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hp44 vs hp8"

6K views 56 replies 18 participants last post by  Wilson 
#1 · (Edited)
hp44,hp8 vs 609

Okay I'm posting this here to try and get unbiased opinions on these axles. First off I am not going tons for a couple reasons.
1, I am sticking with a smaller tire 35-37. 2, I want a lighter setup I do a lot of sand and snow wheeling. Either of these axles might find there way under a 4500-5000lb 3rd Gen 4runner.
Yes cost is kind of an issue but either way its going to have to be done. I would either end up with a diamond housing driver drop 80 series knuckles, 30spline axles,hellfab high steer. or a 76-77 hp44 with 30spline rcv, Reid knuckles and highsteer.

What would you suggest running out of those 2 options give or take and why?
 
#2 · (Edited)
I think 44 it's high pinion ring and pinions bigger. Sure the Toyota stuffs pretty sweet still have 8" ring gear though. Now if your talking 9.5" third then I might change my mind. Plus a 44 under a Toyota just bugs the yota guys :flipoff2:

Edit:
I see they're both hp still think 44.
 
#3 · (Edited)
I'd say d44, just to make servicing/ maint. Easier and cleaner. I dread the maintenance on my fj80 front due to the grease and all of the necessary wipers and seals. I honestly think all else is equal in terms of strength. If you're linking, the fabricated housing may be nice though.
 
#8 ·
I'd stick with a factory FJ80 housing, plenty strong and lighter than a Diamond (or other heavy wall tube fab housing)

FJ80 axle shafts are going to be stonger than D44 axle shafts. Stock vs Stock, or RCV (Longs) vs RCV.


If you are going to run locking hubs (commonly overlooked in the D44 vs Toyota debate!) the Aisin Toyota hubs are many times stonger than a D44 Locking hub.

I am a fan of the HP44, especially since you can get 35 spline diffs, and run a Dana 50 ring gear.... BUT, by the time you do that, you might as well just start out with a D60.
 
#9 ·
I'd stick with a factory FJ80 housing, plenty strong and lighterthan a Diamond (or other heavy wall tube fab housing)

FJ80 axle shafts are going to be stonger than D44 axle shafts. Stock vs Stock, or RCV (Longs) vs RCV.


If you are going to run locking hubs (commonly overlooked in the D44 vs Toyota debate!) the Aisin Toyota hubs are many times stonger than a D44 Locking hub.

I am a fan of the HP44, especially since you can get 35 spline diffs, and run a Dana 50 ring gear.... BUT, by the time you do that, you might as well just start out with a D60.
I did find a lot of cool info on the 50 gear set in a hp44 and agree by the time your done your into a mild built 60 range. I never did think about hubs was thinking just flanges or Yukon hubs? In my mind price seems about the same with a custom Fab toy axle vs a mild built hp44.
 
#15 ·
Honestly I completely agree with wilson. If your looking at custom housings anyways, I'd definately go 9". You don't even have to go max bling right off the bat if you don't have cash for it, but your so much better off in the long run vs expecting the R&P to be the weak point, with the only solution being another axle build.

I built a front 609 with a Ruffstuff housing, stock ford inner C's bored out to 3.5", stock knuckles, new (cheap) replacement spindles, stock ford dana 60 axle shafts, new spicer u-joints, kingping and wheel bearing rebuild kits. It cost probably as little as the axles your looking at building, except for the third member which I went all out on with a strange 3rd and 35spl detroit.

Honestly, buy a currie HP9 3rd and choose a 35spl 9" locker. It's got an insane hypoid offset, and it's a reverse 8.8 gearset. Not as seriously strong as a true high 9, but way more affordable, especially with the tire size in question
 
#16 ·
I totally understand doing it right the first time and what not but I don't think I can justify spending 10k on a front axle I'm figuring about 7k give or take a grand to do a sas with a link setup on m rig. I mean the rig will see the road everyday as it WILL be a dual purpose rig. I myself have never broke a 44 r&p in my old full size bronco in the sand or snow. Only ujoints and hubs. However I can see when I fix the joint problem(rcv) and the hubs(Yukon or flang) it will move the week link to the r&p.
I am taking all the constructive criticism and listening to the advice, but 12k for a axle and link system for a rig that will not see hardcore trails seems like a shit ton of money.
 
#17 · (Edited)
The price of the parts I listed in the above post aren't nearly that extreme, I went as budget as I could with my build, and it's build cost was in the $2500 range. At least that's my estimate, I'm going to go do a pretend build right now and see what kind of total I come up with. I'll edit this with my findings

Ruffstuff Housing: $670 (ouch prices have definately gone up)
http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/FORD9.html

Wheel bearings: $50
http://eastcoastgearsupply.com/i-1396776-dana-60-front-wheel-bearing-kit.html

Kingpin Rebuild: $70
http://eastcoastgearsupply.com/i-135511-dana-60-kingpin-rebuild-kit.html

Spicer Joints: $46 apeice, $92
http://eastcoastgearsupply.com/i-13...-5-806x-spl55-3x-forged-cross-non-grease.html
(I had mine cryo'd by Dean, extra cost not needed for this example)

Spindle bearing seal kit: $28.50 apeice, $57
http://eastcoastgearsupply.com/i-1396778-dana-60-spindle-bearing-seal-kit.html

Spindle nuts: $23 per, $46
http://eastcoastgearsupply.com/i-1396774-dana-60-spindle-nut-kit.html
(entirely too expensive, find a junk yard.)

Awesome Spicer 60 hubs: $35 (Ok ok so this miiight be a good deal :flipoff2:)
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/axle...24-dana-60-stub-shaft-lock-outs-gm-chevy.html
Warn 60 hubs: $55
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/axles-tires-wheels-sale/938683-gm-front-dana-60-parts.html

High steer arm: $40 (I run my drag link to the high steer arm, and flipped the tie rod to the top of OEM spot)
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/axles-tires-wheels-sale/975450-d60-high-steer-arm.html

Ford SRW Hubs: $50
Calipers & pads - $40
Caliper Brackets - $20
Rotors (still good) - $40
(Probably was negotiable at the time)
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/axles-tires-wheels-sale/1074451-88-f-350-d60-srw-outers.html

Ok we're at somewhere around $1400 now I think

I can't find my purchase of the knuckles, but they were around $150 IIRC.

Spindles I got from Durasolid (the India company with a shitty reputation) for $75 apeice. $150

OEM 1978-79 Ford D60 axleshafts ~$175

So that's around $1900 without a 3rd member, from there you can pick your poison. Some of those new part prices are pretty insane, and you could do better so there's variation there.





Hell you could buy a $700 Balljoint D60, and literally take everything and swap it onto Ruffstuffs $670 fabricated 9" housing...There's a $1370 609 build minus the 3rd
 
#19 ·
Glad I've at least got you're mind open to it haha :D. The one catch with the prices I listed on some of the pirate things, I wasn't ready for the swap right away so I was able to sit and watch for good deals on things over time. The deals I got aren't too extreme but aren't always around, you've just gotta watch for them.

Does that diamnond quote have inner and outer knuckles? Either way, that's not a bad deal to have the work already done for you. Do they build it to an OEM width or custom? Not that custom shafts are that expensive, but that is the beginning to throwing a lot of money at the axle build haha.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I know its just inner c but I don't recall on shafts and what not. And they build it to whatever specs you want.
The sas wouldn't be for awhile and I have no problem rocking the ifs for a little longer to finish gathering all the right parts.

Straight from there site..
9" Center, Dana 60 Outer Steer Housing: Fabricated center, providing 3/4"+ extra ground clearance Dedenbear C's installed Spicer axle shaft seals ARP and grade 8 3rd member mounting hardware Breather $1250
 
#21 ·
This guy built a cheap 609 with some junkyard axles.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/toyota-truck-4runner/747451-home-brew-609-leafs.html

I would buy a mid 90s balljoint HP60 to rob the outers off of (they don't really need high steer because the factory steer arm is high, beef knuckles/Cs, standard bearing hubs, easily available 35 spline stubs, etc)

Then you could spend some extra $ on a badass 3rd member.
 
#22 ·
Nice! The fact that it's got reid inner C's is a pretty nice bonus, I run the cheap stocks but I plated mine to avoid bending/breaking. ARP 3rd member hardware is a bit extreme but a nice bit of bling factor, I don't see the 3rd member bolts ever being a failure point. With the spicer seals pre installed, I bet they are expecting you to run an aftermarket axleshaft right off the bat with a uniform machined diameter for the entire length. OEM shafts have a single seal surface at a set distance, and the rest of the shaft is rough forging that is not seal-worthy. I had Dean @ performance cryo machine a new seal surface into my OEM shafts for a reasonable price, so I could choose my own sealing distance with aftermarket axle seals
 
#23 ·
This IMO is one of the problems with going on pirate to much. You guys honesty think this guy needs a 609 for a street/trails/snow wheeler on 35-37" tires? I think either axle he mentioned would be more then enough for what he described. Not everybody beats thier rig like its a rental :flipoff2:

To the original question, I'd go with the 80 and stay with 4.88s, the birfs are bigger, stronger hubs and knuckles ( assuming hellfires )
 
#28 ·
Purists :flipoff2: that exact statement is why I posted this thread in gen4x4. But everyone has made great points, why build a custom toy housing that will cost you 4k if everything is new when you can spend that on a custom 609 and have a strong ass axle.
I'm a Toy fan, hardly a purist, and I ask the same questions.

To me, when you exceed the strength of a factory Toyota housing, you are better off going to a bigger axle all together.

By the time you buy a fabricated housing and Hellfire Fab knuckles, you're in for $1600... and you're still stuck with 30 spline shafts.:homer:


I'd like to see the weight difference in:
Toyota - Diamond, HP8", 6 Shooters, Tacoma brakes, Longs
609 - Diamond, TruHi9, Reid knuckles, 1/2ton brakes, 35 spline whatever

Probably 100lbs or so. and the 609 is easily MUCH stronger.



That said, the next Toyota I build will have a FF 9.5" rear (stock) and a 9.5" front (stock SF housing with FJ80 ends, stock ABS knuckles). But that will be be in a light weight 4 cyl rig where the stock housings will hold up fine, and I have the capability of building the front housing myself.
 
#27 ·
Purists :flipoff2: that exact statement is why I posted this thread in gen4x4. But everyone has made great points, why build a custom toy housing that will cost you 4k if everything is new when you can spend that on a custom 609 and have a strong ass axle.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Stock shafts in a 609? :shaking:

How much is a true hi 9 3rd? 2689.00 w/ARB What about wheel hubs? $400(assuming he wants to stay 6 lug) locking hubs that are worth a Damn? (not warn junk) $342.43 not to mention the cost of a donor axle $600?(Dana 50) or the cost of new C's, knuckles, and spindles.

$4032 before housing or shafts

I would like to see a parts breakdown showing a 609 build that could be done for around the same cost as a custom FJ80.

The fact that he could have room for upgrades is a big plus, but I think either axle listed would be overkill already for the wheelin style described.

Plus IF he did break a shaft (long or 44rcv) it would be under warranty.


I totally understand everyones thinking, but most people on here like to beat their rigs on the hardest trails they can find. (me included) If this guy said that he wanted to do anything like that, then I would agree on a 60 or 609.

That's all I got ta say about that :flipoff2:

EDIT for prices
 
#34 ·
FJ80

High pinion 8" with arb from marlin $1,599.00

longfield hub gears $120
Fror hub studs $70
Wheel hubs (with donor axle)
Donor axle $600 (plus you can sell the third for $200)

$2189

I didn't include a housing or shafts in either total (roughly the same cost)

Am I missing something? :confused:

Maybe someone can do a more complete break down
Yes, you missed multiple things and are being kind of ridiculous about it. Not only did the OP say he was going for aftermarket axleshafts (that you didn't mention), he also specified getting an aftermarket axle housing for his build. Go ahead and add both of those into your build cost, and THEN compare it to a budget 609 build like mine. On top of that, I specifically linked damn near every single part necessary for a budget 609 build, most being pirate sales of which I was the buyer. I've had that axle under my rig for 1.5 years now and has not given me a single issue.

After all your talk of pirate making people overspend, you're really shaking your head at the idea of running stock D60 shafts in a 609 build? I'm pretty sure there are charts somewhere showing that blingy 30 spline chromoly Toy shafts are damn near equivelant, or possibly slightly better than a stock dana 60 shaft. I paid less than $200 for the set of stock dana 60 shafts in my 609. I have 36's under a 5k lb+ rig, and I have not been able to find the failure point in th efront axle. Though I did find a failure point in a 1330-1350 u-joint and a rear 9" ring gear in this video lol
Agitated Pancake u-joint carnage at Moon Rocks 4/30/11 - YouTube
 
#32 ·
FJ80

High pinion 8" with arb from marlin $1,599.00

longfield hub gears $120
Fror hub studs $70
Wheel hubs (with donor axle)
Donor axle $600 (plus you can sell the third for $200)

$2189

I didn't include a housing or shafts in either total (roughly the same cost)

Am I missing something? :confused:

Maybe someone can do a more complete break down
 
#33 · (Edited)
-I haven't seen a fj80 front for $600 in a while.
-hp8.8 can save some money over a true hi9
-yes, stock 60 inners in a 60/9
-balljoint for fronts are dirt cheap
-the r&p *should* be the weak link in either of his original options. Nothing but frustration and disappointment at that point.
- I think he can build a 9" based axle in the same ballpark as the polished turds. No it won't be polished, but as you are saying, he shouldn't need a polished 9" based axle, but at least the options would be there.
-if he had a 3000 lb buggy instead of a 5000 lb truck, I may recommend one of the turds.
 
#37 · (Edited)
I didn't include the housings or shafts in either total, because I figured they would be roughly the same costs.

As far as stock shafts in the 609 he said 35-37" tires so I doubt he would want to be full width.

You might be able to get one close to the same costs but then it would just be
decent in my opinion. And the op sounds like he is the type that wouldn't build it that way. It would probably be one of those snow ball builds, "well its only a little more for this and I mine as well get chromo shafts"

He did mention that the rig may turn into a more extreme wheeler, so maybe the 9 is the better option (never said it wasn't, just seemed overkill)
 
#41 ·
I didn't include the housings or shafts in either total, because I figured they would be roughly the same costs.

As far as stock shafts in the 609 he said 35-37" tires so I doubt he would want to be full width.
Knuckles to me would be an added cost outside of housing and shafts seeing as I could if I wanted to run a stock setup on 60 outers but would not want to on 80 outers. Even though adding that to the factor your still within reason to spend a few more $$ to get a stronger 609.
Getting stock shafts resplined isn't that difficult is it?
 
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