just curious on everyones thoughts. will most rigs stay straight and continue to swap IFS to straight or will the independents win out and soon everyone will be swapping to ifs to ultra4 style independent.
Ultra4 hasn't found the limits of a solid axle yet. There's still room for improvement in tuning and packaging/strength, and it hasn't been displaced on the podium consistently enough to matter.
IFS is cool and trendy and obviously works well too. But it's not needed to build a competitive car IMO. Give both a few years and see where it goes, however I don't see the straight axle going away any time soon.
That being said, I'm building a TTB race rig. :laughing: just tryin something different to see what happens...
Theres alot of ifs out there wheelin. The problem its factory based bs that breaks to much. The ultra 4 style ifs is badass & all but not finacially feaseable for most of us.
The next step for solid axle cars is ditching the full hydro in favor of a steering box or power rack. It's not easy to build a hydro assist steering system for a 4-link suspension though.
I don't think he asked which is better- he asked what there will be in the future. Application doesn't matter. When the OEMs quit making straight axles, everything will change over eventually.
i think until a few builders start putting out some ifs kits that come close to what a well built spider 9 or 14 bolt front cost most builds will be solid axle. if some companies start putting out kits for 10k or less for ifs i think it will get attractive real quick. look at nick nelsons car in the rise of the east movie. unbelievable.
That said i do think solid axle has a lot of untapped potential. a car built from scratch with a solid axle can be fast as hell. i co drove for paul hoffman 4483 last year, we barley tapped the surface in one tuning session with ads shocks and we were soaking up everything at 95 like it was nothing. it was amazing but it also let us overdrive the car and roll at about mile 35 or so (small talent tank and no time to pre run). that car and a few others convinced me ifs isnt needed yet.
my new car from jimmys 4x4 will be done soon and its rear engine solid axle. basically a solid axle version of nicks car. if i had the budget i would have gone ifs. right now its out of most guys budget.
True Crawling/Cone dodging - straight axle till the end
4400 - Will be dominated by IFS once the dust settles
4500 - Will be todays 4400 SAS cars with a steering box
4600 - Will be everybody else's janky ass crap :flipoff2:
Bill won at RC didnt he? Shannon won at Miller? Jason won in Tx?
All great drivers. Put them in cadillacs and they'd probably win also.
For the future. It really depends. If more and more Rocks are introduced straight axle will be the king but I dont think that really is the objective of Ultra 4. By racing everything and doing everything I really think IFS will begin to start to shine as the cost of the parts come down and more guys build them. Will straight axles be very very competitive? I do think so. I really think there is a lot of improvement to be seen and am very excited to see Lucas's car go. Really wish Nazir would bring that hotrod back out. Very capable rigs. But in the same breath I do think that IFS will start to shine more as more and more teams build them to race. Are they worth the 25k-30k to do it right now? No. Not a chance in hell. When they hit more like 10k it'll be worth it.
I can see IFS dominating as more teams build them. IFS would be awesome in short course and speaking with Bill he has some really really great ideas.
IFS/IRS could be very cool for short course. You could adjust camber and toe to make the car do what you want for a specific track. For example toeing the front out, and the rear in... would make the front attack corners very aggressively and oversteer the rear very easily. 4 wheel powersliding (drifting) with much less effort.
I think qualifying rounds before races are a great way to gauge cars and drivers, as it removes the element of mechanical failure over long races that tends to skew results sometimes. 1000s of things can take you out in a 6 hour race that is unrelated to your front suspension. Of course the fact that a good driver makes his car survive in a long race is true, but if we are just comparing straight up car setups...
Consistently winning/placing high in qualifying rounds (just running off of my memory here):
Derek West
Jason Scherer
Shannon Campbell
Erik Miller
Two "old" solid axle cars, two new IFS cars. All great drivers. More often than not all these rounds were competed against one another at the particular race.
IFS is the future, and not just for Ultra 4 or desert racing.
you can currently only buy 3 new 4x4's with a solid front axle
versus every half ton truck
most SUV's
and a few 3/4 & 1-ton trucks.
IFS is the future, but the price and technology to make it strong enough for the everyday guy to go beat the tar out of with big axles is still out of reach.
I don't see those three 4x4's :Ford super duty, Ram HD, and Wrangler leaving solid axles any time soon, but the rest of the market could deal with some good IFS parts as well.
You magazine guys have been saying that IFS is the future for well over 20 years now. The only thing that has changed is 20 years ago y'all were moaning about it. :flipoff2:
What's the suspension choice of the future actually going to be? It'll be just like it has been for the last 20ish years: Mostly IFS, with solid front axles in situations where they are desirable, from the manufacturers anyway. On custom builds it'll probably be the opposite. There isn't a clear winner on which one is better because each of them works best in specific situations, and most people who go wheeling use their 4x4s in a variety of situations.
Danger Ranger may have summed up lots. Go fast point and shoot, steering accuracy, or ride quality=IFS. Technical = SAS
Both have equal articulation if designed correctly.
If you need turning greater than 32'-35' then you will want SASE or TTB
The crystal ball.....
OEM has to be considering the narrow/offset pinion Weismann center ideas to fit their future builds which may help bring IFS to the trail runner. 4400 is now "premium built" as are almost all in (desert) racing. All ideas will be tried and further developed. Not much cookie cutter. IFS probably has more potential at this point with narrow centers allowing most articulation/cushion in droop for ground clearance and/or some added turning. Straight axle improvements will be around mechanical steering (Jesse, etc) or rack (electric?) which may overcome a major advantage of IFS.
Actually this debate should consider shock advancements (SAS) and tire developments (IFS) that have allowed advancement and experimentation..
Ask any serious competing crawler about IFS and you will probably get a NO.
Ask any 4400 driver who has driven a IFS car and they probably won't go back.
A graded track will almost negate any advantage of IFS....other than steering. (Edit: Maybe not. Forgot about adjustments...but so did sprint cars)
After watching Ultra4 type races, a properly set up IFS car makes great teams even greater! If you doubt that, watch the 2012 KOH movie when Jason Sherer was passing several cars in the open desert with one hand on the wheel and the other reaching for his latte filled camel back! Ask Loren after KOH 13! The IFS neutralizer is big rock and probably vertical climbs. Not a lot of that in KOH anymore! Heck, how many good teams have we seen never crack top 5, show up with a bad a$$ IFS car and not only have podium finishes, but stand on the top! If you watch Nick and Shannon in the rocks, Nick is consistently faster. The longer the desert sections the bigger the separation between capabilities my.02cents
Guess you missed Shannon passing Scherer on backdoor in 2011. I do agree as the big rocks and legitimate rock trails disappear in U4, the IFS cars will run away with it.
The way this thread is going... When are the winches going to stay off at JV? I hope this is not in the future, but will help IFS more. Dave campaigned and promoted the IFS concept early on also.
The question was not based solely around racing BUT I think its a safe assumption that where racing goes everyone will follow or wish they where. It will def get rough as more trucks ditch solid axles. Especially because eventually it will take away the middle ground the middle ground trail people won't be able to just upgrade slightly to a 44 they will be forced into tons. Which then makes them harder to be found. I could see a good market for a non extreme housing. Something strong that a small guy would mass produce. Maybe a front housing based on 8.8 centers.
I'm looking forward to see how laproscopic (last starfighter build) and mosebilt's IFS cars will do at KOH. They look like top notch builds, we'll see what the drivers can do with them:smokin:
delrin spacer on air bump contacts top of upper arm..its a little loud but you get used to it. Cant har it with helmet on anyway
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
Pirate 4x4
18.7M posts
366.4K members
Since 2000
A forum community dedicated to custom off-road vehicle owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about trail reports, builds, performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, fabrication, drivetrain, and more!