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Old 06-06-2014, 10:02 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Another music party at shinyboo...

Yup camping at pierce ohv right now and have the pleasure of a rave party going on at shinyboo again. Thought all this crap was stoped and they said that they wouldnt let it happen again??? Guess not?
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Old 06-06-2014, 10:11 PM   #2 (permalink)
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just proves, they're just placating us. they don't even realize how much money they pissed down the drain by thumbing their noses at the 'wheelers. now no-one wants to go there. they don't realize the hundreds of thousands of dollars that go rolling by every weekend, and all they'd have to do is roll out the welcome mat. instead they pull this crap, make a quick few bucks, litter up the forest, pull some bullshit. I hope you don't have to make an emergency exit, as they have the road blocked.
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Old 06-06-2014, 10:15 PM   #3 (permalink)
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so I guess this is a bunch of BS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Bear Clan Mama View Post
Thank you for your honesty and willingness to make amends, sjracer.
I appreciate it.

You bring up several points that we have already tried to address elsewhere on this thread and elsewhere in this forum:

1. Our commitment to NOT have all night music invading the canyon in the future (I can certainly understand your wait and see attitude), 2. our willingness to have gatherings with music other than EDM (I love good ole rock & roll for example), 3. if there is any interest in the 4x4 community for your own gathering and there is someone from your community who is ready to organize it, we would welcome hosting you all here on the land 4. Michael is very open to respectful one on one dialog. Anyone interested in moving forward in a good way is welcome to come by and visit us here at the property to get to know us and talk; we are not ogres or isolationists, please come by and introduce yourself. While apologies are always nice, at this point, they not really required, (unless you are truly called to do so). We are certainly ready to apologize to you all for disturbing the peace of the forest. 5. Explaining the nature of the Forest Service Easement that runs through our property.

I am happy to discuss these topics further if you have any other questions after reading those other postings.

Next I will do my best to address the other points from your post:

Road blockage: Believe me, we took the issue of keeping the road clear very, very seriously. The health and safety of the people and the land we walk upon is a primary concern for us, not only last summer but at all times. Fire safety was also critical issue. Each producer is required to submit an evacuation, parking and sanitation plan in order to gain approval for their gathering and had to maintain a 24 hour crew of security and medical personnel.

In managing the various events as the property venue, it was our strict contractual policy for the visiting event producers to maintain a clear roadways AT ALL TIMES with sufficient clearance for a large emergency vehicle or fire truck to pass. We were ready to tow any vehicles that were in violation of this policy and at times we did tow. We required the producers to have an organized parking crew to manage this requirement. Some producers did much better than others in complying (some groups of participants were more aware of this need than others and some were just plain dense), but anyone who was not in compliance, as soon we became aware of the problem, we got hard on their case until they remedied the situation.

While we did control our front gate to manage the flow of the gathering participants at each event, we never did not block the easement bypass road immediately to the south of the main gate or the high road down to the river. It is our legal right as private property owners to control our various gates and roads as we see fit, as long as we still maintaining an easement. This is what we did. All the high clearance 4x4 vehicles wishing to pass through our land via the high road easement to the river were allowed to pass. Admittedly there were a few cases where the event's gate crew were either not clear on the concept of the easement or poorly prepared as how to manage the easement for the area's other users and there was some moments of tension.

We had only one incident where we had to actively blocked a group of 4 wheelers and this was as a result of their own insulting, threatening, vandalizing, drunken and belligerent behavior. We needed to make it clear that the way they were behaving was NOT acceptable, a danger to our guests and that they had to leave the property immediately. Once they were confronted, they became suddenly very civil and left without further trouble. We explained to them that we would have not come in to their home and acted that way to them and requested them to act in the same way.

Enforcement agencies: Any time any LEO requested access to the property, this was granted (this only occurred two or three times that I can recall) and we received no formal complaints from any agencies. In fact we were told by the Nevada Co, Sheriff that our organization looked very good. We took the county public health and safety regulations very seriously also making sure that we had all of the porta potties required, etc..

Trash: I am not sure what you are speaking of here. I agree with you about how puzzling it is that folks could ever consider trashing such a beautiful place, in fact, this issue is one of my biggest personal pet peeves.

We insisted that each event producer and all of their participants (as they entered) agreed in writing to a 'Leave no Trace' policy in order to hold their events on our land. Then after the event, they were ALL required to pick up and haul away ALL the trash left behind ~ even down to the cig butts and bottle caps. We had a steep cleaning deposit required to enforce this ethic. Again some groups did better than others with this expectation.

However, we can not control the behavior of people on the lands beyond our property lines, whether they were our own guests spilling over into the national forest, or 4 wheelers and hikers on NFS lands, however, we still did trash patrols past our boundary and out along Eagle Lakes Road.

FYI, we had a few gatherings that were not an EDM/Rave type group (more rock genre) and we found that their trash impact was far worse that the electronic music groups. Additionally, we have ALWAYS experienced a severe trash problem at the NFS campground at the So Yuba River long before last summer music gatherings. So, in all fairness, while they certainly may have contributed, I really don't think this trash issue you experienced is PRIMARILY from the rave music crowd.

Thanks for this opportunity to clarify. I would like to close with ~ if there is an issue of concern next summer, please, please come straight to us and we will do our best to respectfully address it right then. I believe that this is a much better way for all of us to find the effective solutions than waiting for several months before calling it to our attention. I hope you can feel the openness from us to communicate with us in the future.
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Last edited by sjracer; 06-07-2014 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 06-06-2014, 11:10 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Well the music from there was turned down now but sure it will be back tomarrow night
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Old 06-06-2014, 11:50 PM   #5 (permalink)
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If they turn it off at a halfway reasonable hour and don't leave the place trashed who cares???
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Old 06-06-2014, 11:59 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Never mind. They waited till midnight to start back up...
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Old 06-07-2014, 12:14 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Old 06-07-2014, 07:48 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Oh good just in time for father's day with the family
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Old 06-07-2014, 07:53 AM   #9 (permalink)
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They will not be holding those type of events again huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Bear Clan Mama View Post
Greetings,

I would like to introduce myself ... I am Elizabeth, one of the residents and stewards of the Stone Bear property on Eagles Lakes Road, (which borders the Fordyce Trailhead in the Tahoe National Forest). I have read most all of the post here on this forum concerning the property and various activities with regards to this property. I am choosing to come into your community now as an informal ambassador ... to hopefully ease some of the miscommunications and to try to re-start with fresh relations.

I am offering to open respectful dialog to clear up as many of the issues as possible ~ hearing from all sides. I hope that we can keep focused on moving forward in a good way and to keep the conversation constructive.

That said, from the postings on this forum, I can see there are a few reoccurring themes to the conflicts that I will first list and then will address as best I can - either now or in a future posting. Please feel free to add to this list any important topics I may not have mentioned here.

- Road use: Existing summer easement access for the Fordyce Creek trailhead and winter road use along Eagle Lakes Road.

- Use of the Stone property by the 4x4 community for parking and cabin rentals.

- Concerns and frustrations regarding the music events of the last summer:

- Strained relations between Michael, the owner of the property and the general 4x4 community, as well as specific posters in this group.

- How to move forward as allies, rather that adversaries


:::::::::::::::
- Road use: Existing summer easement access for the Fordyce Creek trailhead and winter road use along Eagle Lakes Road.

With winter on its way, we would rather not wait for snow on the ground and for tempers to flare for this to become an volatile situation again. We are in conversations with our Nevada County supervisor on this issue and we would very much like to hear suggestions from you as to how we can find a workable solution for all concerned - a solution that will protect our ability to run our business without obstruction and help your community be able to enjoy what you love to do. If you all are willing, I would like to personally head up a thread on this forum to get feedback regarding this situation, in order for this challenge to be resolved well.

- Use of the Stone property by the 4x4 community for parking and cabin rentals.
The cabins have always been open to all guests regardless of what they wear, what they drive, what flavor are their politics, or how they choose to play. What we do ask is that ALL of our guest be respectful of the land, our other guests and all the hard work that has been put into the business over many years. We also expect ALL of our guest to adhere to a certain code of conduct that we have established for our property.

We have always been aware of the potential positive and mutually beneficial relationship existing between our business and the 4x4 community and have always been very happy to rent cabins out to any of your group who is interested. We would even be willing to craft fun adventures for the wives and children who are not interested in going out to the trails. We are just not willing to rent to your group at the exclusion of any other affinity group.

We do allow for safe parking of your tow rigs on our property for $20 a night.

While the store idea is an excellent concept, it is a full business in itself; this is an expansion we have talked about for years, it is not something we have been able to manage to get going. We have our hands full just manning the cabin business. May be someone in your community would be interesting in starting a store on the land?

We truly are very happy to help you have a better experience in the Tahoe National Forest by providing a safe place to park your tow rigs and by renting cabins to your family, and as a token of good faith and atonement for a loud summer, we would like to offer the members of The Friends of the Fordyce a very special cabin rental rate between now and the end of the year (excluding the holiday periods of Thanksgiving, Xmas and New Years) of $75 per cabin per night. Also, if you book 4 cabins together as a group, then we will give an even further 'Friends and Family' discount of $50 per cabin per night (tax added separately). At this price you would bring your own linen and supplies.

- Concerns and frustrations regarding the music events of this last summer:

First of all, we sincerely apologize to every camping neighbor who had been disturbed or lost sleep over the summer by the music from our events, and especially to kdub0013 (Zeus of the Sluice) who had such a bad experience with his child's first experience in the forest. I personally greatly regret that this happened, because one of my big causes is motivation children to get out into the woods for their lifetime.

Secondly, we will not be holding all night music events of this type in the future. We did not really even seek them out this last summer, but the unexpected turn of events did allow us to stay in business. For this we are grateful. Although we are not interested in repeating the experience.

As an explanation ... early in the season, after a terrible winter financially, there was the opportunity to start booking music events ... we some what naively started saying yes. We were approached by one promoter, then suddenly, the word was out and we had a full summer line-up. It seemed like a fortunate windfall, and in many ways it was, however, it was a very challenging summer for us as well.

After we had committed to the events and accepted deposits, we were really not fully aware of how loud the music would be at 3:00am or how far the sound of the bass would travel down the canyon. The producers and DJ's seemed to have the idea that they were in the middle of the forest with no one else around. Even as we explained that we did have neighbors to consider and asked the producers to turn down the bass, it was still a struggle for us with the volume, because for the people who love to dance to loud music, also love to dance to loud music through the night. While this is not our particular passion, this summer we did end up hosting a community who is committed to this activity. So be it. We have certainly learned that this is not really our style of business.

Just so you all know, we were the site managers renting out the property and not the event producers. Also,we were sure to work only with established, reputable producers (there were several we turned away). We required them all to carry insurance; to have security and medics on site and on duty at all time; to have minors accompanied by a parent, to maintain regulation fire lanes at all times; to observe posted FS fire restrictions; to observe our own fire rules which were more restrictive than the FS; to have the county requirements of porta-potties and other health codes met; to educate all their staff on our emergency evacuation plan; to park all vehicles nose out in case of evacuation; to clean up every thing left behind ... and there was no sale of alcohol.

We did have several visits from the Nevada Co. Sheriffs and Cal Fire throughout the summer. We willingly gave them tours of the events and they found no issues.

We also instructed all of the event producers on the existence of the easement and made it clear that the 4x4 users of the Tahoe National Forest had the right of way to pass around our gate and down to the So Yuba via the bypass road. They were each clearly responsible for communicating this information to their volunteer staff. Admittedly, we did have a few cases of bad communication with the gate staff of the events, who seemed to be unclear about how to act like good neighbors themselves and they made already tense relations worse by their actions. They were promptly re-educated on the rules of the OHV easement. In one case the young man was asked to leave the property.

While most of the 4 wheelers passed through without incident, we did receive some very, rude unprovoked behavior from people in 4x4s ... not so much on the way out, but more when they were coming on to the property. Just some really bad 'yahoo' form was demonstrated including: an incident with three drunk men with a gun, Michael nearly being maliciously run over by a person in a 4x4, our gate being rammed by a person in a 4x4, other observed destruction of our property theft, and vandalism by people driving 4x4's. This is just the truth of the matter and what we have had to deal with from some rogues driving off road vehicles.

But in all fairness, there also were several times that some very nice folks rolled up in their 4x4's just to see what was happening ... they were invited into the event and they ended up having a very good time with some very fun people enjoying life in the woods. I think they found that the people inside the events ~ hippies or not ~ were not really whacked out on drugs and not even really that dirty, in fact they were not that different than themselves in their early twenties.

- Strained relations between Michael, the owner of the property and the general 4x4 community, as well as with specific posters in this forum.
I have know Michael for many, many years and he is a very good man with a whole lot of heart, who works harder than anyone I have every met. He is carrying a great deal of load on his shoulders as the property owner of this land. While he may get angry at what he feel is unfair treatment and does not always know how to deal with his frustrations diplomatically... he is definitely not crazy. He is always willing to learn from his mistakes and will always find a way to move forward.

What is the old indian saying? "Don't judge a man until you have walked a year in his moccasins". It does seem like there has been a whole lot of judgement has been flying on all sides and it seems like it is now time to move beyond this unproductive approach to this challenge. I will say that I am very heartened to see that there several balanced voices of reason amongst the harsh critics on this forum, and I thank you for your equanimity.

For the most part, we accept people as they show up, but some times this is very difficult when the bad apples arrive. We do know that there are really only a very few true bad apples in ANY particular group. For our part, we vow to do a better job in not treating every person who comes down the road based on a few bad experiences in the past.

- How to move forward as allies, rather that adversaries.
This remains to be seen, but we are hoping that this letter is a first step to a good conversation in future forum threads. Please know that we are ready to begin to engage your community in the process and let us know if there are some amongst you who are ready to take these steps with us.

Many thanks, Elizabeth
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Old 06-07-2014, 08:02 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Camped up on Sunrise Ridge last weekend and knew about Shinny rave party because half the parking lot at Cisco was full of "overflow" cars. Music at dark could be heard but tolerable...until 1:30 am, then the MEGA bass cranked up for 2 long, no rhythm noise songs (20 min+). Just image bringing your entire family to camp at Indian Springs Campground and having to watch your tent walls flap from that so-called music! Don't know how they get away with it more than once or twice a year.

I've met Mike and have parked my trailer at Shinny a couple of times to avoid Eagle Lake staging break-ins. Never had any issues and understand needing to make a buck but BS screwing up everyone else's weekend especially after midnight. Now he's had another one on consecutive weekends...
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Old 06-07-2014, 08:25 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Damnit. On my way up right now. I may have to find somewhere else to camp with my group
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Old 06-07-2014, 08:52 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Just go down the trail and stay away from pierce creek and you will be fine.
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Old 06-07-2014, 07:38 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Hey Old Man Mountain......just crank up the Merle and have another shot of "Tekillya" you wimp! Just kidden bud........I hear ya!
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Old 06-07-2014, 09:33 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I wanted to take my family up next month to his cabins but now I won't back to looking for a quite spot away from tweakers and asshats.
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Old 06-07-2014, 09:40 PM   #15 (permalink)
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back to looking for a quite spot away from tweakers and asshats.
fordyce lake, only time i go in eagles is if rattle snake gate is locked
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Old 06-08-2014, 07:22 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Good for me but my wife wants to invite her sisters family and stay in a cabin and I want to go wheeling but I'm not going to give this guy one penny. So I will look at Tahoe Tahoma area instead and do the Rubicon like always
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Old 06-09-2014, 12:23 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Only one thing came to my mind when I saw this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKgPY1adc0A
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Old 06-09-2014, 02:48 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Looks like June 20-22 2014 is another one...

https://www.facebook.com/events/751872811502562/
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Old 06-09-2014, 06:50 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Camped down by pierce this past weekend and could definitely hear the death metal fest that was going on up there.

Is this old news that I have missed or what?

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Old 06-09-2014, 09:46 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Fof should buy it.
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Old 06-10-2014, 04:11 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Cabins are $209.00 a night. 6 people per cabin
Jump on that Pirate discount
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Old 06-10-2014, 06:19 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Great, hope we don't have to hear this crap over Father's Day weekend.
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Old 06-10-2014, 12:26 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Fof should buy it.
x2 Howboutit Timnam?
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Old 06-10-2014, 01:10 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I've got a Benjamin on it lol
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Old 06-11-2014, 08:40 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Fof should buy it.
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x2 Howboutit Timnam?
I started a thread last year about this, Brett said no.......
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