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Old 06-01-2014, 01:27 AM   #151 (permalink)
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This cracks me up. A dyno is a great tuning aid and for bragging rights. I Know what the motor is and I wouldn't doubt that it's around 800hp. There is even more to be factored in that what has been said, running a high stall converter hides hp on a dyno. My Eel Camino made 398 hp to the tires on the same model dyno. I run a 4200 stall converter, on a engine dyno it made 630. A friends turbo mustang made 1600 hp on a engine dyno and we had a hard time getting it to break 1000 on our dyno.

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Old 06-01-2014, 02:43 AM   #152 (permalink)
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Dynojet gives you a correction factor of 20% for parasitic drag, drop your rwhp numbers by 20% for the real thing.

1/4 mile slip from your local drag strip will give you rwhp too and it's more fun than a dyno.

HP = (MPH 234) Weight
How can that ever be correct without factoring air resistance?
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:39 AM   #153 (permalink)
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And people wonder why nobody post builds anymore. Who gives a shit about what dyno reads what!

Cool build guy's. Can't wait to see it in person. Keep the tech coming.
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:25 AM   #154 (permalink)
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And people wonder why nobody post builds anymore. Who gives a shit about what dyno reads what!
Cool build guy's. Keep the tech coming.
X2!
Stop bitching and enjoy the info
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Old 06-01-2014, 08:07 AM   #155 (permalink)
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And people wonder why nobody post builds anymore.

This is just a link to a build thread, sorry I said a damn thing.

When Jason is lapping you and you're pinned you'll know how much HP he has.
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Old 06-01-2014, 08:51 AM   #156 (permalink)
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Regardless of what it ends up being it is way more badass than my car will ever be. I has been a really cool build to watch come together. Especially that fast.
The build didn't start until most all of the pieces were scouted, engineered, and pretty much on-hand. The "Rage 4th " team, and those noted have been together for several years and wrenched several cars. Cars from Shannon Campbell, Tribe IFS 4x4, a comp crawler named "Tiny," and lately Lance's IFS car which had seen several builders at the beginning of the IFS craze.

It was time to put all that experience into a new creation. For almost the last year, Jason sought out new ideas being used in Pro4, desert racing and rally. Where was the next level? How could we improve what we have? He talked with anyone with new ideas... including other drivers. J sought talented people, but he is also talented from the years of modifying and maintaining all these great rides. A "true" next level is on the back burner for now as those ideas are being being designed and tested in a "lesser" enviornment. Many of those ideas sparked portions of this this build, however.

At KOH, the team had time to note all the things that they DIDN'T want in a new build. The team was to start with the build mostly in their heads, but with the main, improved suspension systems, engine, trans, transfercase, and other main parts locked in. It is a build for racing, but also for maintaining. The building was to start soon after KOH......it is fun to go back and look at those first pictures...An engine and seat on the steel table.

There are a LOT of hidden contributors here!!!!!!!

Here are a few areas that will be hidden with ducting and panels on race day as well as a few details for the experienced eye.

Back to work! Tic Toc.
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Old 06-01-2014, 09:03 AM   #157 (permalink)
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Run a couple of summer races to make sure it works then tear it down for paint, powder coat and chrome?

LSX is a 454, right?
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Old 06-01-2014, 08:51 PM   #158 (permalink)
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Haters goin' to hate!!! But I'm with Will on the HP#.
Backing into flywheel horsepower is dirty math at best with lots of ASSumptions

Unicorn was just shy of 740 on the engine dyno for break in. I've had it on a roller dyno since the car got built and back to Texas. But we didnt do HP pulls, it was all about tuning (off idle, chopped throttle type stuff). So I dont know what the parasitic % is, I wish we woulda done it for shits, but at the time, I was paying for dynotime and we just ran out.

But then again anyone whos heard the Unicorn doesnt doubt the HP numbers. And I hope for you guys your new car bugs get worked out much faster. #prototypical
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:07 AM   #159 (permalink)
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Haters goin' to hate!!!
That's the only reason I come on Pirate.





Just get tired of seeing guys (prospective customers for many) reading stuff like "800 hp" on the interweb and shying away from this sport because of the perceived notion that you need a $200-300k car to be competitive.




When in reality all you need to do is buy a proven car, ready to race for a third of that. FOR SALE.




Carry on with your sweet ass car build thread Jason.
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:28 AM   #160 (permalink)
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That's the only reason I come on Pirate.





Just get tired of seeing guys (prospective customers for many) reading stuff like "800 hp" on the interweb and shying away from this sport because of the perceived notion that you need a $200-300k car to be competitive.




When in reality all you need to do is buy a proven car, ready to race for a third of that. FOR SALE.




Carry on with your sweet ass car build thread Jason.
No it's all good. I should have stated earlier that the video I took of the run wasn't the best run either. Like the Unicorn on the dyno, we only cared about how it worked when you were doing real world stuff....not a lot of drag strips at our races..but when you do hit a dry lake bed or long straight it's good to know it's not lean when you're 14:1 compression.

Okay so some tech...this is pirate right? I run a factory computer..from Pac Fab. But I run 110 leaded with the compression so no 02's and we found in the last car that the bypass valves would simulate knocking sounds. How'd I find out? I would get in choppy whoops at 60-80 and the car would fall on it's face. The RLC dash was tied to the OBD2 port and I could watch all the sensors after a run. Watched the knocks and saw them go crazy...so I had the car tuned with no knocks. What's the problem with that?

When you dyno you usually have ideal conditions. You not in 100 degree heat in an uphill sandy wash with temps climbing. Brian Kirby's idea and it's simple and easy. You turn the fan's off, get the car to 230 and do dyno runs making sure you pull enough timing out that it doesn't detonate. Once we had that the factory computer has like 7 different temp settings and you get them set to pull timing as it heats up. Problem solved, less sensors and still dynamic. The dyno run I filmed was running 8 degrees less timing at 220 degrees.

Oh, and I'm really impressed that the tuners had the high numbers on HP and actually did things like tape measure the tire vs. read the sidewall etc to get the estimated crank HP on their formula but it doesn't really matter and I agree it's probably overstated. One thing I can say is that my old LS7 vs. this LS7 isn't even comparable...this one is Wild!!
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:43 AM   #161 (permalink)
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Your Ackerman looks pretty extreme in this picture. It looks like more than "correct" Ackerman.
agreed...I didn't really look at the picture much until you pointed it out...it has to be the "fisheye" of the camera because it doesn't look like that in person. That and possibly a little toe out as we hadn't set the toe until...well I'll add that to the list
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:44 AM   #162 (permalink)
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fascinating, thanks for sharing that.

good luck wrapping up, and this weekend!
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:46 AM   #163 (permalink)
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J is doing a ton of work himself to keep that part of the costs down. I believe Dan Trout is back on it this week to finish up some last tubes and tabs. As with all of us that DIY...It is the $55 snap ring plier that you have to buy because you have broken all that you had trying to get the 3 1/2" snap rings out of the ByPass shocks to change the valving....that adds to the unknown. You also realize the limitations of some of the fab equipment (Chinese) that you have purchased to just get a job done, instead of better for true precision continual work. Even drill motors and impacts are starting to fail. We are also into backyard scavenging of materials working to make the date. All is good.

Great experience!
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Old 06-02-2014, 11:24 AM   #164 (permalink)
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Okay so some tech...this is pirate right? I run a factory computer..from Pac Fab. But I run 110 leaded with the compression so no 02's and we found in the last car that the bypass valves would simulate knocking sounds. How'd I find out? I would get in choppy whoops at 60-80 and the car would fall on it's face. The RLC dash was tied to the OBD2 port and I could watch all the sensors after a run. Watched the knocks and saw them go crazy...so I had the car tuned with no knocks. What's the problem with that?

When you dyno you usually have ideal conditions. You not in 100 degree heat in an uphill sandy wash with temps climbing. Brian Kirby's idea and it's simple and easy. You turn the fan's off, get the car to 230 and do dyno runs making sure you pull enough timing out that it doesn't detonate. Once we had that the factory computer has like 7 different temp settings and you get them set to pull timing as it heats up. Problem solved, less sensors and still dynamic. The dyno run I filmed was running 8 degrees less timing at 220 degrees.
There it is on the knocks!!!
EZ unplugged ours at the Parker425, I believe in Pit3, for what we believed to be the same thing happening. When I took the whole car up to Mast they said no problem on it running with them unplugged it didnt help or hurt.

Why the shy away from Wideband O2's, or was it a compression issue that dictated the fuel, that dictated no O2's?
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Old 06-02-2014, 04:21 PM   #165 (permalink)
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1410 yoke?
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Old 06-02-2014, 06:27 PM   #166 (permalink)
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:20 PM   #167 (permalink)
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Interesting note on the knock sensors, we see that in ohc engines with chain slap.. Pulls out all the timing. Lol
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:31 PM   #168 (permalink)
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1480
What are you using on the atlas end? is someone making a 32 spline 1480 forged yoke? or is it flanged?
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:03 AM   #169 (permalink)
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What are you using on the atlas end? is someone making a 32 spline 1480 forged yoke? or is it flanged?
It is flanged in the pictures. There was some discussion of maybe switching to a yoke, but that may be the reason it doesn't have one.
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Old 06-03-2014, 07:14 AM   #170 (permalink)
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What are you using on the atlas end? is someone making a 32 spline 1480 forged yoke? or is it flanged?
Yes Northern Drivetrain has them, forged 1480 yokes in stock. Gabe was very helpful.
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Old 06-03-2014, 11:46 AM   #171 (permalink)
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1480 all around or staying 1350 on the front ?

I broke a 1350 rear at KOH in 2 wheel peel out back, first driveline failure for me in competition. Alwyas had 1410 before....

Wrong place to save weight i guess.
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Old 06-03-2014, 02:09 PM   #172 (permalink)
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1480 all around or staying 1350 on the front ?

I broke a 1350 rear at KOH in 2 wheel peel out back, first driveline failure for me in competition. Alwyas had 1410 before....

Wrong place to save weight i guess.
1350 for the front diff to atlas. 1410 so we could run 3.5" tubing on intermediary shaft from atlas to carrier bearing then 1480 to diff. Now Trans is 1480 to atlas input as well.

1410 isn't stronger than 1350 in my opinion. Same size caps and bearings and larger trunion. I suppose I could argue it's weaker but allows more angle and larger tubing. Just a thought.
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Old 06-03-2014, 04:11 PM   #173 (permalink)
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With a wider trunion and the same bearings and caps, wouldn't it need to apply less pressure through the bearings per torque vs the narrower trunion, making the 1410 theoretically stronger (by what margin, I have absolutely no clue).

AlumCJ, what gears are you running in the axles? Less reduction in the axle means more torque through the driveshaft. I've been able to kill 1310 and 1330 stuff pretty easily on my trail jeep, but the plan is to run 1350's on the new build. No personal experience with how they hold up yet though.

The info (and better yet, your reasons for doing things the way you did) has been awesome to see and sift through. Thanks for sharing it all with us!
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Old 06-03-2014, 05:46 PM   #174 (permalink)
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5.43 and a descent engine (high 3's to the wheels)
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:34 PM   #175 (permalink)
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1410 has more meat around the caps so it is indeed stronger . 1350 on its best day 2,500 ft-lbs of torque, 1410 3,300 ft-lbs , 1480 on its best day 5,500 . Its due to the support of the cap . All of these torque #'s are learned from real world experience not a book, and based on all steel components not cast parts such as slip yokes. I am pretty sure Mark williams had the th-400 1480 .
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