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Old 03-29-2014, 11:07 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Gear pattern check

check my pattern? Sterling 10.5
These are 5.38 gears, arb carrier, B/L .008. Pinion bearings at proper preload, and carrier bearings preloaded so the carrier takes a bit of effort to remove. ( no case spreader provision, used super carrier shims so they can be hammered in tight)

Drive



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Old 03-30-2014, 06:35 AM   #2 (permalink)
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It is a little deep. If it were me, I'd take out about 0.003-0.005" and re check the pattern.
You are pretty close but just a hair deep.
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Old 03-30-2014, 08:02 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Yep, pinion is a little deep. Remove some shim and try it again
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Dovenosed 5 speed WJ on 9"s
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Old 03-30-2014, 08:15 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Thanks guys. My last pattern was just a touch higher . I thought it was too high so I went to this. Added .005 I'll go back to that and repost pics

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Old 03-30-2014, 08:49 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Took out .003
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Old 03-30-2014, 08:54 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Still too deep. Sorry I'm not great with guessing how much, but I'd try a larger jump for this next one
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Dovenosed 5 speed WJ on 9"s
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Old 03-30-2014, 10:31 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Definitely still too deep.

What I like to do during my initial patterns is make pretty big changes at first, like .010" at a time until you see the pattern flop to the opposite extreme. If you notice the sharp, distinct line at the root of the pattern, that is what is telling us and you that the pattern is too deep. When you go far enough in the opposite extreme you will see that sharp, distinct line in the paint at the top of the tooth instead. As soon as the pattern jumps to showing that the pinion is too shallow, stop removing pinion shims. Going far enough to see the pattern shift to the opposite extreme (too shallow) will help you understand what you are looking for as far as the ideal pattern. Once it does, you know your pattern is somewhere in between your last .010" change and you can start making small changes back in the other direction.
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Old 03-30-2014, 10:47 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Still too deep. Sorry I'm not great with guessing how much, but I'd try a larger jump for this next one
Is it the sweeping toward the toe that indicates its too deep? More so than the actual depth of the pattern? Kind of a dumb question I guess on my part. Just trying to wrap my head around gear voodoo a little better


Tomorrow after work I'm gonna try and get another change in before I take my kid to softball. Ill have to shuffle the carrier as well to get the B/L back in spec.
I definitely appreciate your help
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Old 03-30-2014, 10:53 PM   #9 (permalink)
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When I look at gear patterns, inside to outside movements of the pattern on the teeth play little role and usually fall into place when you get the other aspects of gear setup in place. When looking at pinion depth and trying to decide the next step, I see the pattern either frowning at me (deep), or smiling at me (shallow). If you look at the tip of the teeth as the "top", and the root as the "bottom", your patten has a flat bottom line, and a "frowning" upper cutoff line which represents a pattern too deep. If your pattern has a flat upper cutoff line, but a "smiling lower cutoff line (your pattern flipped upside down, top to bottom), it is too shallow. When you have a pattern dialed in, there isn't a distinct pattern with one flat line and one curved line, it becomes a soft oval.

This doesn't apply to used gears though, I hate working with used gears.

*edit* I just realized I just said what MO2500 said, oops! Well explained.
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Dovenosed 5 speed WJ on 9"s

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Old 03-30-2014, 10:57 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Definitely still too deep.

What I like to do during my initial patterns is make pretty big changes at first, like .010" at a time until you see the pattern flop to the opposite extreme. If you notice the sharp, distinct line at the root of the pattern, that is what is telling us and you that the pattern is too deep. When you go far enough in the opposite extreme you will see that sharp, distinct line in the paint at the top of the tooth instead. As soon as the pattern jumps to showing that the pinion is too shallow, stop removing pinion shims. Going far enough to see the pattern shift to the opposite extreme (too shallow) will help you understand what you are looking for as far as the ideal pattern. Once it does, you know your pattern is somewhere in between your last .010" change and you can start making small changes back in the other direction.
This answered my previous question. Thanks
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Old 03-30-2014, 11:40 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Way too deep. I'd probably pull .020 just to see it move and make sure.


I hate being where I think you are right now. Making changes and not seeing anything positive. Chasing my tail for hours with nothing good to come of it. Anymore, when that happens, I make a huge change. Get that pinion so shallow the only way is deeper. For me, this is way faster for me and I can usually nail it in 1 or 2 more tries.
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Old 03-30-2014, 11:41 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MO2500 View Post
Definitely still too deep.

What I like to do during my initial patterns is make pretty big changes at first, like .010" at a time until you see the pattern flop to the opposite extreme. If you notice the sharp, distinct line at the root of the pattern, that is what is telling us and you that the pattern is too deep. When you go far enough in the opposite extreme you will see that sharp, distinct line in the paint at the top of the tooth instead. As soon as the pattern jumps to showing that the pinion is too shallow, stop removing pinion shims. Going far enough to see the pattern shift to the opposite extreme (too shallow) will help you understand what you are looking for as far as the ideal pattern. Once it does, you know your pattern is somewhere in between your last .010" change and you can start making small changes back in the other direction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AgitatedPancake View Post
When I look at gear patterns, inside to outside movements of the pattern on the teeth play little role and usually fall into place when you get the other aspects of gear setup in place. When looking at pinion depth and trying to decide the next step, I see the pattern either frowning at me (deep), or smiling at me (shallow). If you look at the tip of the teeth as the "top", and the root as the "bottom", your patten has a flat bottom line, and a "frowning" upper cutoff line which represents a pattern too deep. If your pattern has a flat upper cutoff line, but a "smiling lower cutoff line (your pattern flipped upside down, top to bottom), it is too shallow. When you have a pattern dialed in, there isn't a distinct pattern with one flat line and one curved line, it becomes a soft oval.

This doesn't apply to used gears though, I hate working with used gears.

*edit* I just realized I just said what MO2500 said, oops! Well explained.
Exactly lol
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Old 03-31-2014, 10:24 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Ok I had exactly 40 minutes today to get another change in. So I made it count. Took out .015 which is exactly what was under the OEM pinion. I also moved carrier .010 closer to increase B/L since it was too far out. The drive is looking good and the coast is better, but the B/L is .004. So I'll open that up a touch tomorrow and see where the coast goes.
Thanks for bearing with me on this one. I've learned a lot so far

Coast



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Old 04-01-2014, 12:20 PM   #14 (permalink)
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That's looking good... But unless your backlash is set correctly, checking the pattern is worthless. Each time you make a pinion depth change, you must reset the backlash to spec! If spec is calling for .006-.010, I usually run in the middle at .008.

.004 is way too tight... You run the chance of not only a noisy gear set, but also busting the head off the pinion
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Old 04-01-2014, 01:30 PM   #15 (permalink)
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That's looking good... But unless your backlash is set correctly, checking the pattern is worthless. Each time you make a pinion depth change, you must reset the backlash to spec! If spec is calling for .006-.010, I usually run in the middle at .008.

.004 is way too tight... You run the chance of not only a noisy gear set, but also busting the head off the pinion
Thanks. I just ran out of time last night or I would have opened it up a little more. I was just a little impatient. More progress tonight
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Old 04-01-2014, 01:33 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Thanks. I just ran out of time last night or I would have opened it up a little more. I was just a little impatient. More progress tonight
As long as you already know
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Old 04-01-2014, 07:37 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I took your advise and moved the pinion a bunch. Sure enough the frown turned to a smile. Then I made small changes back until the edges feathered on the drive side.
The coast side has a faint line but any corrections there put my drive side slightly off.

I have to admit that I got confused on the order of the pics on those changes. So for now I'll leave those out of the mix. I marked #'s on these last ones so I know I got the right ones. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and call this good enough to run. I have no problem working it a little more if necessary though. Again thank you guys for your help on this.

B/L is .007
Drive side


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Old 04-01-2014, 07:39 PM   #18 (permalink)
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FYI B/L spec says .006-.010
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Old 04-02-2014, 04:13 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Run it !!!!
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Old 04-02-2014, 09:47 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Looks a little deep. I like a little deep
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Old 04-02-2014, 09:58 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Looks a little deep. I like a little deep
Guess that means Run It! LOL This is going in a trailer queen. It will probably never see more than 60mph
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Old 04-02-2014, 10:42 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Run it. You got good advice and learned a lot. For what it's worth, most "good" aftermarket gears today should set up within +/- .005 of stock shim. This won't always be the case, but outside that range leads to a lot of gear returns as the average installer won't make the large shim changes needed to find the sweet spot, they try a few and send back as "won't set up".

Ron
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Old 04-02-2014, 11:54 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Run it. You got good advice and learned a lot. For what it's worth, most "good" aftermarket gears today should set up within +/- .005 of stock shim. This won't always be the case, but outside that range leads to a lot of gear returns as the average installer won't make the large shim changes needed to find the sweet spot, they try a few and send back as "won't set up".

Ron
This is an understatement for sure. I did learn a lot and im grateful for the help
Its funny you mention being close to the old specs. THis one is damn near exactly the same as the old pattern. I just figured since i was going from a stock carrier to an ARB that i couldnt count on that.
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Old 04-02-2014, 01:03 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Yeah, run the shit out of it! lol

I always start with the stock shim thicknesses. Regardless if I'm just doing a re-gear or changing carrier or even both. Sometimes it's not possible, but that is the exception to the rule.

I also always take a before pattern, if possible. See what the gears tell you before you even take it apart. Check the backlash and pinion preload as well. Learn everything from what your working on, then tear it down and clean it really well. It does take a little extra time to do this, but it sure makes for a quality setup when your done and less headache while working on it.
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