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Old 12-07-2002, 10:29 AM   #1 (permalink)
 
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Cage material (Big Rich)

The rule about the roll cage must be DOM .120 wall
My full rig is made out of 1.5" .120 wall mild steel
Does this mean that I can't run it because its not DOM...
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Old 12-07-2002, 11:42 AM   #2 (permalink)
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It is DOM...if they ask!

Know what I mean?
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Old 12-07-2002, 11:45 AM   #3 (permalink)
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dom is mild steal
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Old 12-07-2002, 11:50 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I would say he means hrew
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Old 12-07-2002, 12:52 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by camo
dom is mild steal
correct but dom has a higher carbon content and has a higher strength yield than a lower quality erw or hrew tube .
also from my experience from bending and welding both dom and hrew/erw ,dom is more consistent and welds nicer then the lower grades .
this comes from bending and welding thousands of feet of tubing .
with all said will hrew be ok for rockcrawling .... yes it is just fine
but for me if i am putting thousands of dollars into a rig and i am using 100 feet of tubing and dom is a 1 more per foot
i'll spend the extra 100 bucks on dom ...

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Old 12-07-2002, 02:26 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by fj junkie

but for me if i am putting thousands of dollars into a rig and i am using 100 feet of tubing and dom is a 1 more per foot
i'll spend the extra 100 bucks on dom ...

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What if you were running 110 feet?

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Old 12-07-2002, 02:43 PM   #7 (permalink)
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correct but dom has a higher carbon content
not exactly. I've said it before a hundred times, I guess I'll have to keep saying it. DOM is a PROCESS not a type, grade, specification of steel.

It's also not seamless, as many think.

What you get when you take your electric welded mechanical tubing (whether it was hot or cold rolled) and the draw it over a mandrel is more precise dimensions and a cleaner finish. The "cold working" of doing so will also potentially impart some greater strength as it alligns the crystal lattice structure, but enough to matter...dunno?

But you still have to call out the type or grade of steel. yes, commonly DOM mechanical tubing is often 1020 mild steel...but it doesn't HAVE to be. Is a 1018 DOM better / stronger / safer for a cage than a 1050 that is cold rolled and welded, ut not drawn over a manderl?...again I dunno, and I can virtually guarantee no comp series rule maker does either.

Personally - to me it would make much more sense for a sanctioing body to make rules regarding the grade of steel, as much as the process by which it was constructed. Or at least as well as.

Sayin "must be DOM" just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
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Old 12-07-2002, 03:08 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I've used both and tested both. I've rolled many times in events and even did a good one racing Bret from Phoenix in the wash after a RRCA event and my 120 seamed pipe did fine. For me they both seem to hold up well. It's all about how you build it. DOM does nothing if someone dosn't support it well. I would say design means the most. Plus if you powder coat your cage no one can tell anyway.
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Old 12-07-2002, 03:34 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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The way I see the big picture here is most of us have our shit built already. It's not so much a Dom vs HREW cost issue as much as I'm not about to build my shit over to meet this rule.
That's how I see this and by the way this was a hypothetical scenario. My rig IS DOM if anyone asks.
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Old 12-07-2002, 03:40 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I think in the end, this rule is simply a liability issue...the events are covering their butts and I don't blame them. This gives them a barrier if you roll, crush a lower strength cage, hurt yourself, and then try to sue. This just gives them an out and they can say, hey, you knew the rules against cheap roll cages and chose to break them...You can't hold us responsible.
I doubt they'll ever check a single cage, they're just being insurance weary...smart move in this day and age.
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Old 12-07-2002, 03:49 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Old 12-07-2002, 03:53 PM   #12 (permalink)
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AND here lies the problem..... It happened to us this year, so I KNOW it can/will happen. Team "A" is kicking ass, and Team "B" is not happy about it. Team "B" thinks Team "A" has an HREW cage, so they protest them to try and get them DQ'd. Is the promotor still gonna look the other way?

It's ANOTHER B.S. rule that has no place in rock crawling. Not a single cage in ANY rock crawling event has failed because it was HREW. They fail because they either are designed improperly, or are made out of too thin a material. Besides, It won't affect us, because Mike's rig is being made out of .500 wall seamless skinless colorless odorless titanium anyhow.
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Old 12-07-2002, 04:34 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lance
AND here lies the problem..... It happened to us this year, so I KNOW it can/will happen. Team "A" is kicking ass, and Team "B" is not happy about it. Team "B" thinks Team "A" has an HREW cage, so they protest them to try and get them DQ'd. Is the promotor still gonna look the other way?

It's ANOTHER B.S. rule that has no place in rock crawling. Not a single cage in ANY rock crawling event has failed because it was HREW. They fail because they either are designed improperly, or are made out of too thin a material. Besides, It won't affect us, because Mike's rig is being made out of .500 wall seamless skinless colorless odorless titanium anyhow.

Very good point,...especialy considering that I am Team "B"
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Old 12-07-2002, 04:50 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Good point Lance...
Whether it's right or not, if a rule is created, someone will always use it to their advantage...I wonder just what percentage of current rigs actually comply with the cage rule?...I bet less than 25%.
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Old 12-07-2002, 07:30 PM   #15 (permalink)
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well, for you rock guys...

I was just reading through these posts to see what was being said and I hear ya.

This has come up at MTRA meetings time and again.

Like one of you said...it's not so much what you make it out of, but how you make it.

I've seen some ....well.....hillarious cage designs that i wouldn't drive down the road, nevermind anything serious. I don't care what you made these things out of, your bummin if ya roll it.

But, if it's the rule, and your supposed to have it, then you have little choice but to try and change it.

We run a monster truck and the rule states....min 2" .120 wall DOM one piece 8 point cage.
BUT it also reads that the frame under the cage must be min 2" .120 wall DOM..OR EQUIVALENT !!!

Now, I ask you....who the heck is going to know if your frame is DOM or something similar, or anything ??

Now, i'm an MTRA inspector, and on my spec sheet for signing off on a monster truck before it can race, one of the boxes is for .120 wall DOM.....and i'm not required to check it off....it's to be initialed buy the driver/owner because how am I supposed to tell ?


So, the post about covering their ass is pretty much true.


Just thought i'd toss in my 2 cents.
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Old 12-07-2002, 07:50 PM   #16 (permalink)
 
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well bill i have never seen 1010 or 1018 dom all dom tube i have run across is 1020 , i have also never seen hrew or erw on the shelf that is 1020 ... design is the key factor along with sound welds in determing strength .

cg lagos i would then spend 110 bucks

Quote:
Originally posted by BillaVista


not exactly. I've said it before a hundred times, I guess I'll have to keep saying it. DOM is a PROCESS not a type, grade, specification of steel.

It's also not seamless, as many think.

What you get when you take your electric welded mechanical tubing (whether it was hot or cold rolled) and the draw it over a mandrel is more precise dimensions and a cleaner finish. The "cold working" of doing so will also potentially impart some greater strength as it alligns the crystal lattice structure, but enough to matter...dunno?

But you still have to call out the type or grade of steel. yes, commonly DOM mechanical tubing is often 1020 mild steel...but it doesn't HAVE to be. Is a 1018 DOM better / stronger / safer for a cage than a 1050 that is cold rolled and welded, ut not drawn over a manderl?...again I dunno, and I can virtually guarantee no comp series rule maker does either.

Personally - to me it would make much more sense for a sanctioing body to make rules regarding the grade of steel, as much as the process by which it was constructed. Or at least as well as.

Sayin "must be DOM" just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
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Old 12-08-2002, 06:50 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Fj junkie,

I should have been more clear, I didn't mean to come across as if I were explaining it to you. I really was trying to point out the folley in the rule as it is presently worded. If it is indeed a "liability only" thing, then to have any chance of standing up to litigation, I would think it at least ought to be worded more specifically - as in something like "blah blah blah...comforming to ASTM or SAE blah blah blah"

Quote:
design is the key factor along with sound welds in determing strength
Aint that the truth !

By the way - The (h)erw that you commonly find - do you happen to know what type that is? Suppliers here are clue-less - all they know is "hot, cold, or "mechanical" (by which they mean DOM). If you say "is that 1020 or?" they look like a deer in the headlights.
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Old 12-08-2002, 08:41 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Don't you have rules how a competition roller cage should look like? If you compete in formula offroad or trail in Scandinavia there are rules that tells you how a cage should looke like and what material it should be made of.
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Old 12-08-2002, 05:36 PM   #19 (permalink)
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jbt,

I think that's the point exactly. Your Formula is much more mature sport than our RC comps. Do you happen to know if there is anywhere wher your Formula rules are available online to read in English?

Thanks
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Old 12-08-2002, 05:47 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by BillaVista
jbt,

I think that's the point exactly. Your Formula is much more mature sport than our RC comps. Do you happen to know if there is anywhere wher your Formula rules are available online to read in English?

Thanks
I'd be v ery interested in these also.

Rich
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Old 12-08-2002, 05:49 PM   #21 (permalink)
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how does anyone know what it is if its welded up and maybe even painted
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Old 12-08-2002, 06:26 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by godzuki
how does anyone know what it is if its welded up and maybe even painted
I don't, you tell me.

Rich
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4 wheeling sure changes when there is a crowd and cones.
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Old 12-08-2002, 06:32 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Old 12-08-2002, 06:33 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Code:
a) Steel tubing with an outside diameter of 25.4mm (1in) 
and a wall thickness of 2.108mm (0.083 in) and at least a
carbon content of 0.18%

b) steel member with at least equal bending stiffness 
and bending strength. The bending stiffness and strength
have to be calculated about an axis that gives the lowest 
value.

31.4.1 Roll cage specification sheet

All teams are required to submit a copy of the roll cage 
spec sheet to the host by the date specified. Complete roll 
cage specifications must be supplied with the spec sheet.
Material documentation must be mailed with the specification
sheet.
That's an excerpt from a SAE sanctioned event.

I'd figure out the bending stiffness and strength of 2" 120 wall and then compare that to other materials that I'm planning to use.

For example:
2" SAE 1020 120 wall cage is just as strong as a 2" 4130n 083 wall cage.
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Old 12-08-2002, 06:37 PM   #25 (permalink)
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um thats what i thought
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