (permalink)
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Fans

Can you not use electric cooling fans and shut them off for fording?
I have mine on a on-off-on switch,
first on is low and controlled by a temp switch (on at 180*)
Off is off
Second on is high and I control that if the engine starts running hot
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Old 03-12-2011, 11:32 AM   #255 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredduck View Post
Can you not use electric cooling fans and shut them off for fording?
I have mine on a on-off-on switch,
first on is low and controlled by a temp switch (on at 180*)
Off is off
Second on is high and I control that if the engine starts running hot
Sure, that's an option. But for as many gadgets as I'm adding to this vehicle I really like the fact that they were designed to run without any type of functioning electrical system. So for every electrical accessory, there's a mechanical and/or air-powered backup. Has also been my experience that electric cooling fans have never quite matched the cooling performance of a good mechanical fan. Here's a link to some info about adding electric fans to a deuce though, and here's a link to some info about installing thermostatic fan clutches.
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Old 03-12-2011, 11:53 PM   #256 (permalink)
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Jeese, you can take and route the air compressor intake to the intake manifold. All the new HD trucks are plumbed that way, I thought it was odd but it works very well.
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Old 03-13-2011, 12:16 AM   #257 (permalink)
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No, that makes sense. Guess it's not any different than routing it to the air filter housing, and it's a shorter run. Thanks, it's a good suggestion. I'll take a look and see if that will work better than what I was planning on doing.
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Old 03-13-2011, 05:43 AM   #258 (permalink)
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I think you`ll be fine with a magnetic clutch from a a/c compressor. I`ll use one for my air compressor...
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Old 03-14-2011, 02:14 PM   #259 (permalink)
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cooling fans & clutches

Just posted this on SS:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jesusgatos
Removed the fan from mah deuce this morning and took some measurements:
  • fan mounting pattern: 4 x 3.125" & 2.1875" center-to-center (across the pilot-hub)
  • fan pilot hub dimensions: 1.5" in diameter x .5" thick
  • fan diameter: 20"
  • fan blade total thickness: 2"
  • distance from fan mounting surface to forward edges of fan blades: 1.0625"
  • distance from fan mounting surface to back edges of fan blades: .9375"
  • distance from fan mounting surface (forward) to radiator: 1.75"
  • distance from fan mounting surface (backwards) to back of fan shroud: 1"

Wondering if somebody could verify these dimensions on another truck, because it looks like the fan/clutch that Green Toys installed is quite a bit thicker than would fit between my water pump pulley and radiator.

How are these pulleys mounted to the water-pumps? Pressed-on? Wonder if the pulley could be modified, or a new pulley made, to make a bit more room?

Would like to figure that out before I start looking for parts, but a quick google-search turned up the following companies. Any other good sources for this type of stuff? Looks like Horton makes a lot of different clutches, and seems like some of them could be thermostatically and/or manually controlled. Having the ability to manually override would be pretty cool (thinking about fording).

Actually started looking into clutches specifically because of fording, and only later thought about the parasitic power loss and noise. Would have been a much lower priority, but am pretty much set on making something work now.
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Old 03-15-2011, 03:04 PM   #260 (permalink)
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LDS engine

Just found the rest of the pictures I took while we were moving the new LDS engine. My neighbor bought home a forklift to help me out, but it was a little bit smaller than the bobcat we used to load it into the truck; so we had to remove the top half of the engine crate first, and that made the engine and the bottom half of the crate just light enough that the forklift was able to pull it out of the back of the truck. The engine and crate weigh over 3000lbs, and the engine itself only weighs about 1400lbs. The whole crate is made out of 1/4" plate! It's sealed and pressurized, and the engine is secured well enough in there that it looks like it could take a pretty good tumble and still be alright.







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Old 03-15-2011, 03:20 PM   #261 (permalink)
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Is it designed to be dropped out of an airplane into the ocean or something? Holy crap. "Crate" doesn't seemed like the right word, more like "engine vessel"
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Old 03-15-2011, 03:23 PM   #262 (permalink)
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The crates are designed to be pressurized and reused many times. Think of them as an ISO container for an engine.
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Old 03-15-2011, 05:09 PM   #263 (permalink)
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Also just found this picture of my old shop in Bend, full of motorhome parts (and other projects).

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Old 03-17-2011, 06:10 PM   #264 (permalink)
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Very cool build!!!
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Old 03-19-2011, 01:25 PM   #265 (permalink)
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About the fording: what kind of fording are you planning to do? Swampy stuff that'll come above the hood? Driving through rivers so deep you'll be needing scuba gear? Or just to make sure you can get water above the bumper without having to worry about the intake?

I wouldn't worry too much about the engine fan while fording. You'll be creating a bow wave anyway, which will keep the water level lower around there.
Turning it off during fording seems like a pretty bad idea to me. The engine will be working harder pushing that rig through water, so it'll need the cooling (unless you're absolutely sure they don't run hot easily). You don't want to be overheating in the middle of a river because you turned off your fan.
If you're worried about the fan belt slipping due to the water resistance, I'd look into upgrading the belt setup.

If you do put on a selectable clutch, make sure it's rated for enough hp (hydraulic pump clutches, not AC clutches). If you forget to turn it off, and it does hit water, an AC clutch will be slipping pretty quickly I'd think.

As for pressurising the axles, I'm not too sure why you'd want to do this? If your seals are good, should you really be worried about water ingress? Just make sure to route the breathers up with the snorkle.

I do like the idea of overkill though, it is the best kind of kill after all.

Anyway, awesome build, it's something I'd love to do someday, and I love the look of the deuces, but they're very rare and expensive around here sadly.
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Old 03-19-2011, 01:45 PM   #266 (permalink)
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The fan will snap the blades off or bend them up pretty easily when it hits water so it must slip somehow. The fording procedure for all the old US military trucks requires the fan belts be loosened before fording. Gutting the radiator is not exactly an option.

As for overheating, it's for fording a river, not driving around for hours in a lake. The engine can handle the fan not spinning for a while and if the water is deep enough, the radiator will exchange heat with the water as it will obviously be cooler.

As for pressurizing the axles, again, part of the US military fording kit and procedure. With a slight positive pressure on the drivetrain, you get rid of the hot axle into cool water dunking that sucks water past the seals as the assembly cools and contracts.

The whole system is a proven design and has been in use in military vehicles around the world for over 50 years.
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Old 03-19-2011, 02:01 PM   #267 (permalink)
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The fan will snap the blades off or bend them up pretty easily when it hits water so it must slip somehow.
Fair enough, it seems strange that those blades are that weak though. I've never heard of a fan failing due to water... I've seen a few that have failed due to branches getting into them and such though.

Quote:
As for overheating, it's for fording a river, not driving around for hours in a lake. The engine can handle the fan not spinning for a while and if the water is deep enough, the radiator will exchange heat with the water as it will obviously be cooler.
That's why I asked what his plans for it were. If it's just for fording a river, agreed, running a selectable fan will be an easy fix.

Quote:
As for pressurizing the axles, again, part of the US military fording kit and procedure. With a slight positive pressure on the drivetrain, you get rid of the hot axle into cool water dunking that sucks water past the seals as the assembly cools and contracts.
If the axle is hot, there's already pressure inside the axle, which is why you need the breathers in the first place. If that's your only concern, put a valve on the breather that opens up above 3psi and let the axle pressurise itself?
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Old 03-19-2011, 02:47 PM   #268 (permalink)
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fording

At the very minimum, I would make some basic fording preparations 'just in case'. Not planning on taking mah deuce swimming, but sometimes where's water between here and there (crossing a creek/river, navigating streets in a flooded area, etc.). Only taking the fording preparations to the extent that I am because I think it's kinda neat.

Like Elwenil said, loosening to the fanbelts is standard procedure when making fording preparations (for extended water-crossings). Overheating is not going to be a problem because the water flowing over/through the radiator will cool the engine more effectively than a fan ever could. The stock fan is pretty robust, but just think about the forces it would be subjected to, slapping the water. Easy to see how that might end up bending/breaking fan-blades (destroying the radiator), throwing the fan out-of-balance, putting unnecessary strain on the water-pump, etc.

The military fording kit actually did not include any type of provisions to pressurize the axles. Only the transmission and the bellhousing, if I remember correctly. But the axle-seals were designed to keep fluids and grease in, not to keep water out. Can't see how pressurizing the axles would do anything but help to prevent water from getting into the axles. Lots of other vehicles have done this, and it's a pretty common modification among deuce owners.
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Old 03-19-2011, 03:48 PM   #269 (permalink)
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As far as fan blades and water, go slap a waterbed as hard as you can. Water hurts, lol. Fan blades are typically aluminum and easily bent possibly hitting the radiator.

And yes, axles do have pressure in them if not vented due to heat, but then dunk them in cool water and they pressure is quickly gone, causing a vacuum. I don't claim to know exactly how the whole deal works and I trust in our military's engineers to have come up with a good solution. The procedure for fording with my old M715 was to plug the bellhousing drain, loosen the fan belts and then pull the fording lever to close off the events and apply pressure to the drivetrain assemblies from the dual action fuel pump. Later on the military drifted away from this method as it was deemed easier to drain the axles after fording as part of the PM rather than deal with the added complications and training. This also coincided with a change in strategy about how convoy operations and logistics were handled during the Cold War where they seemed less interested in making every vehicle able to run through anything forever, lol.

As far as the pressurized axles, I believe in them and will be implementing them on my Ramcharger since it's intended use is to get me out of town when it floods and 3' of water is common. At least that is what I keep telling myself when I plan out these things so I seem a little less crazy.
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Old 03-19-2011, 04:03 PM   #270 (permalink)
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As far as fan blades and water, go slap a waterbed as hard as you can. Water hurts, lol. Fan blades are typically aluminum and easily bent possibly hitting the radiator.
Yes, it hurts when hitting it with a large surface area. Fan blades cut into the water with very little surface area.
But fair enough, I can't recall seeing any aluminium fan blades around here, it's all rather thick plastic, and I guess that has a little less give in it.

And you're of course right about the cooling of the engine during fording, I didn't quite think that one through I guess.

Now on with the build, looking forward to more updates
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Old 03-19-2011, 04:29 PM   #271 (permalink)
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The stock fan is very robust, made of steel with a doubled-up steel center-section sandwiching the fan-blades. But the leading edges of the fan-blades are less than 3/4" away from the radiator, and I don't see the need to risk damaging the fan, and potentially destroying the radiator (going to build a low-profile fan-guard for the radiator anyway).

Having to manually loosen the fan-belts is no big deal though, and adapting a fan-clutch was pretty low on my priority list when I was only thinking of it as a fording-related upgrade. But looking into it, I quickly realized that a fan-clutch would dramatically improve power and efficiency (stock fan consumes about 13hp by most accounts I've read), and also creates a lot of noise. So now I'm looking into adapting fan-clutches with a little bit different mindset, and it's something that I'm almost certainly going to do one way or another.
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Old 03-19-2011, 09:32 PM   #272 (permalink)
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steering

Started these threads a while ago, when I first started thinking about what I wanted to do with the steering. Still haven't worked-out all the details, but am planning on doing some kind of full-hydro conversion.

fail-proofing full hydro steering (pirate4x4.com)
fail-proofing full hydro steering (steelsoldiers.com)


And here are a few more relevant threads from the index:

Power steering for the Deuce? (steelsoldiers.com)
5 ton mf power steering pump on m35a2 (steelsoldiers.com)
End all powersteering mod (steelsoldiers.com)
hyd power steering info (steelsoldiers.com)
Deuce power steering conversion (steelsoldiers.com)
deuce power steering gear boxes (steelsoldiers.com)
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Old 03-20-2011, 12:53 PM   #273 (permalink)
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I run a piece of expanded metal between the radiator and grill. It keeps the rad alive when the fan makes love with it and I had a rig that every time the motor torqued it fit the expanded metal.
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Old 03-20-2011, 09:31 PM   #274 (permalink)
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That's a good idea. I was just planning on bending-up a couple of concentric hoops of something like .25" solid rod and then making some kind of crossmember to support it. Have seen similar guards used on other vehicles and seems pretty straightforward. Will give it some more thought before I do anything though, and a lot of it will come down to how much room I have to work with after I install a fan clutch.
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Old 03-23-2011, 12:18 AM   #275 (permalink)
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learning how to work with composites

Weather's been lousy, so haven't been able to spend much time working on that hardtop or taking dimensions for the rollcage. Been messing around with dirtbikes instead, learning how to work with composites. Am sure that I'll find a way to use what I'm learning on mah deuce, so it's not totally un-related...











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