Stone Bear ~ opening constructive dialog & an offer to make amends - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > Land Use and Trails > Fordyce Creek
Notices

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-22-2013, 10:45 AM   #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Member # 391586
Location: Eagle Lakes Road, Cisco Grove
Posts: 10
Stone Bear ~ opening constructive dialog & an offer to make amends

Greetings,

I would like to introduce myself ... I am Elizabeth, one of the residents and stewards of the Stone Bear property on Eagles Lakes Road, (which borders the Fordyce Trailhead in the Tahoe National Forest). I have read most all of the post here on this forum concerning the property and various activities with regards to this property. I am choosing to come into your community now as an informal ambassador ... to hopefully ease some of the miscommunications and to try to re-start with fresh relations.

I am offering to open respectful dialog to clear up as many of the issues as possible ~ hearing from all sides. I hope that we can keep focused on moving forward in a good way and to keep the conversation constructive.

That said, from the postings on this forum, I can see there are a few reoccurring themes to the conflicts that I will first list and then will address as best I can - either now or in a future posting. Please feel free to add to this list any important topics I may not have mentioned here.

- Road use: Existing summer easement access for the Fordyce Creek trailhead and winter road use along Eagle Lakes Road.

- Use of the Stone property by the 4x4 community for parking and cabin rentals.

- Concerns and frustrations regarding the music events of the last summer:

- Strained relations between Michael, the owner of the property and the general 4x4 community, as well as specific posters in this group.

- How to move forward as allies, rather that adversaries


:::::::::::::::
- Road use: Existing summer easement access for the Fordyce Creek trailhead and winter road use along Eagle Lakes Road.

With winter on its way, we would rather not wait for snow on the ground and for tempers to flare for this to become an volatile situation again. We are in conversations with our Nevada County supervisor on this issue and we would very much like to hear suggestions from you as to how we can find a workable solution for all concerned - a solution that will protect our ability to run our business without obstruction and help your community be able to enjoy what you love to do. If you all are willing, I would like to personally head up a thread on this forum to get feedback regarding this situation, in order for this challenge to be resolved well.

- Use of the Stone property by the 4x4 community for parking and cabin rentals.
The cabins have always been open to all guests regardless of what they wear, what they drive, what flavor are their politics, or how they choose to play. What we do ask is that ALL of our guest be respectful of the land, our other guests and all the hard work that has been put into the business over many years. We also expect ALL of our guest to adhere to a certain code of conduct that we have established for our property.

We have always been aware of the potential positive and mutually beneficial relationship existing between our business and the 4x4 community and have always been very happy to rent cabins out to any of your group who is interested. We would even be willing to craft fun adventures for the wives and children who are not interested in going out to the trails. We are just not willing to rent to your group at the exclusion of any other affinity group.

We do allow for safe parking of your tow rigs on our property for $20 a night.

While the store idea is an excellent concept, it is a full business in itself; this is an expansion we have talked about for years, it is not something we have been able to manage to get going. We have our hands full just manning the cabin business. May be someone in your community would be interesting in starting a store on the land?

We truly are very happy to help you have a better experience in the Tahoe National Forest by providing a safe place to park your tow rigs and by renting cabins to your family, and as a token of good faith and atonement for a loud summer, we would like to offer the members of The Friends of the Fordyce a very special cabin rental rate between now and the end of the year (excluding the holiday periods of Thanksgiving, Xmas and New Years) of $75 per cabin per night. Also, if you book 4 cabins together as a group, then we will give an even further 'Friends and Family' discount of $50 per cabin per night (tax added separately). At this price you would bring your own linen and supplies.

- Concerns and frustrations regarding the music events of this last summer:

First of all, we sincerely apologize to every camping neighbor who had been disturbed or lost sleep over the summer by the music from our events, and especially to kdub0013 (Zeus of the Sluice) who had such a bad experience with his child's first experience in the forest. I personally greatly regret that this happened, because one of my big causes is motivation children to get out into the woods for their lifetime.

Secondly, we will not be holding all night music events of this type in the future. We did not really even seek them out this last summer, but the unexpected turn of events did allow us to stay in business. For this we are grateful. Although we are not interested in repeating the experience.

As an explanation ... early in the season, after a terrible winter financially, there was the opportunity to start booking music events ... we some what naively started saying yes. We were approached by one promoter, then suddenly, the word was out and we had a full summer line-up. It seemed like a fortunate windfall, and in many ways it was, however, it was a very challenging summer for us as well.

After we had committed to the events and accepted deposits, we were really not fully aware of how loud the music would be at 3:00am or how far the sound of the bass would travel down the canyon. The producers and DJ's seemed to have the idea that they were in the middle of the forest with no one else around. Even as we explained that we did have neighbors to consider and asked the producers to turn down the bass, it was still a struggle for us with the volume, because for the people who love to dance to loud music, also love to dance to loud music through the night. While this is not our particular passion, this summer we did end up hosting a community who is committed to this activity. So be it. We have certainly learned that this is not really our style of business.

Just so you all know, we were the site managers renting out the property and not the event producers. Also,we were sure to work only with established, reputable producers (there were several we turned away). We required them all to carry insurance; to have security and medics on site and on duty at all time; to have minors accompanied by a parent, to maintain regulation fire lanes at all times; to observe posted FS fire restrictions; to observe our own fire rules which were more restrictive than the FS; to have the county requirements of porta-potties and other health codes met; to educate all their staff on our emergency evacuation plan; to park all vehicles nose out in case of evacuation; to clean up every thing left behind ... and there was no sale of alcohol.

We did have several visits from the Nevada Co. Sheriffs and Cal Fire throughout the summer. We willingly gave them tours of the events and they found no issues.

We also instructed all of the event producers on the existence of the easement and made it clear that the 4x4 users of the Tahoe National Forest had the right of way to pass around our gate and down to the So Yuba via the bypass road. They were each clearly responsible for communicating this information to their volunteer staff. Admittedly, we did have a few cases of bad communication with the gate staff of the events, who seemed to be unclear about how to act like good neighbors themselves and they made already tense relations worse by their actions. They were promptly re-educated on the rules of the OHV easement. In one case the young man was asked to leave the property.

While most of the 4 wheelers passed through without incident, we did receive some very, rude unprovoked behavior from people in 4x4s ... not so much on the way out, but more when they were coming on to the property. Just some really bad 'yahoo' form was demonstrated including: an incident with three drunk men with a gun, Michael nearly being maliciously run over by a person in a 4x4, our gate being rammed by a person in a 4x4, other observed destruction of our property theft, and vandalism by people driving 4x4's. This is just the truth of the matter and what we have had to deal with from some rogues driving off road vehicles.

But in all fairness, there also were several times that some very nice folks rolled up in their 4x4's just to see what was happening ... they were invited into the event and they ended up having a very good time with some very fun people enjoying life in the woods. I think they found that the people inside the events ~ hippies or not ~ were not really whacked out on drugs and not even really that dirty, in fact they were not that different than themselves in their early twenties.

- Strained relations between Michael, the owner of the property and the general 4x4 community, as well as with specific posters in this forum.
I have know Michael for many, many years and he is a very good man with a whole lot of heart, who works harder than anyone I have every met. He is carrying a great deal of load on his shoulders as the property owner of this land. While he may get angry at what he feel is unfair treatment and does not always know how to deal with his frustrations diplomatically... he is definitely not crazy. He is always willing to learn from his mistakes and will always find a way to move forward.

What is the old indian saying? "Don't judge a man until you have walked a year in his moccasins". It does seem like there has been a whole lot of judgement has been flying on all sides and it seems like it is now time to move beyond this unproductive approach to this challenge. I will say that I am very heartened to see that there several balanced voices of reason amongst the harsh critics on this forum, and I thank you for your equanimity.

For the most part, we accept people as they show up, but some times this is very difficult when the bad apples arrive. We do know that there are really only a very few true bad apples in ANY particular group. For our part, we vow to do a better job in not treating every person who comes down the road based on a few bad experiences in the past.

- How to move forward as allies, rather that adversaries.
This remains to be seen, but we are hoping that this letter is a first step to a good conversation in future forum threads. Please know that we are ready to begin to engage your community in the process and let us know if there are some amongst you who are ready to take these steps with us.

Many thanks, Elizabeth
Stone Bear Clan Mama is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-22-2013, 09:47 PM   #2 (permalink)
flamethrower
 
Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75270
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,542
Send a message via Yahoo to Bebe
Hi Elizabeth - I will be there tomorrow. I would love to meet with you. What's a good time for you? I can come by in the afternoon when we head off the trail - or we can meet another time.

Let me know - I can be reached at bebehumr at gmail dot com.

Thanks!!!

Bebe
__________________
What's all the Hub-bub about Blue Stars???
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haulin the Groceries AND Haulin the MAIL
Bebe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Old 11-22-2013, 10:35 PM   #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Member # 23499
Location: NV
Posts: 79
Send a message via ICQ to IceWolf
i will call bullshit on the music. i was there in july and there was no event taking place. just music blasting from 7pm until 8 am. just harassing anyone camping in the area.
__________________
ALL GAVE SOME!!!!!!

SOME GAVE ALL!!!!!!!
IceWolf is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-23-2013, 04:30 AM   #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Member # 391586
Location: Eagle Lakes Road, Cisco Grove
Posts: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bebe View Post
Hi Elizabeth - I will be there tomorrow. I would love to meet with you. What's a good time for you? I can come by in the afternoon when we head off the trail - or we can meet another time.

Let me know - I can be reached at bebehumr at gmail dot com.

Thanks!!!

Bebe
Thank you very much Bebe for your positive reply. I am very glad to meet with you if we can work out the timing. I will send you an email.

I hope that you have fun on the trail ... it is clear, cold and windy, although the wind is suppose to die down today. We had several trees fall in the big winds yesterday (two that just missed my trailer). So be prepared, you may come across some down trees across the trails.

All the best, Elizabeth
Stone Bear Clan Mama is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-23-2013, 04:44 AM   #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Member # 391586
Location: Eagle Lakes Road, Cisco Grove
Posts: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceWolf View Post
i will call bullshit on the music. i was there in july and there was no event taking place. just music blasting from 7pm until 8 am. just harassing anyone camping in the area.
Ok Ice Wolf ... Thank you for the comment. I can see how you might think that ... but I can 95% guarantee you that if the music was playing throughout the night then there WAS an event. If you could give me the date, then I could give you a definite yay or nay to your complaint. Honestly, those of us living on the land, were not too thrilled by the all night bass either and it was most certainly NOT our practice to play music at 3:00am just to harass people if we were not working with an event. I am very sorry that you have that impression. Personally, I am not even a fan of most Electric Dance Music ... I much prefer live music.

If there was NOT an event, then the only other possibility would be that there had been other campers at the lower property playing music very loud from their camp out of their own music system. If this was the case during the time when you were there, then we (the management of Stone Bear) most certainly would like to have known about it because we would have addressed it at the time.

Last edited by Stone Bear Clan Mama; 11-23-2013 at 05:58 AM.
Stone Bear Clan Mama is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-23-2013, 10:48 PM   #6 (permalink)
flamethrower
 
Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75270
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,542
Send a message via Yahoo to Bebe
Elizabeth,

Sorry we didn't get to meet today, but I look forward to when we do.

If anyone has any messages or concerns they would like to pass on to me prior to my next conversation with Elizabeth...you know how to reach me.

All the best,

Bebe
__________________
What's all the Hub-bub about Blue Stars???
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haulin the Groceries AND Haulin the MAIL
Bebe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-25-2013, 07:43 AM   #7 (permalink)
FOF
 
kdub0013's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Member # 103588
Location: Garden Valley, CA
Posts: 8,193
Let me try again after actually reading your entire post Elizabeth, please excuse my jumping the gun comments.

First off I thank you for coming forward and starting a more positive dialog. No need for apologies my daughter was only 1 at the time so she won't remember But my family and I aside I think we will all be happy knowing the all nighter's will be done, not that we don't all deserve a piece of nature.

I cannot touch on the other issues because I have never personally had dealings with Michael but it sounds like now we have you to work with and that is great.

I look forward to meeting you out there one of these day and again thank you for the letter to everyone.
__________________
COMBAT VET - USMC 01-05

FRIENDS OF FORDYCE

Last edited by kdub0013; 11-25-2013 at 07:45 AM.
kdub0013 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-26-2013, 02:29 PM   #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Member # 391586
Location: Eagle Lakes Road, Cisco Grove
Posts: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bebe View Post
Elizabeth,

Sorry we didn't get to meet today, but I look forward to when we do.

If anyone has any messages or concerns they would like to pass on to me prior to my next conversation with Elizabeth...you know how to reach me.

All the best,

Bebe
No problem Bebe! I will also let you know I am heading in your direction and maybe we can connect then. Thank you for being willing to be a liaison, that will be very helpful.

Elizabeth
Stone Bear Clan Mama is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-26-2013, 02:36 PM   #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Member # 391586
Location: Eagle Lakes Road, Cisco Grove
Posts: 10
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdub0013 View Post
Let me try again after actually reading your entire post Elizabeth, please excuse my jumping the gun comments.

First off I thank you for coming forward and starting a more positive dialog. No need for apologies my daughter was only 1 at the time so she won't remember But my family and I aside I think we will all be happy knowing the all nighter's will be done, not that we don't all deserve a piece of nature.

I cannot touch on the other issues because I have never personally had dealings with Michael but it sounds like now we have you to work with and that is great.

I look forward to meeting you out there one of these day and again thank you for the letter to everyone.
Kdub0013, (do you like to be called Zeus?) I am very grateful to know that you are willing to accept our apologies, as you have been one of the more consistent posters on the topic of the music events. Thank you. You are welcome to come on by the property for a tour.

Happy trails, Elizabeth
Stone Bear Clan Mama is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-26-2013, 02:49 PM   #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Member # 391586
Location: Eagle Lakes Road, Cisco Grove
Posts: 10
I am very hopeful to move the needle for positive co-existence on Eagle Lakes Road. I am especially excite to connect with Bebe because she seems willing to be a liaison for the 4x4 community.

I do know for sure that most all of the people using the Fordyce Trail are good decent reasonable people ... I am not sure if you are involved with them, but I really like how the Friends of the Fordyce represent themselves as a group.

I also understand that much of this problem is because there seems to be a perception of separation and "otherness" from within the our respective communities that is currently keeping us at odds, and because we have not properly or respectfully introduced ourselves to each other. Up until now, none of us have really reached out to the other side to create authentic good relationships, and I believe that this is the effort that would go a long way in preventing more misunderstandings (on both sides).

We are hoping that this is not the enduring story between us. Also, we are really wanting to work the land use and road challenges out with the 4x4 community, the county and Forest Service and ourselves all together for a win/win/win/win. We need to all listen to what each other's needs and desired outcomes are for future use. We certainly need to hear from you all. Please feel free to let me know your thoughts or communicate with Bebe and please know that your ideas will be taken into consideration. I will work with Bebe to plan a way to coordinate a "way forward". We will post some ideas here on the forum in the near future

You are all very welcome to come visit and please do consider the 4x4 special cabin offer mentioned in my original posting.

In appreciation, Elizabeth
Stone Bear Clan Mama is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2013, 09:25 AM   #11 (permalink)
FOF
 
kdub0013's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Member # 103588
Location: Garden Valley, CA
Posts: 8,193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Bear Clan Mama View Post
Kdub0013, (do you like to be called Zeus?) I am very grateful to know that you are willing to accept our apologies, as you have been one of the more consistent posters on the topic of the music events. Thank you. You are welcome to come on by the property for a tour.

Happy trails, Elizabeth
No that is just the label pirate has for people under their names, you can call me whatever you want

Yeah I was fired up for a bit there but it's all behind us now and looks like forward movement is upon us. Now that I know I won't get beat down by a mad max clan of hippies I may swing by My wife has wanted to come check that place out anyway. Thanks again!

Keith
__________________
COMBAT VET - USMC 01-05

FRIENDS OF FORDYCE
kdub0013 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2013, 10:00 AM   #12 (permalink)
H Rated
 
jethrodeg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Member # 36099
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 1,737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Bear Clan Mama View Post
Strained relations between Michael, the owner of the property and the general 4x4 community, as well as with specific posters in this forumto this challenge.
How does Michael factor into the “peaceful coexistence”? You come across as a very reasonable and understanding person but my concern is Michael and his interaction with anybody other than one of his paying customers. The winter time ELR confrontations seems to be the catalyst to the issues the general public has had with him. What are your plans for plowing the public road and to avoid a repeat of confrontations like we've had in the past?
__________________



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Last edited by jethrodeg; 11-27-2013 at 10:03 AM.
jethrodeg is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2013, 10:09 AM   #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
RCKRATZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Member # 2485
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 3,919
Send a message via Yahoo to RCKRATZ
Part of the issue I see is that anyone with a 4wd is lumped into "the 4 wheelers."

As Friends of Fordyce we do try to represent as many 4 wheelers as possible, but I would venture a guess that 99% of the people that are using that road during the winter have NO clue about Friends of Forydce. We have no control and/or influence over these people.

Now the people that are on this board we have some sway over, and we can help in that way, but if some knucklehead in an SUV goes bombing all over in the winter there is absolutely nothing we can do to control that. Like expecting the NRA to control every person that owns a firearm.... its just not possible
__________________
Keith Ratzburg aka "El Rolo"
Ratz Racing #4821

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Big thanks to the vendors that have helped us out!
Goatbuilt, South Bay Driveline, East Coast Gear Supply, Rugged Radios, 150tunes.com, Pro Comp, Raceline Wheels, FOX Shocks
RCKRATZ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2013, 12:08 PM   #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Member # 117547
Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 1,801
Quote:
Originally Posted by jethrodeg View Post
How does Michael factor into the “peaceful coexistence”? You come across as a very reasonable and understanding person but my concern is Michael and his interaction with anybody other than one of his paying customers. The winter time ELR confrontations seems to be the catalyst to the issues the general public has had with him. What are your plans for plowing the public road and to avoid a repeat of confrontations like we've had in the past?
X2!
__________________
86 4Runner, 12 JKUR, 02 GMC 2500HD
Vice-President Trailbusters4x4 club Solano County
ECV 1004
N6FZY
FuzzyZ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2013, 06:45 PM   #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Member # 111580
Posts: 3,961
So I'm assuming "Michael" and shineyboo are one in the same?

I have had run ins with him and I see no possible way that the 4wd community and him can get along if he is going to continue treating people like inwas treated. I was shown literally ZERO respect before I even spoke a word, was guilty in his mind and nothing was going to change that. The conditions on eagle lakes road once the snow is down is not our fault. And I refuse to deal with someone who takes pictures of my rig and tow rig and yells at me about "ruining the road" before I have even unloaded. What is your plan for that? I see that as a major obstacle.

2nd we have asked NUMEROUS times to be able to pay to park there, and every time we have been meet with crazy ideas to pay thousands to get into some "group" that could use parking and cabins. Well I don't see that as a feasible idea because most everyone on the trail goes there to be on the trail, we are not the people who drive to the woods to stay at a house and tell our friends we went camping. I go 8-10 times a year and the last thing I want is to sleep in a cabin. I am interested in having safe parking for our tow rigs there tho. And your post here was the first I have heard about that! So good job if that is gonna happen.

3rd you Must realize that pirate4x4 and FOF only represent MAYBE half of the "4x4" community. While a lot of us are regular users of the trail, a lot of the people you see there aren't here. And when we come to an agreement here you must realize that it is only going to reach a relatively small percentage of the people who you will see on the trail, and as such whatever we agree on here will not mean the issues you have will be completely eradicated. Many others who don't know what is going on will continue to use the trail the way they always have, and you will have far better luck talking to people nicely and with respect than you will dealing with it as it has been done in the past.

Hopefully I can get up there and meet you one of these days, I really think a well thought out parking area would do a lot to mend some bridges.
dragrcr65 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-30-2013, 09:04 AM   #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Member # 277082
Posts: 5
I think we're on the right path...thanks Elizabeth. I live in Truckee and trailer my rig up there every couple of weeks. I look forward to meeting you.
Rouchx4x4 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-12-2013, 12:18 PM   #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Member # 391586
Location: Eagle Lakes Road, Cisco Grove
Posts: 10
Thank you dragrcr65.

The first step in creating better relations is that will we each have to hear each out in order to move pass this blockage. I appreciate your honesty and that you are willing to start talking. I hope we can come to an understanding. I would certainly welcome a visit from you and would like to meet you in person.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dragrcr65 View Post
So I'm assuming "Michael" and shineyboo are one in the same?

I have had run ins with him and I see no possible way that the 4wd community and him can get along if he is going to continue treating people like inwas treated. I was shown literally ZERO respect before I even spoke a word, was guilty in his mind and nothing was going to change that. The conditions on eagle lakes road once the snow is down is not our fault. And I refuse to deal with someone who takes pictures of my rig and tow rig and yells at me about "ruining the road" before I have even unloaded. What is your plan for that? I see that as a major obstacle.
While Michael and I are not 'one in the same' - we are two very different people with own individual perspectives, experiences, methods, stresses and burdens - we are siblings and we share a common love for the Land, the Water and the Wilderness. Also, we do share a commitment for taking care of the Stone Bear Property in the very best way possible.

This road issue is complicated. I completely understand what you are saying and I would have the same response. I also completely understand the source of Michael's anger and stress, and although he does need to learn diplomacy and how to manage his counter productive blowouts, I would ask the other users of the road to try to see this from his perspective.

As uncomfortable as it was for you to have to deal with his anger, please understand that you were dealing with only one person on one particular day, he is dealing with over twenty people people a day all winter long, all wanting to use the road at cross purposes to his need to keep the road clear for his business. There seems to be very little consideration that it is Michael who has to maintain the 2 mile road all by himself. Even though it is a county road, the county does not plow it. He does this at 3:00am with 4 ft of snow rampaging. This can really wear a man down.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dragrcr65 View Post
2nd we have asked NUMEROUS times to be able to pay to park there, and every time we have been meet with crazy ideas to pay thousands to get into some "group" that could use parking and cabins. Well I don't see that as a feasible idea because most everyone on the trail goes there to be on the trail, we are not the people who drive to the woods to stay at a house and tell our friends we went camping. I go 8-10 times a year and the last thing I want is to sleep in a cabin. I am interested in having safe parking for our tow rigs there tho. And your post here was the first I have heard about that! So good job if that is gonna happen.
We would like to set up a area and system for safely parking your tow rigs. You can talk to me about this if you would rather not deal with Michael ... at least until we are able to normalize relations. One idea may be to set up a system online for reservations for available slots, or to create a system of 'season passes'. Please feel free to give your ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragrcr65 View Post
3rd you Must realize that pirate4x4 and FOF only represent MAYBE half of the "4x4" community. While a lot of us are regular users of the trail, a lot of the people you see there aren't here. And when we come to an agreement here you must realize that it is only going to reach a relatively small percentage of the people who you will see on the trail, and as such whatever we agree on here will not mean the issues you have will be completely eradicated. Many others who don't know what is going on will continue to use the trail the way they always have, and you will have far better luck talking to people nicely and with respect than you will dealing with it as it has been done in the past.
We understand that those on Pirate 4x4 are only one segment of the stakeholders using the Fordyce Trail area. Certainly all stakeholders have to be part of this conversation. We are reaching out to as many of the 4 wheeling groups as possible. Any help you could give in this direction would be appreciated.

Thanks again, Elizabeth

Last edited by Stone Bear Clan Mama; 12-12-2013 at 12:25 PM.
Stone Bear Clan Mama is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-12-2013, 12:22 PM   #18 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Member # 391586
Location: Eagle Lakes Road, Cisco Grove
Posts: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rouchx4x4 View Post
I think we're on the right path...thanks Elizabeth. I live in Truckee and trailer my rig up there every couple of weeks. I look forward to meeting you.
@Rouchx4x4

We welcome visits. Feel free to private message me to let me know when you are planning to come up and I will make time to meet with you. We are thinking to have a casual 4x4 social gathering some day soon, would you and your friends be interested in attending?

You can choose the music!!

Last edited by Stone Bear Clan Mama; 12-12-2013 at 12:24 PM.
Stone Bear Clan Mama is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-05-2014, 09:30 AM   #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Member # 139150
Location: Coloma, California
Posts: 6,937
so, as a member here who has gotten PISSED at the all night music, let me be the first to say "I'll believe it when I see it". I can respect booking a concert till 9-10PM. that's reasonable, you guys gotta make that place pay and what better location for some good ol' Country or Rock-n-roll. but the blocking the gates and LEO's out half a mile away from where the 'rave' was taking place knowing they couldn't leave their cruisers for that long and without backup was kinda shady. and after the 3 AM talk with the Sherriff about how much of a pain in their side that place has been in recent years..... let me just end it with- hope no one gets hurt either at Stone Bear River Camps or on Fordyce and needs to get to help ASAP, with the road blocked it would be hard for emergency personnel to get through. and the trash that those folks (the Ravers) left behind- it still amazes me that these kids will preach and comment on how beautiful the woods are then leave that crap everywhere.

I will also be the first to say sorry to Michael. the very first time I visited Fordyce and had a run in with Michael was in the middle of winter and I had no idea he was privately keeping the road plowed. we were trying to enter the trailhead but with the 4-5 feet of snow it wasn't happening (we managed to break about 40 ft of trail before our group gave up). he rolled up on us as we were leaving in his snow plow and started freaking the f**k out. this made for a lasting impression for years to come and was part of the reason for my prejudice against 'shineyboo'. I honestly would like to talk one on one with Michael and see if we can make amends. this is hard for me to do as I recognize that I'm a grade A over-opinionated asshole at times.

have you guys ever entertained the idea of "tent" camping areas within your compound? for those of us that cant afford the big$ per night charge. I know, free camping is below near the creek but for folks like my wife that want a clean running water bathroom nearby that would be good.
__________________
[COLOR="red"](input truck specs here to prove level of badass and gain Pirate street cred)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]<< post picture of badass pirate approved truck doing some epic wheeling[/COLOR]

Last edited by sjracer; 03-05-2014 at 09:43 AM. Reason: read the last sentence.....
sjracer is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-06-2014, 11:56 PM   #20 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Member # 391586
Location: Eagle Lakes Road, Cisco Grove
Posts: 10
Thank you for your honesty and willingness to make amends, sjracer.
I appreciate it.

You bring up several points that we have already tried to address elsewhere on this thread and elsewhere in this forum:

1. Our commitment to NOT have all night music invading the canyon in the future (I can certainly understand your wait and see attitude), 2. our willingness to have gatherings with music other than EDM (I love good ole rock & roll for example), 3. if there is any interest in the 4x4 community for your own gathering and there is someone from your community who is ready to organize it, we would welcome hosting you all here on the land 4. Michael is very open to respectful one on one dialog. Anyone interested in moving forward in a good way is welcome to come by and visit us here at the property to get to know us and talk; we are not ogres or isolationists, please come by and introduce yourself. While apologies are always nice, at this point, they not really required, (unless you are truly called to do so). We are certainly ready to apologize to you all for disturbing the peace of the forest. 5. Explaining the nature of the Forest Service Easement that runs through our property.

I am happy to discuss these topics further if you have any other questions after reading those other postings.

Next I will do my best to address the other points from your post:

Road blockage: Believe me, we took the issue of keeping the road clear very, very seriously. The health and safety of the people and the land we walk upon is a primary concern for us, not only last summer but at all times. Fire safety was also critical issue. Each producer is required to submit an evacuation, parking and sanitation plan in order to gain approval for their gathering and had to maintain a 24 hour crew of security and medical personnel.

In managing the various events as the property venue, it was our strict contractual policy for the visiting event producers to maintain a clear roadways AT ALL TIMES with sufficient clearance for a large emergency vehicle or fire truck to pass. We were ready to tow any vehicles that were in violation of this policy and at times we did tow. We required the producers to have an organized parking crew to manage this requirement. Some producers did much better than others in complying (some groups of participants were more aware of this need than others and some were just plain dense), but anyone who was not in compliance, as soon we became aware of the problem, we got hard on their case until they remedied the situation.

While we did control our front gate to manage the flow of the gathering participants at each event, we never did not block the easement bypass road immediately to the south of the main gate or the high road down to the river. It is our legal right as private property owners to control our various gates and roads as we see fit, as long as we still maintaining an easement. This is what we did. All the high clearance 4x4 vehicles wishing to pass through our land via the high road easement to the river were allowed to pass. Admittedly there were a few cases where the event's gate crew were either not clear on the concept of the easement or poorly prepared as how to manage the easement for the area's other users and there was some moments of tension.

We had only one incident where we had to actively blocked a group of 4 wheelers and this was as a result of their own insulting, threatening, vandalizing, drunken and belligerent behavior. We needed to make it clear that the way they were behaving was NOT acceptable, a danger to our guests and that they had to leave the property immediately. Once they were confronted, they became suddenly very civil and left without further trouble. We explained to them that we would have not come in to their home and acted that way to them and requested them to act in the same way.

Enforcement agencies: Any time any LEO requested access to the property, this was granted (this only occurred two or three times that I can recall) and we received no formal complaints from any agencies. In fact we were told by the Nevada Co, Sheriff that our organization looked very good. We took the county public health and safety regulations very seriously also making sure that we had all of the porta potties required, etc..

Trash: I am not sure what you are speaking of here. I agree with you about how puzzling it is that folks could ever consider trashing such a beautiful place, in fact, this issue is one of my biggest personal pet peeves.

We insisted that each event producer and all of their participants (as they entered) agreed in writing to a 'Leave no Trace' policy in order to hold their events on our land. Then after the event, they were ALL required to pick up and haul away ALL the trash left behind ~ even down to the cig butts and bottle caps. We had a steep cleaning deposit required to enforce this ethic. Again some groups did better than others with this expectation.

However, we can not control the behavior of people on the lands beyond our property lines, whether they were our own guests spilling over into the national forest, or 4 wheelers and hikers on NFS lands, however, we still did trash patrols past our boundary and out along Eagle Lakes Road.

FYI, we had a few gatherings that were not an EDM/Rave type group (more rock genre) and we found that their trash impact was far worse that the electronic music groups. Additionally, we have ALWAYS experienced a severe trash problem at the NFS campground at the So Yuba River long before last summer music gatherings. So, in all fairness, while they certainly may have contributed, I really don't think this trash issue you experienced is PRIMARILY from the rave music crowd.

Thanks for this opportunity to clarify. I would like to close with ~ if there is an issue of concern next summer, please, please come straight to us and we will do our best to respectfully address it right then. I believe that this is a much better way for all of us to find the effective solutions than waiting for several months before calling it to our attention. I hope you can feel the openness from us to communicate with us in the future.

Last edited by Stone Bear Clan Mama; 03-07-2014 at 11:12 AM.
Stone Bear Clan Mama is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-09-2014, 08:00 AM   #21 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Member # 139150
Location: Coloma, California
Posts: 6,937
fair enough. we were there a last weekend and things were indeed clean on the easement.
in all fairness also I have cleaned up campsites that we used down by the river when we arrived at them.

with this, I do want to see you guys succeed.
your lack of signage visible from the freeway is your biggest enemy. no one knows your there. a better sign up on the road down near the freeway saying something like:
this way to
Stone Bear River Camps
Family Camping
Cabin Rentals
Live Music
snow park

maybe eventually set up something like what they have at Bucks lake. a small Bar, camping, etc.
start off getting a Ice Machine. sell bagged ice. this might literally "break the ice" between what you guys got going on and the 4wheelers/campers/people coming up to hunt/fish, not just the guys posting on here that know about this dialog, but the ones that don't know about Pirate4x4.
__________________
[COLOR="red"](input truck specs here to prove level of badass and gain Pirate street cred)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]<< post picture of badass pirate approved truck doing some epic wheeling[/COLOR]
sjracer is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-10-2014, 12:58 PM   #22 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Member # 391586
Location: Eagle Lakes Road, Cisco Grove
Posts: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjracer View Post
fair enough. we were there a last weekend and things were indeed clean on the easement.
in all fairness also I have cleaned up campsites that we used down by the river when we arrived at them.

with this, I do want to see you guys succeed.
your lack of signage visible from the freeway is your biggest enemy. no one knows your there. a better sign up on the road down near the freeway saying something like:
this way to
Stone Bear River Camps
Family Camping
Cabin Rentals
Live Music
snow park

maybe eventually set up something like what they have at Bucks lake. a small Bar, camping, etc.
start off getting a Ice Machine. sell bagged ice. this might literally "break the ice" between what you guys got going on and the 4wheelers/campers/people coming up to hunt/fish, not just the guys posting on here that know about this dialog, but the ones that don't know about Pirate4x4.
Thank you for saying this sjracer. Please know that we take the health and safety of the land and people very seriously. And if you see something of concern that requires our attention, please let us know right away and we will address it to the best of our ability. Even is it is on NFS lands. We are glad to align with the 4x4 community to help NFS manage our surrounding forests.

These are all very excellent suggestions for improving our business. We have gone around and around trying to get good signage. Caltrans, Nev. Co., and NFS all have aesthetic concerns and strict restrictions for this region to manage these concerns. And as with most things like this, it is very expensive to get around these issues. We are re-addressing this issue to find good solutions for tasteful unobtrusive signage and presence seen from the freeway.

We do already have an ice machine and we are glad to sell ice to whomever needs it. We have thought about opening a store for years. The trick has been to get the right people to manage it.

Next time you are up, please stop by and say hello.
Cheers, Elizabeth
Stone Bear Clan Mama is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-09-2014, 02:52 PM   #23 (permalink)
"All Weeee Drive!"
 
MochaMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Member # 6450
Location: Concord, CA
Posts: 12,056
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Bear Clan Mama View Post
- Concerns and frustrations regarding the music events of this last summer:

First of all, we sincerely apologize to every camping neighbor who had been disturbed or lost sleep over the summer by the music from our events, and especially to kdub0013 (Zeus of the Sluice) who had such a bad experience with his child's first experience in the forest. I personally greatly regret that this happened, because one of my big causes is motivation children to get out into the woods for their lifetime.

Secondly, we will not be holding all night music events of this type in the future. We did not really even seek them out this last summer, but the unexpected turn of events did allow us to stay in business. For this we are grateful. Although we are not interested in repeating the experience.

As an explanation ... early in the season, after a terrible winter financially, there was the opportunity to start booking music events ... we some what naively started saying yes. We were approached by one promoter, then suddenly, the word was out and we had a full summer line-up. It seemed like a fortunate windfall, and in many ways it was, however, it was a very challenging summer for us as well.

After we had committed to the events and accepted deposits, we were really not fully aware of how loud the music would be at 3:00am or how far the sound of the bass would travel down the canyon. The producers and DJ's seemed to have the idea that they were in the middle of the forest with no one else around. Even as we explained that we did have neighbors to consider and asked the producers to turn down the bass, it was still a struggle for us with the volume, because for the people who love to dance to loud music, also love to dance to loud music through the night. While this is not our particular passion, this summer we did end up hosting a community who is committed to this activity. So be it. We have certainly learned that this is not really our style of business.

Many thanks, Elizabeth
Soundss like you are full of crap.
Attached Images
 
__________________
62 IH Scout, Built to wheel.
MochaMike is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-10-2014, 06:24 AM   #24 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Member # 89109
Location: Arroyo Grande, CA
Posts: 1,467
I'll have my 1 year old and 3 year old out this weeknd. Hope we don't hear this junk blasting through the night. I might have to a night run to give a .02 of my own if this is happening. Last thing I want is for my wife and kids to start not wanting to go wheeling with me becuse of inconsiderate people and the need to blast music late at night.
__________________
Poly Performance

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Abd Motorsports, #4475

Placer County Crawlers - Founder/President 2011-2017

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Rubicon Trail Foundation
Friends of Fordyce
edabd is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-10-2014, 06:28 AM   #25 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Wilson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Member # 7233
Location: Jefferson
Posts: 27,613
Send a message via AIM to Wilson
Inconsiderate people maybe, also seems as if "brentwade" was the only one to touch their olive branch. Hard to keep the doors open with one customer a year
Wilson is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

** A VERIFICATION EMAIL IS SENT TO THIS ADDRESS TO COMPLETE REGISTRATION!! **

Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.