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Old 05-01-2016, 10:04 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I am really just looking for some good advice as to which block to start with. When it comes to motors, I am a chevy or diesel guy. I know next to nothing about Fords.
The science is the same regardless of brand. It's a truck, and it's probably going to weigh a bit. My recommendation is large cubic inch pump gas BBF, as they make great torque for heavy cars and pickups and are a very economical to build choice for that power level. If this was a Chevy, I'd recommend a Rat for the same reasons. Last, whatever you want with turbos. I always lean towards less complication.

I gotta add, why 700hp? Has he actually piloted something with that much power on tap before? If it's an offroad rig, what's the fixation? It's certainly not necessary for most wheeling except for the Florida crowd or the mud dragsters. The rest of it won't last long....

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Yeah, okay. Guess 5.3 it is for my next motor.
Knock yourself out. I'd never start with stock pistons if I wanted to make real power. Guys have done it, but like all the LS budget swaps, they're on borrowed time.

Not sure why people think any of these are indestructible. You're literally relying on some union bonehead on an assembly line to construct the basis of your "performance" engine. Like anything, it's worth the time put in.

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Old 05-01-2016, 10:08 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Sometimes I forget how stupid and gullible you are. But then I remember.
Are you saying you can make a reliable 700 without forged internals? Not for long...
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Old 05-01-2016, 10:09 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Maybe whitetrash303 will chime in, he has a good bit of BBF experience.

I'm guessing a low psi 5,6,7 psi on a 460 would get you to your goal the cheapest; if packaging and weight aren't that much of a concern.

The modular motors have incredible drivability and efficiency even making huge power, but at a more premium price.
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Old 05-01-2016, 10:12 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Knock yourself out. I'd never start with stock pistons if I wanted to make real power. Guys have done it, but like all the LS budget swaps, they're on borrowed time.
Eh, thousand bucks for 6-800hp, maybe get 5000 miles out of it, or 20k for a motor/trans that I'd be afraid to hurt...

So far with the turbo'd 5.0, I like my rev limiter, aluminum on my plugs is pretty normal, and I don't lift when the 170k mile valvesprings can't keep up with the weak explorer cam. I'll take the cheap shit, captain.
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Old 05-01-2016, 10:13 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Are you saying you can make a reliable 700 without forged internals? Not for long...
He's saying that he wants to prove beyond all shadows of any doubt, that he is a laughing stock, a fool, and a complete moron that is way out of his league posting in anything but GCC. His stupidity isn't quite as obvious there but shines through like a beacon here. Frankly (pun intended ), I'm glad I saw his posts here, shows what a blithering retard he really is and that nothing he says should be valued in any regard.
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Old 05-01-2016, 10:40 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Are you saying you can make a reliable 700 without forged internals? Not for long...
Actually, there is a guy out there doing it that didn't even understand that hydraulic lifters are preloaded in operation. He seems to usually blow them up when something external to the motor goes wrong, like a wastegate not opening or fuel pump not keeping up.
Either way, it's something that enough people are documenting lately that it's apparently more proven than dirt cheap BBF hp. I was hoping to find some knowledge on just that before trying it myself, not really looking to blaze a trail after my 7.3 ranger shitshow (I sure did learn a lot, though). I did kinda want to fuck around with a 460, mass is class after all.

Sorry for the derail, I guess.

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Old 05-02-2016, 06:53 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Actually, there is a guy out there doing it that didn't even understand that hydraulic lifters are preloaded in operation. He seems to usually blow them up when something external to the motor goes wrong, like a wastegate not opening or fuel pump not keeping up.
Either way, it's something that enough people are documenting lately that it's apparently more proven than dirt cheap BBF hp. I was hoping to find some knowledge on just that before trying it myself, not really looking to blaze a trail after my 7.3 ranger shitshow (I sure did learn a lot, though). I did kinda want to fuck around with a 460, mass is class after all.

Sorry for the derail, I guess.
No need to apologize, this shitshow is the PBB.

You know what kind of builds you're getting into, and a lot of guys have fun in the same manner. I had friends who would blow up a different SBC build every month, and they had fun. I find a lot of what's published to be misleading for a lot of newbies to autosports. They read about all of these too good to be true turbo builds and think anybody can do it themselves with a handful of their dad's tools on a shoestring budget, and make it live. The guys actually doing it have a good idea of what to expect.

Do a little more reading on the forums, as there are a few budget BBF turbo builds that have been done in the past. As long as the core you find is in good shape, it stands better chances of survival. That's a good reason why you see more late model stock piston builds, they're just flat out newer and often pulled from wrecked but running vehicles.

In the past I toyed with the idea of a budget draw through setup on a D3VE (95cc chamber) headed Lincoln Mark 4 or large Mercury. Decided I'd rather have a car set up to live at the track instead, so I'm building an N/A BBF Capri.

There was a decent stock EFI piston build I was browsing the other day. Not turbo, but impressive numbers for a stock rod/piston/crank with ported D0VEs combo, and 11.6:1 compression. I'll try to find it for you. It's definitely doable, just most opt to start totally fresh.

EDIT: http://www.460ford.com/forum/40-engi...ld-2002-a.html
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Old 05-02-2016, 06:58 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Want cheap 700hp? Cruise site like racingunk.com and pick up a bbf stroker build someone doesn't want, install boost friendly pistons, check everything to makes sure its good, then toss your turbo on it. A mild 514bbf will likely hit 700hp with less than 7psi of boost, this will keep it cheap & easy, factory head & block can be used as well, so don't be scared if this is what you find.

Second option, buy a refurb'd ford Nascar motor. Not the new ones, but the yates D3 headed versions. These in stock form are at 7-800hp, so install a set of boost friendly pistons and go from there (you'll be hitting 1000+ with this). Last I looked these start in the 12k range.

Third option, build a 6.8 v10. Based on what you say the needs are, this or the bbf will be the best route for a wheeler. I'd start with a 3v version, rebuild from the bottom up (bearings, etc), install boost friendly pistons/rings, cams to suit the turbos, and the turbos of your choice. Only down fall with this options is fitting the motor in the chassis, they are kinda big due to the OHC setup (the 5.4's are basically the same external dimensions as a bbf, and the V10 just adds two cylinders onto that).

4th option: Build a stroker 351m like I did
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Old 05-02-2016, 08:09 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Do a little more reading on the forums, as there are a few budget BBF turbo builds that have been done in the past. As long as the core you find is in good shape, it stands better chances of survival. That's a good reason why you see more late model stock piston builds, they're just flat out newer and often pulled from wrecked but running vehicles.
I was thinking on an EFI motor as a starting point, figure they'll have less of a ring ridge than a carb'd motor. Less fuel washing the oil off the cylinders and all that. Less desirable (cheaper) for the same reasons people don't like LS motors. $300 71mm borg warner'll take care of the breathing. Stock rotating assy other than rod bolts is pretty heartening, rods and pistons get expensive quick.
Here and I was trying to convince myself to take the easy way out.

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Old 05-02-2016, 08:24 AM   #35 (permalink)
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the factory EFI 460's are a special breed. The efi system is a PITA to work with, and the heads use different ports. They will work, but you get kind of stuck to that setup if you go that route. Good for a short block doner though, but I think you can find a stroker short block elsewhere fairly cheap as well.
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Old 05-02-2016, 08:43 AM   #36 (permalink)
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So obviously my vote was the modular route....

No reason a budget built 460 with a blow through carb and a used centrifugal blower at low pressure (6,7 psi) wouldn't work either. Probably don't even need to intercool it if keeping the boost low. Heck you probably can use factory exhaust manifolds even and still get to 700 easy; no efi, no intercooler, no fancy exhaust.....

imho to do a turbo right would cost more than a supercharged setup. I'm just not one for the "budget" builds.
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Old 05-02-2016, 08:47 AM   #37 (permalink)
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It's no thing for a new Ford motor to push 700hp. I have some turbo buddies that drive to the drag strip with the AC on slap on some slicks run a upper 8 sec 1/4 then drive home. I think they are running closer to 1000hp on their coyote motors though.

This is a buddy of mine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqzstw9kFz4

You guys might know him from this photo. The F5 Mustang.

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Old 05-02-2016, 08:57 AM   #38 (permalink)
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It's no thing for a new Ford motor to push 700hp. I have some turbo buddies that drive to the drag strip with the AC on slap on some slicks run a upper 8 sec 1/4 then drive home. I think they are running closer to 1000hp on their coyote motors though.
Welp, that was my entire original long winded point... have 700 on tap with plenty of room to grow, still get 20mpg, run on pump gas, keep your A/C, have a good charging system, grandma could still drive (perfect drivability).


That idea got shit upside and down the other because we want to pull junkyard motors with stock pistons for $50, slap a $50 turbo on it, run it at a power level within an inch of it mortal life 800!? claimed HP on a stock 302 , melt the pistons out of it/crack the block in 1/2 in less than 5k miles on the combo, then start all over again

So follow along closer noob, that's where we're at


edit: No disrespect meant to you at all... you get it Dustin?/CPR seems to know his stuff, and his cars/customers cars run awesome!!

4.0L whipple on Coyote >1000hp (stock heads, stock cams, stock 6R80 auto). Nothing fragile about any of this stuff (as was mentioned before). The 6R80 is the best auto trans Ford ever made thus far, they regularly hold >1000hp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Yxekmav2eQ
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Old 05-02-2016, 09:36 AM   #39 (permalink)
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That idea got shit upside and down the other because we want to pull junkyard motors with stock pistons for $50, slap a $50 turbo on it, run it at a power level within an inch of it mortal life 800!? claimed HP on a stock 302 , melt the pistons out of it/crack the block in 1/2 in less than 5k miles on the combo, then start all over again

So follow along closer noob, that's where we're at
Um, we already established that we have no problem dropping $ on this build so he is more on point than you are!

While I would prefer a junkyard rebuild, I certainly have no problem with a crate or scratch built motor.
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Old 05-02-2016, 09:52 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Um, we already established that we have no problem dropping $ on this build so he is more on point than you are!

While I would prefer a junkyard rebuild, I certainly have no problem with a crate or scratch built motor.
The comment was definitely not directed at you, that's why I posted some other options. Nothing wrong at all with rebuilding a motor from the boneyard or from a previous build; that's where most motors come from after all.

I did a little research on my own last night just to double check that things hadn't changed in the now many years I've been away from pushrod motors, and the general consensus I found that was to build any small block based Ford motor reliably to the 700 mark (so that all 700 hp can be used all the time any time without worry) was in the 15k neighborhood (not including the power adder... long block parts + machine shop labor to assemble only). Nitrous, supercharged, turbocharged, whatever... same deal; to keep the block sealed up and keep the rotating assembly in. Then add your favorite power adder on top of that.

The more I think about it low boost 460 based engine is probably the most economical way to hit 700, easy peasy. With a big enough cam, enough compression, and good heads probably can do it naturally aspirated.
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Old 05-02-2016, 11:17 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Good to know. Thanks for all the input. I'll float this info to the man with the money and see what he decides on.
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Old 05-02-2016, 03:23 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I had to dig up an old magazine with a mild 460 blower build.
My scanner isn't working so I'll type the essentials.

Mid 70's Lincoln engine, rebuilt, stock crank, stock rods with arp bolts, off-the-shelf TRW 8:1 forged pistons, ported stock heads.
Crower flat tappet hydraulic cam, 270/290 advertised duration, .480" lift, 110 lobe separation, installed at 106 intake centerline.
6-71 roots supercharger, 6% underdriven for 8 psi boost, dual 750 Holleys.

609 hp at 5600 rpm, 630 ft-lb at 4600 rpm
Made 210 hp and 527 ft-lb at 2100 rpm
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Old 05-02-2016, 06:10 PM   #43 (permalink)
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the factory EFI 460's are a special breed. The efi system is a PITA to work with, and the heads use different ports. They will work, but you get kind of stuck to that setup if you go that route. Good for a short block doner though, but I think you can find a stroker short block elsewhere fairly cheap as well.
Aftermarket computer (microsquirt) for fuel and spark, and a (couple?) 71mm borg warner(s) for airflow. Got that much laying around the house or on cars that can come apart. Just gotta buy some decent 120lb injectors, whatever fuel pump the cool kids are running these days, a chinese IC, and a motor to do stupid things to.

It's all surprisingly easy, just need the iron to hold up to it all.

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Old 05-02-2016, 06:48 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Custom Drag Racing Engines & Transmissions | Awesome Engines » 545CI BBF 700HP Pro Street Crate Engine
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Old 05-02-2016, 07:39 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I knew a guy that raced Honda civics when imports were the big thing. I don't know my Hondas, but basically everyone wanted vtec motors because of their superior output, but he would buy the non vtec motors for cheap and he had a massive multistage nitrous and fuel kit he had worked out all his dyno tuning on. He would install a running motor, spray all over it, and it would last a few weekends before it popped. Swap it out for another $100 engine, put the spray back on, and head back to the track.

There are more than a few of the 5.3 builds I've read online that are like that. Only problem if it's gonna be used out in the woods is that an aaa card won't help. But 700 hp won't help much in the woods anyway.

No one has mentioned it but the new 6.2's will apparently hit over 600 at the wheels with a supercharger and minor bolt ons. Guessing that's expensive. But still
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Old 05-02-2016, 07:44 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Interesting! Cost is roughly the same for that power level especially if you add any goodies. That looks like a nice carb to pan motor, even includes a t-shirt Doesn't mention compression ratio of the included pistons, although I'm ASS-uming it would be pump gas friendly. That would make that power all day, very happy.

They also offer a 750hp SBF but @ $16k :/

Custom Drag Racing Engines & Transmissions | Awesome Engines » 434ci 750HP SBF Bullet Race Engine

So the 15k number I tossed out earlier for a SBF was pretty spot on. An added crux with the SB is it looks like it makes that power with 14:1 pistons, which is firmly race gas only territory. I wish it wasn't so myself (so pricey to do as a small block). I'd like to just toss a SB back in my T-bird rather than commit to the modular swap as I have accessory bracketry, mounts and cross member for that, instead it sits semi indefinitely on jack stands while I ponder what to do next.

The OP should let us know which route he goes.....
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Old 05-02-2016, 08:09 PM   #47 (permalink)
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You can do better than that guy's price. CarsByCarl Scroll on down to the Ultimate Fighter. The owner happens to be a respected builder in the 460 world.

Also, note where the torque comes on. This shit will break parts in a hurry.

There are some folks saying that the ProComp Chinese aluminum castings are actually good quality as long as you buy them bare and have someone competent finish them. $700 for some brand new bare castings that mimick the factory D0VE heads would be a great start for at turbo build and easy to port 'cause aluminum. Also have the large chamber option iirc. Might be great for more of a budget ground up turbo build utilizing a stock crankshaft.
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Old 05-03-2016, 05:17 AM   #48 (permalink)
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You can do better than that guy's price. CarsByCarl Scroll on down to the Ultimate Fighter. The owner happens to be a respected builder in the 460 world.
I'm an LSx guy that was just the first link I found via google, so I offer no input of the quality of the build. Just figured if they are selling for that price, the OP could build it himself for less.
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Old 05-03-2016, 06:47 AM   #49 (permalink)
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I'm an LSx guy that was just the first link I found via google, so I offer no input of the quality of the build. Just figured if they are selling for that price, the OP could build it himself for less.

Absolutely and that was kinda my point. It doesn't take $20K to build a reliable 700 hp BBF when a decent crate engine can be had for $10K. You can save a shit ton building yourself, especially if you either have some of the parts already or buy them used.
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Old 05-03-2016, 09:09 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Just join the bbf groups, people sell 600 hp boat and drag motors that probably cost $12k to build for $6 or 7 all the time... As said, lower compressions piston aren't gonna break the bank and gives you a good chance to check bearings and etc while it's apart. If I wanted a big power bbf, after building a more moderate build, I'd definitely start with something someone else already built.
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