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-   -   Best Ford engine for 700hp turbo setup? (https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2311554)

rtbcoop 05-01-2016 06:39 PM

Best Ford engine for 700hp turbo setup?
 
I am stepping into a realm that I know nothing about so I wanted to get some input from my favorite online a$$holes! :flipoff2: I am helping a friend plan a build and he is insisting on a 700hp turbo setup on a gas Ford engine. I know enough about motors (chevy) and turbo setups but I know next to nothing about the Ford family of engines. What would your suggestions be as a starting point for a build like this?

Beat95YJ 05-01-2016 07:02 PM

LS. :flipoff2:

crazyredneckanyhow 05-01-2016 07:13 PM

Your only real option is a 460 with a stroker kit pushing the mid 500 ci range. Expect to dump around $20k into it.

rtbcoop 05-01-2016 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beat95YJ (Post 36606346)
LS. :flipoff2:

My thoughts exactly! I told him a 5.3 would be perfect but he is set on keeping a Ford motor in a Ford...:mad3:

Beat95YJ 05-01-2016 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyredneckanyhow (Post 36606458)
Your only real option is a 460 with a stroker kit pushing the mid 500 ci range. Expect to dump around $20k into it.

A coyote would get there. Similar cost probably. :homer:

crazyredneckanyhow 05-01-2016 07:20 PM

True. The newer engines like that typically dont cross my mind though.

rtbcoop 05-01-2016 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyredneckanyhow (Post 36606458)
Expect to dump around $20k into it.

Ouch, I was afraid of that. Maybe it'll make for a good argument to let me use a Chevy...

Dr.Danger 05-01-2016 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyredneckanyhow (Post 36606458)
Your only real option is a 460 with a stroker kit pushing the mid 500 ci range. Expect to dump around $20k into it.

Wrong. Engine alone should not cost near that at those power levels. And no 460 stroker needs a turbo setup to get there, that's well documented power made a thousand ways naturally aspirated. It's just easier with 500+ cubes, and at a lower rpm. Fuck, guys are doing it on stock iron heads these days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beat95YJ (Post 36606538)
A coyote would get there. Similar cost probably. :homer:

Even more wrong. BBF is probably one of your best bang for the buck engines out there, and so is the LS. The 'yote suffers from availability at this time, but will eventually fall back within the realm of the others.

If you want to build it RIGHT, an LS will cost just as much, and neither one will take $20K to get it. You have to do the research, select the appropriate parts, and have realistic expectations for your build. The vehicle it's going in is going to take a lot of money in upgrades to handle it. That's where things get expensive.

A $1500 running LS and transmission plus a couple of chinese turbochargers is not my idea of bang for your buck hp, it's a ticking bomb, despite what everyone on PBB seems to parrot these days. Never mind the fact that a Chevy engine in a Ford is gayer than aids.

Either way, OP is in over his head for even asking in here, and so is his buddy most likely.

crazyredneckanyhow 05-01-2016 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rtbcoop (Post 36606690)
Ouch, I was afraid of that. Maybe it'll make for a good argument to let me use a Chevy...

My only bitch about an ls1 is that any fucktard with a socket set can put one in anything. It takes real talent to build an engine from the ground up to do what he's wanting to do. The ls1 crowd is just as bad as the cummins swap crowd anymore.

crazyredneckanyhow 05-01-2016 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Danger (Post 36606818)
Wrong. Engine alone should not cost near that at those power levels.



Even more wrong.

If you want to build it RIGHT, an LS will cost just as much, and neither one will take $20K to get it. You have to do the research, select the appropriate parts, and have realistic expectations for your build. The vehicle it's going in is going to take a lot of money in upgrades to handle it. That's where things get expensive.

A $1500 running LS and transmission plus a couple of chinese turbochargers is not my idea of bang for your buck hp, it's a ticking bomb, despite what everyone on PBB seems to parrot these days.

A well built 557 to handle 700 hp is going to put you in the 12k range. I'm not talking eagle cranks and stock heads. if you're going to build it to handle that amount of power for any decent period of time you'll need a set of tfs heads, quality rotating assembly, custom ground crank and so forth. Throw in the turbos and I'd say you're well over 20k with a custom injection system. I'm sure he could save some coin doing a blow through carb setup but at this point in an engine build that would be ignorant.

Dr.Danger 05-01-2016 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyredneckanyhow (Post 36606898)
A well built 557 to handle 700 hp is going to put you in the 12k range. I'm not talking eagle cranks and stock heads. if you're going to build it to handle that amount of power for any decent period of time you'll need a set of tfs heads, quality rotating assembly, custom ground crank and so forth. Throw in the turbos and I'd say you're well over 20k with a custom injection system. I'm sure he could save some coin doing a blow through carb setup but at this point in an engine build that would be ignorant.

You sound like you're stuck in 2002. You don't NEED turbos and fuel injection to hit that kind of power with a stroker and the slew of cylinder heads out on the market these days. You can buy it for $12K or less, and it runs on pump gas.

Have you actually priced a set of SCJ heads and a forged stroker kit these days? This is of course assuming you're doing all of your own assembly work and have a reasonably priced machinist.

I'll keep you filled in on my current build. I'm most likely going to be ordering a set of the new AFR heads this week. :grinpimp:

Check out the flow numbers if you haven't looked at them.

arse_sidewards 05-01-2016 08:00 PM

Is this a "$500 car, junkyard engine, Craigslist turbos, rebuild kits and spend the rest on Summit" build or is this a "I have lots of money and when I do something I go all out, aftermarket bling everything and I don't re-use a single part" build?

The answer you get depends on lot on what kind of build this is. If you're cheap then there's no replacement for displacement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rtbcoop (Post 36606066)
I am stepping into a realm that I know nothing about so I wanted to get some input from my favorite online a$$holes! :flipoff2: I am helping a friend plan a build and he is insisting on a 700hp turbo setup on a gas Ford engine. I know enough about motors (chevy) and turbo setups but I know next to nothing about the Ford family of engines. What would your suggestions be as a starting point for a build like this?

460, 351, modular, etc. Heck you can probably get 700 from a 300 if you go all out with intercoolers, run it on race fuel, etc, etc.

At the end of the day you're basically using a turbo to force feed air into the thing. The bigger the "thing" the less pressure you're gonna need to force feed it at and the easier everything else will be. You're also trading of engine speed and boost. The faster you spin it the less pressure you need.

If you want easy then go with 460 or v10 you might even be able to run 87 with them if you cool the air enough or add water/methanol.

I don't see much benefit to using a 5.8 over a 5.4. If you want to make a reasonable trade-off between engine speed and boost he 5.8 will probably need more $$ to get it to spin fast enough to where you're comfortable with the trade-off compared to the 5.4.

You could even build a 4.6 (or was it 4.8?) IIRC those early modulars have been pushed to over 1000hp on a particular stock block (Lincolns and some Fords IIRC).

crazyredneckanyhow 05-01-2016 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Danger (Post 36606954)
You sound like you're stuck in 2002. You don't NEED turbos and fuel injection to hit that kind of power with a stroker and the slew of cylinder heads out on the market these days. You can buy it for $12K or less, and it runs on pump gas.

Have you actually priced a set of SCJ heads and a forged stroker kit these days? This is of course assuming you're doing all of your own assembly work and have a reasonably priced machinist.

I'll keep you filled in on my current build. I'm most likely going to be ordering a set of the new AFR heads this week. :grinpimp:

Check out the flow numbers if you haven't looked at them.

I know you don't need a turbo and injection but that's what the op asked about. I know of a 700 hp n/a 468 that just got built. Something like this isn't something I'd tackle on my own. Hell its cheaper to pay someone that builds high hp engines to do it than it is to buy all the tools I'd need to build it myself.

hasteranger 05-01-2016 08:11 PM

2.3 turbo. Should be fine. Maybe a little high strung.

Dr.Danger 05-01-2016 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rtbcoop (Post 36606066)
I am stepping into a realm that I know nothing about so I wanted to get some input from my favorite online a$$holes! :flipoff2: I am helping a friend plan a build and he is insisting on a 700hp turbo setup on a gas Ford engine. I know enough about motors (chevy) and turbo setups but I know next to nothing about the Ford family of engines. What would your suggestions be as a starting point for a build like this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyredneckanyhow (Post 36607074)
I know you don't need a turbo and injection but that's what the op asked about. I know of a 700 hp n/a 468 that just got built. Something like this isn't something I'd tackle on my own. Hell its cheaper to pay someone that builds high hp engines to do it than it is to buy all the tools I'd need to build it myself.

Must have missed where he mentioned fuel injection.

Bottom line, there is no replacement for displacement, and the best engine in existence for that would be the BBF. Scat and Lunati and Eagle to a lesser extent make good forged cranks for not a lot of money. Stock cast cranks handle 800 no problem and plenty of guys have taken them past 1500 on a good tune. Passenger car blocks handle a lot of power with the correct preparation.

Of course, we know absolutely dick about the intent for this engine, so it's anybody's guess as to what combos would work best, but a 521+ c.i. stroker isn't working very hard to make 700 with aftermarket heads.

You are absolutely right about the last part. If he wants anything more than a time bomb, he needs to know what he's doing. That goes for LS and anything else.

FlexyTJ 05-01-2016 08:24 PM

Coyote(5.0L/4V) will do it easy swapping oil pump and timing gears just for added safety.


351W is tried and true albeit lower tech but would get you there too.


More potential with the coyote though; simply more airflow and rpm capability. To go north of 700-1000 you probably need aftermarket sleeves in the Coyote. To get there with a 351W you will be doing it with an aftermarket block so sleeves are cheaper :D

edit: I'm not really a big block guy so didn't mention any of those "recipes"....

double edit: Even the "lamest" Coyote turbo kits put out 750. Most are capable of >1000, assuming a built motor.

[486] 05-01-2016 08:26 PM

Flexy's a dork

GAA or go home

[486] 05-01-2016 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyredneckanyhow (Post 36606826)
My only bitch about an ls1 is that any fucktard with a socket set can put one in anything. It takes real talent to build an engine from the ground up to do what he's wanting to do.

everyone says this
when they haven't had a stupid engine swap project go to the scrapyard without having driven anywhere

As an aside, all the 460 builds I see use aftermarket pistons, what's up with the factory ones?

Dr.Danger 05-01-2016 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [486] (Post 36607450)
everyone says this
when they haven't had a stupid engine swap project go to the scrapyard without having driven anywhere

As an aside, all the 460 builds I see use aftermarket pistons, what's up with the factory ones?

You are aware that the stock pistons in most cases are 30+ year old cast assembly line quality?

Not exactly ideal for making reliable power. Especially since you're most likely going to bore at least .030 over in the rebuild.

TRW forged are about the bottom of the barrel for these builds. The draw back on those is they are pretty heavy, but they can handle a lot of abuse if you don't go too wild on stroke or keep the RPM down. If you're going stroker, the pin height changes and you're going to use a new piston anyway, along with Ford/Chevy/Pontiac 6.7 or 6.8" rods. The exception is the SVO/Motorsport cranks that still utilize the Ford 2.5" rod journals and 6.605" stock rod sizes, but they still need a new pin height.

FlexyTJ 05-01-2016 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [486] (Post 36607418)
Flexy's a dork

GAA or go home

? :confused::shaking:
And you are a nut swinging trolling fool?



The Coyote route won't be cheap but would be spectacular :grinpimp:

Ford Racing crates are seemingly between a production changeover to 15+ style motors at the moment and there seems to be some availability issues.

Used motors can be had on ebay for around $4k with ECU. A stock new crate will set you back more like $7k (still needs a control pack/harness/ecu). A boost ready "aluminator" (when available again) more like $12-14k but that would be 1000hp good to go out of the box.

Some turbo kits:

A popular single turbo, 1000hp kit:
JPC 2011-2014 Mustang GT Turbo Kit

popular twin kit but uses some Chinese stuff/cheaper hot side piping/also 1000hp capable:
2015 – 2016 Mustang GT 5.0 4v Twin Turbo System | On3Performance

Black Sheep 05-01-2016 09:01 PM

I remember when I was 15. which was last week blackflipoff2

FlexyTJ 05-01-2016 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [486] (Post 36607450)
everyone says this
when they haven't had a stupid engine swap project go to the scrapyard without having driven anywhere

As an aside, all the 460 builds I see use aftermarket pistons, what's up with the factory ones?

Wow, just wow. Who in their right mind would assemble ANY engine (after going to the trouble to machine it...) with STOCK pistons?? :confused: You are a complete fool, I had a hunch you were stupid but now you've proven beyond any shadow of a doubt :lmao:

You'd need a forged bottom end in any small block to make 700. Maybe BB stuff is stouter and you'd get away with a stock crank?:confused: Again big blocks are not what I know. You'd probably use forged/billet rods and you sure as fuck wouldn't hang some cast pistons on it, unless for a completely stock/ stock level HP build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Sheep (Post 36607714)
I remember when I was 15. which was last week blackflipoff2

Hopefully directed at 486fool...

just last week?? :flipoff2:

mj 05-01-2016 09:32 PM

junkyard search for a mark8, take the teksid block and B heads, new manley rods are only $600 at summit. gibtech pistons,add a s476 to feed it air. profit

rtbcoop 05-01-2016 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Danger (Post 36606818)
Wrong. Engine alone should not cost near that at those power levels. And no 460 stroker needs a turbo setup to get there, that's well documented power made a thousand ways naturally aspirated. It's just easier with 500+ cubes, and at a lower rpm. Fuck, guys are doing it on stock iron heads these days.

I am well aware that this power can be made naturally aspirated, but if that was an option, I wouldn't have specified a turbo setup. :flipoff2:

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyredneckanyhow (Post 36606826)
My only bitch about an ls1 is that any fucktard with a socket set can put one in anything. It takes real talent to build an engine from the ground up to do what he's wanting to do. The ls1 crowd is just as bad as the cummins swap crowd anymore.

True, but I am not overly concerned about that. This truck is eventually going to end up in the hands of someone who probably doesn't even know the difference between an LS and a Ford modular engine. All that they will probably care about is the "turbo" and the "700hp."

Quote:

Originally Posted by arse_sidewards (Post 36607002)
Is this a "$500 car, junkyard engine, Craigslist turbos, rebuild kits and spend the rest on Summit" build or is this a "I have lots of money and when I do something I go all out, aftermarket bling everything and I don't re-use a single part" build?

The answer you get depends on lot on what kind of build this is. If you're cheap then there's no replacement for displacement.

We are planning on dumping a significant amount of money into the vehicle but we would still like to be economical where possible. Ideally we would like to rebuild a junkyard engine with some upgraded parts but prebuilt crate engines aren't out of the question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Danger (Post 36607306)
Must have missed where he mentioned fuel injection.

...

Of course, we know absolutely dick about the intent for this engine, so it's anybody's guess as to what combos would work best, but a 521+ c.i. stroker isn't working very hard to make 700 with aftermarket heads.

No, I didn't mention it but some sort of EFI would be preferable (whether it be TBI or direct). As I said earlier, this is going to someone who probably knows nothing about the mechanics of an engine so it needs to be as idiot proof as possible.

This isn't going to be a racing or towing truck. It's just a toy that the owner can drive around town with and take out to Moab on the occasional weekend. It won't be ragged on but it still needs to be robust and require as little maintenance as possible (within reason for a 700hp truck...).

I am really just looking for some good advice as to which block to start with. When it comes to motors, I am a chevy or diesel guy. I know next to nothing about Fords.

[486] 05-01-2016 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlexyTJ (Post 36607834)
You'd need a forged bottom end in any small block to make 700.

http://i39.tinypic.com/bewnk5.jpg

Sometimes I forget how stupid and gullible you are. But then I remember.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Danger (Post 36607602)
You are aware that the stock pistons in most cases are 30+ year old cast assembly line quality?

Yeah, okay. Guess 5.3 it is for my next motor.


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