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Old 07-10-2017, 07:54 AM   #76 (permalink)
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so the reservoir fittings are regular SAE thread? I'd say just the hose fittings off the reservoir then
Yeah. 12 SAE/ORB at the reservoir. I was hoping that was the case at the pump can as well, but looking at the pic online, it looks like they welded it on there. I won't be able to use the 90 hose fitting off of that one. Hmm.

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Old 07-10-2017, 07:56 AM   #77 (permalink)
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Yep, that would work pretty well. That would place the res directly over the AC bracket, which is what I want for mounting purposes. All of the bends over that short distance had me a bit concerned, but perhaps it would be fine.
Yeah, you may need to route the hose into a "lightbulb" shape to keep the bend radius large enough to prevent kinking (remember that at high temps, the hose will collapse more easily than at whatever temp you install it), so find the spec on the hose for min bend radius and make sure you're above that.

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Just to touch on the flow rate comment - I need to design the supply around the flow rate of the pump, correct? With the small can on the back, it'll have to pull from the reservoir just as fast as it's feeding the box/cylinder to keep it from cavitating.

I don't know how to use the flow numbers as design criteria for minimum bend radius and orifice size, but it'll help shape my intuition anyways, haha.
I'd probably just take a look at the original application for the external reservoir cans before PSC modified it (GM Vans) and size the hose and fittings according to that. It is likely that GM did their due diligence and completed whatever flow rate calculations were required to properly size the hose. That, in addition to the fact that their run of hose from reservoir to can was much longer than yours will be, should give you plenty of safety factor.
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Old 07-10-2017, 08:06 AM   #78 (permalink)
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I also took a bunch more measurements from the cardone pump. These are all in MMs

As an FYI, these are just factory GM P-Pumps that have an adapter to extend the shaft and a mounting bracket very similar to the horseshoe PSC sells.

Here is the distance from the end of the pulley to outside of the accessory drive bracket. (same as the one I provided before, this one is just in MM vs Inches)


Here is my bracket after cutting it up.


the total shaft length on the pump. This is the same depth from the surface mounting area, to the end of the shaft.


The distance from the groove closest to the pump itself, to the end of the shaft


the step down portion of the shaft. I believe this is the section of the shaft that was added to the original P-Pumps by Cardone when these pumps were common. This is also supposedly where they sheer off and why this pump eventually got to where its extinct



This is the depth of the horseshoe on the cardone.



Bray, I'm not sure how these will all relate to the P-Pump you have now, but hopefully it will give you an idea of where the pulley needs to be to keep the belt from being slung off
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Old 07-10-2017, 12:45 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Good stuff Josh. I'll check mine once I get the pulley on it. It needs to come apart again so I can clearance the bracket more for the big ass fitting right now.

Ran home during lunch to ponder some more. I see a lot of installs online that don't attach the pump to the engine, so I'm thinking through that now. Right up front wouldn't be too bad. I think I can keep it under the hood and a longer looping hose should be sufficient to isolate the reservoir. Keeping it forward of the pump is a plus as well.



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Old 07-10-2017, 12:54 PM   #80 (permalink)
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I like that location a lot, so long as it doesn't protrude past the hood. Wouldn't be too difficult to make a bracket off the core support.
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Old 07-10-2017, 01:07 PM   #81 (permalink)
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looks good right there. I like it keeps all the steering related items in the same location. That is still below the hood right there?

Also, looks like the horseshoe is drastically thinner once all mounted up on the bracket, based on where the front of pump comes through the bracket.
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Old 07-10-2017, 01:12 PM   #82 (permalink)
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I agree on all accounts.

The pic is deceiving, but I should be able to keep the cap at or below the top of my air intake tube.

I'll snag some more measurements of the pump related stuff when I pull it out again.
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Old 07-11-2017, 11:20 PM   #83 (permalink)
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For reference, the horseshoe is right at 9.5mm thick.



The bracket is nearly 11mm.



Distance from the OEM pulley to the pump mounting face was 28mm. 28-11 gives me a target of 17mm between the pulley and the bracket.

Pressed the pulley on so it was flush with the end of the shaft and checked the distance. Right at 16mm. The pulley could go on further, but I'm comfortable with running it flush.





Installed it on the truck - needs a longer belt for sure. The tensioner was maxed out and the belt was rubbing on the body of the tensioner.

Bypassed the idler pulley and it was damn near good. I'll get a longer belt to maintain the idler, but this works for now.



Did some more fiddling with the reservoir placement, but it's dark and the pics suck. Still not 100% pleased yet. It's going to be tight, and mounting options are limited.
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Old 07-12-2017, 07:46 AM   #84 (permalink)
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Bray, you're running a later model 4.0 right? 95-97?

I know the pump mounting brackets are different, but I don't know if the accessory drives are at the same alignment, or if my pulley wasn't on far enough. (Front of bracket to pulley on yours is right at 16MM, distance from bracket to pulley on mine was 22MM.)
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Old 07-12-2017, 08:43 AM   #85 (permalink)
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Wow the Canadians have really taken over. All the tech is going metric......





















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Old 07-12-2017, 10:05 AM   #86 (permalink)
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Haha, I was waiting for the metric comments to start rolling in. I measured the metric hardware to secure the pump and got stuck on it.

Divide by 25.4 for the imperial equivalent.

Josh - My engine is a 97 OHV 4.0 from an explorer. All of the numbers I used are relative to my application. The PSC pulley on the GM pump is about 1mm (.039" ) closer to the bracket when installed flush with the shaft than my OEM arrangement.
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:22 AM   #87 (permalink)
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Not having the pulley aligned properly doesn't mean you'll slip the belt off (though if it's way off, that will happen). You're going to wear the belt, especially if there's a short span right before or after the misaligned pulley. Can you space the pulley off of flush with the pump shaft by 1mm to get to the 17mm you're shooting for?

Also, belt lengths should be measured a specific way if you don't actually want to use a belt to measure it. With that said, you could run a string the way you have it and then run the string around the idler as well and measure the difference between string lengths. Then just subtract that from your nominal belt length you're using now (usually you can tell by the part number - should have a mm length listed in the PN).


I'm guessing a 5mm longer belt will make most of the difference - it really doesn't take much adjustment to fix tensioner angles. You don't want it too loose such that the tensioner pulley is vibrating off of its dead stop.
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:34 AM   #88 (permalink)
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Belt tech!

I took a pic of my part number last night: 6K810. Typical belt for my engine without AC.

RockAuto says the length is 81.608". 6K870 is the number with AC. 87.592" length. Simply numbers for reference. Pretty big difference between the AC and non-AC lengths.

I can pull the pulley off a smidge to get my alignment dialed in for sure. I was concerned with losing the grip strength from the press fit by doing so, but I don't really know what's absolutely necessary either. Loctite is an option as well once I land on my ideal pulley position.
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Old 07-12-2017, 11:11 AM   #89 (permalink)
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You're only pulling the pulley from 100% engagement to like 90% engagement (or more), I think you'll be fine.

Curious to see what belt length you end up with. It'll probably be longer than I expected, I wasn't thinking about the difference in location of the pump's pulley.
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Old 07-12-2017, 01:13 PM   #90 (permalink)
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I ended up making my own bracket due to pump steering and steering box interference. And it was tough to get the right belt and bracket combo. I think I Made it three times and I'm still not 100% pleased with it.

I also found my psc pump stuck out a bit further so I just didn't press the pulley on all the way.
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Old 07-12-2017, 05:58 PM   #91 (permalink)
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I'll pull it off a bit to align everything as best as possible. There's a decent chamfer on the end of the shaft causing me to lose some grip length, but even with that and the cantilevered pulley I should still have 75-80% engagement.

Whipped up a quick bracket to see how things would set up front.



Pushed the res down to the weld, crumpled up some foil, and did a clearance test.

Before



After



Around 3/4" until it contacts the cap. The protruding vent is boning me too. I'd guess around 1/4" before vent contact. Confirmed with a level off of my air intake (air intake actually contacts the hood).



With this configuration and the fittings I have right now, I'm about 1" too low.

If I wanted to get crazy and cut the reservoir down, I could pick up 2" before getting into the internal filter. I don't like the loss of capacity though.



I'm starting to eyeball my hole saws.
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Old 07-12-2017, 08:07 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Ran to the parts store and picked up a couple belts. Looks like 6K820 fits pretty good. 81.96" long according to Rock Auto.




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Old 07-12-2017, 08:32 PM   #93 (permalink)
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I know I'm blowing up my own thread, but my Tapatalk user ID is different than my online user ID. I can't edit my Tapatalk posts on my desktop.

Anyways, I'm considering replacing the vent with one of these:

https://www.mcmaster.com/#1093k2/=18h16jk

I've been reading some builds where guys install radiator caps on their reservoirs to maintain head pressure. Others have run a line from their OBA through a regulator to maintain ~10lbs or so in their res. This little guy would work perfect. 7.5lb set pressure.

The positive pressure increases the supply pressure to the pump and reduces the chance for cavitation.

Reference: Link to 2015 Dookey Thread
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Old 07-12-2017, 08:34 PM   #94 (permalink)
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I'm starting to eyeball my hole saws.


Quitter


Also Mark from EF said he's not completely flush either on the pulley, and he's estimating around 15k miles since his conversion.

Good to know about the bracket. It is different than the older 4.0, but not sure how much different. Just so happens I have a newer one... imma do some testing for future readers
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:51 PM   #95 (permalink)
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I'm starting to eyeball my hole saws.
Come over to the dark side.

Seriously though I'd move the res towards the firewall first or hack some of the support structure out of the hood first. Lots of guys running jeep 4.0 mount them towards to brake booster most say they don't have problems. Jeep 4.0 pumps are really high on the motor especially in Cherokees.
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:55 PM   #96 (permalink)
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I know I'm blowing up my own thread, but my Tapatalk user ID is different than my online user ID. I can't edit my Tapatalk posts on my desktop.

Anyways, I'm considering replacing the vent with one of these:

https://www.mcmaster.com/#1093k2/=18h16jk

I've been reading some builds where guys install radiator caps on their reservoirs to maintain head pressure. Others have run a line from their OBA through a regulator to maintain ~10lbs or so in their res. This little guy would work perfect. 7.5lb set pressure.

The positive pressure increases the supply pressure to the pump and reduces the chance for cavitation.

Reference: Link to 2015 Dookey Thread


Does it sit any higher than the vent tube?
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Old 07-12-2017, 11:00 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Also, older 4.0 bracket (the ones that don't have the notch in the bottom from the factory) are 8MM thick instead of 11.

Sorry to keep making a mess of your thread Bray. Once I have it all identified and the setup in, noting the differences between the two setups, I'll clean all my posts up. Thanks for letting me stash them here
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Old 07-13-2017, 07:22 AM   #98 (permalink)
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Come over to the dark side.

Seriously though I'd move the res towards the firewall first or hack some of the support structure out of the hood first. Lots of guys running jeep 4.0 mount them towards to brake booster most say they don't have problems. Jeep 4.0 pumps are really high on the motor especially in Cherokees.
I've seen some mounts off of the brake boosters that look pretty slick. That's one option for sure, as the hood rises towards the cab. I'm not sure I'll be able to get 2" out of this though (1" to get level with the pump inlet, plus another inch to be safely above it). I also don't like that the reservoir would be so far behind the pump. I spend a lot of time on my rear bumper and I'd hate to burp the pump.

No hood support in the location up front. Pretty sure I'd have to punch it straight through to get any more height out of it.

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Does it sit any higher than the vent tube?
Nope. Overall height of the relief valve is 1/2". Should be shorter than the vent after it's threaded into the cap. I had to make a McMaster order last night anyways, so I went ahead and bought one. We'll see what it looks like when it comes in.

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Also, older 4.0 bracket (the ones that don't have the notch in the bottom from the factory) are 8MM thick instead of 11.

Sorry to keep making a mess of your thread Bray. Once I have it all identified and the setup in, noting the differences between the two setups, I'll clean all my posts up. Thanks for letting me stash them here
No worries man. I appreciate the flow of communication in here. Any additional organization will be for the benefit of future readers.
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Old 07-13-2017, 07:49 AM   #99 (permalink)
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Ran to the parts store and picked up a couple belts. Looks like 6K820 fits pretty good. 81.96" long according to Rock Auto.
Glad to see that you found a belt that should work!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bray D View Post
I know I'm blowing up my own thread, but my Tapatalk user ID is different than my online user ID. I can't edit my Tapatalk posts on my desktop.

Anyways, I'm considering replacing the vent with one of these:

https://www.mcmaster.com/#1093k2/=18h16jk

I've been reading some builds where guys install radiator caps on their reservoirs to maintain head pressure. Others have run a line from their OBA through a regulator to maintain ~10lbs or so in their res. This little guy would work perfect. 7.5lb set pressure.

The positive pressure increases the supply pressure to the pump and reduces the chance for cavitation.

Reference: Link to 2015 Dookey Thread
That's pretty interesting. Just know that the pressure will build up as slowly as the PS fluid heats up. So, on colder days, you might see more cavitation, potentially. I guess this would help heat up the fluid more quickly. Fluid level would also make a difference here.

Also, make sure all your connections are good. Using the AN fittings will definitely help to prevent leaks.

This brings me back to the "Why don't the OEMs do this?" question. I always ask myself that when trying something different. Generally if it's obviously cost-driven, it's an easier decision. Here, I'm not entirely sure that it's cost driven. I'm not entirely that it isn't...

That said - take a look at the cap that came with your porkchop reservoir and see if there's a pressure spring seal on that. I believe they hold a little bit of pressure, but not sure how much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bray_D View Post
I'm starting to eyeball my hole saws.
(See comment below)

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Come over to the dark side.

Seriously though I'd move the res towards the firewall first or hack some of the support structure out of the hood first. Lots of guys running jeep 4.0 mount them towards to brake booster most say they don't have problems. Jeep 4.0 pumps are really high on the motor especially in Cherokees.
Agreed. Is there any room for removing some inner hood structure (without cutting into the outer hood skin) to give you the clearance you want?
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Old 07-13-2017, 07:56 AM   #100 (permalink)
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I've seen some mounts off of the brake boosters that look pretty slick. That's one option for sure, as the hood rises towards the cab. I'm not sure I'll be able to get 2" out of this though (1" to get level with the pump inlet, plus another inch to be safely above it). I also don't like that the reservoir would be so far behind the pump. I spend a lot of time on my rear bumper and I'd hate to burp the pump.
If you did move the reservoir behind the pump, you could always orient it so that the hose faces out the back of the reservoir - that way you'd have a "trap" to prevent air bubbles from flowing into the hose between the resi and the pump.

I will mention that cutting down the capacity, while not ideal, is probably not a major concern as long as you have good cooling in the system. You've got a relatively light rig and the 1.75" ram will do you even more favors.

For reference, I have a 1.5" ram on my truck with the stock porkchop reservoir and I never hear any cavitation (internal pressure-relief, yes - but no whining). You've got 36% more force (at the same pressure), smaller contact patch and less weight than I do, so your system should definitely run much cooler.

Just make sure you have enough capacity to account for the ram extending and compressing, plus a little extra to keep everything nice and wet.
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