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Old 03-19-2019, 12:40 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I'd prefer a ZF5 or close-ratio 4spd (T19A) with the 460. Never had an auto I liked....

Be aware the 80s/90s D60s with leafs typically incurs rubbing issues with 35-37" tires on 'normal' offset wheels. It lacks kingpins (more highsteer options), and also the better brakes found 95.5-97.

For coils, I do like the old school radius arm, or the 05+ setup. Seems like the wrong diff to start grafting that stuff onto. A simple link kit and coilovers probably suits that diff best.
Close ratio T19 only has a 4.xx:1 granny low, which really limits it's offroad ability imo. And having run an NP435 for several years (T18 just swapped in a couple weeks ago) I can tell you that the C6 that was there originally was much, much faster and offered better performance. I love my manual, but that truck in particular will be a lot faster, and a lot more fun with the C6. It will also be a lot easier on parts with that kind of power.

A stock 460 is damn near at the torque limit of a ZF-5 and why I stayed with a 4 speed. And they're damn expensive now and rare to find with the 460 bell too.
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Old 03-19-2019, 01:24 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I have ported D3s on the truck but never tore into the short block. I sold some D0VE I had and will just do flat tops later like you are intending. I totally get the snow ball effect, but I've seen some good deals on used heads as well. Edelbrocks are overpriced new but they also use stock valve locations if you come across a used set. Oh, and A429s.

I have the AFR 280s on my car engine. Very nice heads indeed. My pistons are cut for AFR valve position but lower lift cams like you will be using for torque actually clear with existing SCJ cut pistons, which I've seen deals for many times. That info came out after I purchased my pistons. Naturally, all the good used head deals came up right after I purchased too.

In the end, it's fun to surprise someone with a reworked stock BBF engine. Even the D3VE heads have a ton of potential. More than most any other stock iron passenger car cylinder head from those years.

Oh, and sweet digs. Love the crushed oil pan shelf.
Thanks, It nice to have a shop with a lift. Building it consumed my nights and weekends for a few years now. Ready to work on something else like this old Ford.

The crushed van pan is from the 460. Not sure how many beers were on board when idea came to mount on the wall, but enough.

Yes thanks for sharing. I looked hard for SCJ pistons on the premise that they would work with mild cam. Most all are for stroker applications. Many are no longer available (like Probe). Trying to get motor done for 5k. On paper it can be done but we all know how that goes.
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Old 03-19-2019, 01:40 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I'd probably go radius arm for the build you've described. It will be a little more predictable on the street but can still flex quite well if done right.

I've had both setups on my FSB, with the same springs and shocks even so pretty good comparison.

The radius arm is more streetable. My upper, or 3rd link, is on top of the diff so its offset to the driver side. The truck wants to pivot around the the off-centered 3rd link so on hard acceleration the truck leans a little to the driver side and on hard braking it leans a bit to the passenger side. I find it predictable and the geometry is on (links and steering) so it tracks straight and doesn't try to change lanes on you, but it wouldn't be great to just toss the keys to anyone without experience, and I wouldn't want to tow much with it. My rear springs are soft too so that doesn't bode well for towing either.

Because you mentioned street manners, wife maybe driving, and ability to tow, I'd say radius arms.

As others have said here there are some good aftermarket solutions like Duff, Bloody Knuckle. Or you could build something, plenty of good builder parts out there. At any rate, if its done right you can get a lot of flex out of a radius arm set up.

I'v resealed my 205 twice and it still leaks (seems they all do) so maybe don't listen to me... but I used a thin RTV layer on all the mating surfaces and permatex thread sealer on the bolts, since most of the holes are not blind, as you have noticed.
Hmm, thanks for the feedback. Good points. Either way I want to use a builder kit with DOM for a simple/clean look.
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:30 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I looked for a long time at a variety of doner trucks for either a complete drivetrain or frame swap including superdutys. The wheel base is 6" shorter on the 72 so not a big deal. I also looked at many frame swapped bumps and while they look OK from the outside, it's just not for me. It's difficult to blend 1960 and 2000+ technology together, well.
Open the hood and it's like 'oh I see what happened here'. Drapes don't match the carpet. She looks good with closes on but when you get home you find quite the surprise!

I agree the 6.2 and more specifically the trans would be a great performer. If The goal was a DD the 6.2 would be the right choice.
I guess I'm after a specific look, I want to keep the old school factory look as much as possible. The old 385 series iron will look at home, with absolute minimum wires, hoses and whatnot. I like the look of the bump instrument cluster, the modern one would look out of place to me.

So really it's a vanity thing. Same curse that complicates my life in many other ways.

I also really like the sound of a big inch push rod motor. The OHC Fords sound good too but not the best fit for a bump. In my terminator cobra, yes.

6" isn't bad, most of these big tire low lift builds push the front axle forward 2", then you could add a thin inch been cab and bed to keep from contacting, then when you do your trimming on the rear wheel wells, favor the back side a little more. Or buy the cclb chassis on cl in phx and shorten it. It could be done really well, and look really nice, if planned, or hack if rushed. You could run the 460 in that chassis, or find an exhaust you like on a mod motor but if it's gotta be a 385 to make you happy, it's your money, and I'll watch your build
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Old 03-20-2019, 10:54 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Close ratio T19 only has a 4.xx:1 granny low, which really limits it's offroad ability imo. And having run an NP435 for several years (T18 just swapped in a couple weeks ago) I can tell you that the C6 that was there originally was much, much faster and offered better performance. I love my manual, but that truck in particular will be a lot faster, and a lot more fun with the C6. It will also be a lot easier on parts with that kind of power.

A stock 460 is damn near at the torque limit of a ZF-5 and why I stayed with a 4 speed. And they're damn expensive now and rare to find with the 460 bell too.
Sounds like you know what you want and have weighed alternatives. Close-ratios and tcase lo works well for me.

I like ZF5's... never found anything particularly weak about them. The diesel and smallblock patterns are most sought-after here... 460 being more common; go figure.
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:00 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Totally get the old school build type and the sound of the big inch motor. Was just thinking of your list you want out of the truck and the 05+ superduty seems like a good shortcut to most of it, further blasphemy would be use a 05+ V10 truck lol.

On the radius arm vs 3-link I'll throw in my vote for radius arm, pretty much the streetability of it over 3-link. I dont see anything wrong with running a disk\drum setup either since it worked for how many years.
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Old 03-20-2019, 03:23 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Totally get the old school build type and the sound of the big inch motor. Was just thinking of your list you want out of the truck and the 05+ superduty seems like a good shortcut to most of it, further blasphemy would be use a 05+ V10 truck lol.

On the radius arm vs 3-link I'll throw in my vote for radius arm, pretty much the streetability of it over 3-link. I dont see anything wrong with running a disk\drum setup either since it worked for how many years.
Haha, blasphemy would be a Dodge V-10

Thanks again for everyone's feedback and ideas. Don't mean to come across as a know-it-all that has it all figure out, cuz I don't. I realize I'm trying to create something that could have been built in the 80s and technology has since moved far ahead.... Kind of like my music of choice.

Anyhow going down radius arm rat hole, I have only found one vendor that has brackets that also have shock/coilover provisions, ballistic. The vertical separation is 7", others are more. I could make my own too but trying to be realistic with how much time I really have. I assume that keeping the coilover mount as low as possible to axle is preferred.

Other question is how to best angle the brackets/links. Given the frame to axle width difference, I need around 10-12* mounts. Assuming I can just grind the inner bracket's axle tube notch and weld them on at whatever angle I need. I plan to use a bushed sleeves for the 4 axle end joints. This would allow the sleeve to be 90* to the link tube. Or is it better to have axle brackets straight and weld sleeves on at an angle?
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72 F-250 Explorer 2WD to 4WD conversion 460, C6, NP205, D60, 10.25
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Old 03-20-2019, 07:52 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Same on sounding like a know it all man, its not bad to throw ideas around though.

On the angled mounts vs angled sleeves I wouldnt see a big deal with either setup. I would probably just install the axle brackets as they come and angle the sleeves so the bushings are all running parallel to axle, again I dont see any reason that they need to be like that but why modify brackets that you already paid for.

Looking on their site it looks like you have 3 options for radius arm brackets at different prices for a coilover setup.
$20 simple plate "radius arm brackets" that come as just 2 flat plates meaning one side bracket- cheap but axle is in center of the vertical separation so lose clearance
$70 "flat bottom radius arm brackets" come as a pair ,flat bottom with same 7" separation and have a small connector plate- better clearance underneath but at the cost of taking up more of your up travel and you could still mount coilover where you want with a separate bracket.
$100 "radius arm coilover mount" pretty much same as above but already come with the added tabs for mounting the coilover directly above the axle centerline and inline with the radium arms- probably the quickest setup but have same up travel clearance problems and your kinda married to where they decided to put the coilover tabs unless you modify them (and why not just save $30 then and get cheaper mounts)

I would print out their picture of the tabs and do some cardboard mock ups to see if you run into clearance issues with the flat bottom brackets at your desired ride height.

I will say I have bought from ballistic even after hearing the horror stories because I was cheap\poor and they had the brackets I wanted at a decent price. I had 0 problems with them on 2 different orders of 4 brackets and something like 8 sets of bushings.
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Old 03-21-2019, 07:13 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I also buy from ballistic, they're 20 min from my house, the kid at the counter is always helpful, and I'm more of a farmer than a fabricator, I need to hold the piece in my hands before I buy it
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Old 03-21-2019, 01:44 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Are the standard poly bushings like this
https://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com...t_Code=BUSHDOM
the right material for axle end radius arm setup? Haven't found anything in rubber....

Is there any advantage to having upper axle mount inboard like a stock Heep type front end vs on top of on another? Seems like the torsional bind scenario is the same.

Since we all love math let's looks at bushing deflection in hypothetical case:
Arm length 48"
Suspension travel = 10"

So one wheel up 5" other down 5"
5" over 48" long link = tan-1(5/48) = 6*

Given 7" separation at axle end, tan(6*) x 7" = 0.75"
There are 2 bushings on each arm, so half deflection in opposite directions each at 3/8".
Will poly bushings allow this? Seems plausible but I don't have any actual experience.

Plan C is a 5 link / parallel 4 link + trac bar. Found some chassis brackets for this. I've been avoiding the link calculator rat hole. Either of the 3 options are roughly the same cost.
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72 F-250 Explorer 2WD to 4WD conversion 460, C6, NP205, D60, 10.25
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Last edited by rattle snake; 03-21-2019 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 03-22-2019, 08:22 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I think a bushing like the ruffstuff one you posted would work well on the axle end.

IIRC the jeeps inboard that upper link due to clearance issues with the coil spring, you run out of room with all that stuff on a narrow axle.

Are you thinking of running bushings on both end of your links/arms or heim on one end and bushing on the other? Either will work, a heim might allow for a little less bind if you really start pulling some flex for bushing deflection reasons you've discussed. That said, yes its normal for bushings to deflect a bit on a link set up like this.

Think about rear leaves. The whole system is pretty rigid except for the bushings.

A parallel 4 link would be awesome for street-a-bility and tune-a-bility but harder to package and you'd have to do more math but that doesn't seem to scare you busting out a tangent on us here

I still vote radius arms for the build the way you've described it.
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Old 03-22-2019, 01:47 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Thanks for the info and RA vote Dan.
I plan to run bushings on the axle end and heims on the chassis end to allow caster adjustment.

The truck will see some sand, I would think a 5 link would perform better in this case, less hop from load/unload. I live close to ET motorpark that has sand drags/mud bog/truck pull events. Might join the rednecks and give it a go. Don't really see a downside to the 5 link, but I'm obviously no expert.
I've plugged my rough numbers into the link calc, but don't have enough knowledge to make much sense of it, yet...

Anyhow got the TC buttoned up;




Wrote up an add to sell the FE390/C6. Going to try to sell them as a pair, while still running/installed in the truck. Once their gone I can strip the frame and start to mock up things. Plan to pull cab and bed to make everything accessible. Where put all the shit is another story.

My dad was able to make it out from WA, so I plan to send cylinder heads back with him to PAM to get ported/machined/assembled. With this commitment I can order pistons and get block machined locally.
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Old 03-22-2019, 01:52 PM   #38 (permalink)
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How much for fe/c6?

In case my 5.0 t5 hot rod plan goes south
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Old 03-26-2019, 02:36 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Pondering that now... Probably list it for $1200-ish. Few days ago there was a FE360/C6 combo for $800.
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Old 03-26-2019, 02:56 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Was able to read and understand just enough to be dangerous with link calculator. This article has some good info for front end use. Given my rough mock-up measurements I can estimate enough to get anti-dive acceptable and have only one unknown, the upper link chassis end vertical location. If I use an adjustable bracket with 3 or more holes it should allow enough adjustment once the truck is built. Anyhow considering a 5 link if I can convince myself upper links will clear frame OK.
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Old 04-29-2019, 04:44 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Not much progress lately. Stripped heads to bare castings and sent them off to PAM for port/rebuild. Finished tear down of 460. Crank has not be machined before like block, but will need to be. Plan to take block, crank and whatnot to machine shop soon and get motor project going forward.

Finally got a hold of recommended trans guy. He mentioned that it needs to have 'big drums'.
Anyone know if 78-79 bronco C6 with 351m/400 bell would have the large ones?

Tires.
Been looking for a used set of 38-40s to get get started but no luck so far. Probably have to just buy what I need, so maybe you pirates can help recommend rubbers for my application.
Considering 17" wheel, seems popular and can get steel beadlock.
Seems that going over 38" is 121Q 3195# rating. Most 40s are load range c at 35psi which isn't ideal but should work.

Here's what I have looked at so far
Swamper SSR 38x15.5R17LT (no 40" ssr)
Swamper IROC radial 39.5x13.5R17LT (expensive)

GY MTR 40X13.50R17LT
GY MTR 38X14.50R17LT

Toyo MT 40X13.50R17LT
Toyo MT 38X14.50R16 or 38X13/15.50R18LT (no 17" wheel for 38")
Nitto 40x13.50R17LT (35psi/range C)

BFG KM3 39X13.50R17

Milestar patagonia 40X13.50R17LT (cheap!)
Milestar patagonia 38X13.50R17LT

The IROC are sexy but $625, whereas the milestar 40s are only $280...
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Old 04-30-2019, 08:11 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Wrote up an add to sell the FE390/C6. Going to try to sell them as a pair, while still running/installed in the truck.
Any luck on that? I'm trying to sell a 390/ C-6 combo. I guess around here the FE guys are all talk. Fresh bottom end E-Brock intake truck headers and an almost new TCI C-6 maybe a couple hundred miles on them. can't give them away lol. Oh well there's plenty of room for them to sit in my shop.
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Old 04-30-2019, 01:34 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Any luck on that? I'm trying to sell a 390/ C-6 combo. I guess around here the FE guys are all talk. Fresh bottom end E-Brock intake truck headers and an almost new TCI C-6 maybe a couple hundred miles on them. can't give them away lol. Oh well there's plenty of room for them to sit in my shop.
Haven't posted add yet. Been trolling FE motors on phx CL and there are not many out there. Good luck with selling yours.
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Old 04-30-2019, 10:48 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Old school looking 4x4 with modern capabilities.

Mock-up and measurements for 40s. Going to section and stretch wheel well forward to keep factory look. Move axle forward inch or 2. Cross-over steering.
I dont understand why you want to retain a factory look, when you are planning on 40s..

seems to me like a waste of money

Oh.. and I didnt read everyone's responses, so excuse me if someone already brought this up..
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Old 05-01-2019, 06:21 AM   #45 (permalink)
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I dont understand why you want to retain a factory look, when you are planning on 40s..

seems to me like a waste of money

Oh.. and I didnt read everyone's responses, so excuse me if someone already brought this up..
He is referring to the fender opening not the whole truck. Keep up with the conversation.
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Old 05-01-2019, 06:51 AM   #46 (permalink)
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I dont understand why you want to retain a factory look, when you are planning on 40s..

seems to me like a waste of money

Oh.. and I didnt read everyone's responses, so excuse me if someone already brought this up..
The work to keep a factory look and adding big tires is always worth the effort.

To me there is no better compliment to a shit ton of work than "You just put bigger tires on it"
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