Steering issue, looking for geometry and physics based input. Experts? Super Duty 60 - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > General Tech > General 4x4 Discussion
Notices

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-12-2014, 09:57 PM   #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
PilotGuyZJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Member # 173564
Location: El Paso TX
Posts: 633
Steering issue, looking for geometry and physics based input. Experts? Super Duty 60

Hey guys, been having a weird steering issue that i've been "dealing" with and finally have the front axle torn apart, figured I might as well get some input in see what the gurus say.

Background info, rig is a 93 Jeep ZJ turned Dirt Riot racer.



Axle in question is a 2003 Super Duty Dana 60, 5.38s, factory knuckles and unit bearings and outer set up. Steering is all RuffStuff 1.5 DOM with 7/8 heims, PSC steering box with ports, PSC hydro assist cylinder, matching PSC pump on the 5.9, with PSC gen 4 reservoir and hose kit. All matched. And a plate style 8x10 in power steering cooler.

Tires are 40x13.5 Nittos on 17x9 Steel, DIY beadlocks. ~5in back spacing.

So here is the odd issue. The steering is awesome, very easy, one finger style. Tracks straight, speeds up past 80mph, no issue, great alignment.

HOWEVER, some times at a stop, the wheel will literally "lock". I can pull as hard as physically possible on the wheel, and it will not budge. It feels like manual steering, BUT, as soon as I let of the brakes, it works like a charm. It seems as long as the wheels can move forward ever so slightly, it gets all its assist back. Its the oddest thing.

Things i've done. Bled the system. Seriously, 10-20 times. Tires in the air, on jack stands, on the ground, etc. Its not an air issue.

I've tried flipping the lines on the cooler, in on top, out on bottom, vice versa, trying to help bleed, no issues.

I've tried multiple different tie rod mounts on the knuckle, and different holes in my track bar set up. No changes. Right now I have them set what I call perfect, with each parallel and as flat as can be, for the ride height. And i've tried different ride heights on the coil overs, higher, lower etc.

Here's some pictures of the set up, reservoir is higher than the pump, short as possible line, maybe 6-8 inches.





(This pic is with the track bar in the middle hole, and the drag link below the double shear)

I normally run it with the track bar in the top hole and the drag link above the double shear, with a spacer below it and above the tie rod.

Ive had the drag link above and below the double shear mount, i like it above to lessen the angles.



I had once blown a seal on the front cover during a race, and kept putting fluid it to finish the last laps.



Changed the O ring



So the steering still works great, so to speak. I have run the last 3 races like this, and it only becomes a minor inconvenience if im hard on the brakes and trying to make a super tight u turn, some times I will have to let of the brake and get the wheel turned, then hit em again. Kinda got used to it.

So, I am interested in the theory and physics involved in a few possible scenarios.


#1 - could it be a caster issue? Its set at ~7*, and handles great, even on the street, and even on the high way, no shimmy, no weird issues. It's only at a dead stop - 3 mph, and only once in a while? Should I play with upper links and try a few different caster angles? Would that cause an issue at a stop, if the ball joints are in a weird relationship to the steering plane?

#2 I have had the unit bearings and axle shafts out a few times, and not quite sure that the plastic thrust washer in between the stub shaft and the unit bearing, on the back side is in there (was a junkyard axle build). After research, i guess its their to keep the u joint in the same plane as the ball joint? Is it possible that this small, maybe 1/8-1/16th of an inch could bind it up, to the point it wont steer until the axle rotates, thus allowing the shaft to move laterally back into the same plane? Theres a lot of force from a steering box, plus assist ram. Would it keep it from turning?

#3 could it be something inside the box? I imagine if the sector shaft was binding, it would do it at all speeds? Could it be a spool valve sticking? Again, i would assume that it would do it anytime, not at a stop.

#4 could it be a back spacing issue? Causing a weird scrub radius? Would that keep a assist cylinder and box from being able to push the tires? Seems unlikely, and it can do it as long as im not on the brakes.

The biggest thing is that the brakes are involved. I can sit at idle, no foot on the brakes and turn back and forth just fine. lock to lock with one finger. But if I hold the brakes, It locks up after about half lock, and wont steering until i let off and roll a tad. Which leads me to believe its a funky geometry thing, either with caster or the u joint getting out of plane.

EDITED: not sure it matters, seen it done plenty, the tie rod has about a 5* bend in each end, to help it clear the diff cover (common problem on the superduty axles)

Sooooo.... experts? Gurus? Any theories? Id like to get it fixed before this season starts.
__________________
ZJ Juggy #247 W.E.Rock/DirtRiot
4WDFactory / AMSOIL / FOA / NITRO GEAR & AXLE

Last edited by PilotGuyZJ; 12-12-2014 at 10:14 PM.
PilotGuyZJ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-12-2014, 11:23 PM   #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Member # 10
Location: Magna, UT
Posts: 1,596
Didn't see you mention it, but do you have hydroboost brakes? If so, that's likely your culprit.
__________________
Carl Whitmore
I Lean is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Old 12-12-2014, 11:28 PM   #3 (permalink)
Rock God
 
jemarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Member # 50690
Location: Rainier, OR
Posts: 1,942
Send a message via MSN to jemarshall
X2 on Hydro Boost
__________________
For the best deal on 8 lug disc brakes click here-->
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Quote:
What ever you do, please do not suck start a shot gun.

Stick it up your ass...that way you're likely to hit something vital.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jemarshall is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-12-2014, 11:37 PM   #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
PilotGuyZJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Member # 173564
Location: El Paso TX
Posts: 633
No hydro boost. Steering setup is a Jeep PSC pump on the motor, steering box etc are all PSC jeep parts. Direct swap.

brakes are a jeep ZJ master cylinder with ABS pump and module deleted. Ford superduty stock brakes on the D60 and the sterling rear. Brakes work amazing.
__________________
ZJ Juggy #247 W.E.Rock/DirtRiot
4WDFactory / AMSOIL / FOA / NITRO GEAR & AXLE
PilotGuyZJ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-13-2014, 12:36 AM   #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Member # 50177
Location: simi valley, CA
Posts: 3,954
Your scrub radius does not look too horrible in the pics but if you have any at all the tires have to roll to turn. If you are hard on the brakes that can't happen so you can't steer. Obviously the more your wheels are spaced/offset out the worse this will be.

Steering geometry can't really cause your issue.
__________________
Toyota Link Suspension Systems, Weld On Beadlocks, Custom Fabrication, and More


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



________________________________________________
05 GMC 2500HD d-max, 87 4runner, X chassis rock buggy

my buggy build

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
am4x4 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-13-2014, 02:00 AM   #6 (permalink)
Registered User
 
PilotGuyZJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Member # 173564
Location: El Paso TX
Posts: 633
I'll play with it after I put the front axle back together. What I normally do is this, I've tried jacking the front up , turns lock to lock all day, no issues. Brakes or no brakes. Obviously being in the air it's a no load situation. Then I've taken the ram off the axle, and left the lines hooked up. Turns lock to lock, and the ram exteneds and collapses. No issues. Then re install.

Tried same thing on the ground. Turns lock to all day with no pressure on the pedal. Plenty of assist. I've unhooked the ram, turn wheel, and just the ram extends all the way till it maxes, then the tires begin to move. As it should. Re install. Everything works. Apply brake pressure and I can't turn the wheels , ease off a little, and boom it turns.

I'm thinking the spool valve in the steering box is bent. And its not apply enough pressure to up the boost to over come the resistance of the tires on the ground. (Happens on dirt or pavement).

To be honest, not sure if I've ever had it in park or neutral while trying. I'll try, drive, nuetral and park and see if being in park has the same effect as brakes, i.e. no tire roll.
__________________
ZJ Juggy #247 W.E.Rock/DirtRiot
4WDFactory / AMSOIL / FOA / NITRO GEAR & AXLE

Last edited by PilotGuyZJ; 12-13-2014 at 02:02 AM.
PilotGuyZJ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-13-2014, 09:02 AM   #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Member # 50177
Location: simi valley, CA
Posts: 3,954
Quote:
Originally Posted by PilotGuyZJ View Post
I'll play with it after I put the front axle back together. What I normally do is this, I've tried jacking the front up , turns lock to lock all day, no issues. Brakes or no brakes. Obviously being in the air it's a no load situation. Then I've taken the ram off the axle, and left the lines hooked up. Turns lock to lock, and the ram exteneds and collapses. No issues. Then re install.

Tried same thing on the ground. Turns lock to all day with no pressure on the pedal. Plenty of assist. I've unhooked the ram, turn wheel, and just the ram extends all the way till it maxes, then the tires begin to move. As it should. Re install. Everything works. Apply brake pressure and I can't turn the wheels , ease off a little, and boom it turns.

I'm thinking the spool valve in the steering box is bent. And its not apply enough pressure to up the boost to over come the resistance of the tires on the ground. (Happens on dirt or pavement).

To be honest, not sure if I've ever had it in park or neutral while trying. I'll try, drive, nuetral and park and see if being in park has the same effect as brakes, i.e. no tire roll.
I have a feeling that last test will give you false data. The tires don't have to roll far so the slop in the drive train could take up the slack and allow them to steer. Also keep in mind that one tire turns forward while the other turns backward so if you have any type of locker other than a spool or locked manual locker it will just get taken up in the diff.

There is no other link between your brakes and steering so this pretty much has to be the issue. I had considered a weak pump or damaged box too but if that was the case you would not be able to steer in the rocks and you say it does fine everywhere else so I doubt that is it.
__________________
Toyota Link Suspension Systems, Weld On Beadlocks, Custom Fabrication, and More


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



________________________________________________
05 GMC 2500HD d-max, 87 4runner, X chassis rock buggy

my buggy build

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
am4x4 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-13-2014, 09:12 AM   #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
PilotGuyZJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Member # 173564
Location: El Paso TX
Posts: 633
I agree it may give false, since in park it can "budge" a little and allow steering.

When you say this is the issue , which were you referring too ?

I'm split 50/50 on the cause. On one hand I think the spool valve may have bent, and I over pressurized it trying to keep going and that's what blew the front seal. But that was 2 races ago ? A new box from PSC is $900 and don't eanna go that route. I think a ported durango box would be a cheap suitable replacement. I've got mixed reviews on the PSC boxes from people.

On the other hand I feel it "might" be a caster issue. Something weird with the plane its trying to work in. Picture a bad shopping cart. And I think rolling its OK, but at a stop it can't over come it ? I think I may try tilting the axle rearward a little to 9-10* and see what it does. That's free.

Really the only issue is at a dead stop trying to reposition the wheels during a crawl. Any forward speed or racing its fine. That's why I dealt with it all season.

Just like to get input to what might be the culprite.

EDIT: its a spool in the front. Axle u joints are in "phase" with each other like a drive shaft to eliminate binding. I'll have to play with it more to see if its noticeable with the hubs locked VS unlocked. I've never really played attention If its a 4 vs 2 thing. But I would assume a assist ram and box could turn 40s even with a spool. Specially in dirt.

I may try clocking the axles 90* off from what they are. And see if the issue goes away.
__________________
ZJ Juggy #247 W.E.Rock/DirtRiot
4WDFactory / AMSOIL / FOA / NITRO GEAR & AXLE

Last edited by PilotGuyZJ; 12-13-2014 at 09:15 AM.
PilotGuyZJ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-13-2014, 12:25 PM   #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Member # 492769
Posts: 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by PilotGuyZJ View Post
So here is the odd issue. The steering is awesome, very easy, one finger style. Tracks straight, speeds up past 80mph, no issue, great alignment.

HOWEVER, some times at a stop, the wheel will literally "lock". I can pull as hard as physically possible on the wheel, and it will not budge. It feels like manual steering, BUT, as soon as I let of the brakes, it works like a charm. It seems as long as the wheels can move forward ever so slightly, it gets all its assist back. Its the oddest thing.
Above, you say the problem occurs "some times". This description as intermittent makes diagnosis difficult without a bit more information. I'm going to base my response on the assumption that the nature of the variation is based on surface. In other words, I'm going to assume that if you sit perfectly still on clean pavement and lock the brakes, you notice this steering issue essentially the same way every time. Also it assumes the inverse -- that every time you notice this behavior, you are sitting still with the brakes locked hard.

Second, Am4x4 says your scrub radius doesn't look too bad. Well unless your posted picture has me fooled through lens distortion, your scrub radius looks wicked to me. (I've drawn lines on your pic and attached at bottom of post. I am going to base my response on my belief that you have a large scrub radius.

Ok, my diagnosis: Don't go chasing caster issues - not the problem. Don't go chasing pump issues, etc. None of these fit the description of the behavior that I've assumed above.

In the free mode (brakes unlocked) and sitting still, have someone watch your tires as you turn from steering lock to steering lock. Do they rotate inversely as you steer (in other words, does one turn forward and one backward as steering angle changes). If so, continue with my thoughts. If not, your scrub radius is negligible/non-existent and I'm out.

If tires do rotate inversely with steering input, park on clean pavement and test to make sure the behavior is repeatable under those conditions and that it isn't occurring with the brakes off. If in that position, the behavior comes and goes based on brake application, continue with my thoughts. If not, I'm out.

If in that position, braking behavior makes the issue come and go, place a floor (or bottle or whatever) jack under each side of your axle and one small bit at at time take the weight off the tires. If the behavior progressively receded to nothing as the weight is removed, your problem is simply a scrub radius issue that is exacerbated when both tires are on surfaces that create significant friction.

JB
Attached Images
 

Last edited by ThinAirDesigns; 12-13-2014 at 12:42 PM.
ThinAirDesigns is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-13-2014, 02:28 PM   #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
PilotGuyZJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Member # 173564
Location: El Paso TX
Posts: 633
Awesome reply man. That's the tech info I'm looking for. I'll get it back on the wheels and play with it and report back.

If it is a scrub radius issue would More or less back spacing address the issue? I'm not too well versed in Ackerman and scrub etc.

EDIT : IIRC the stock super duty rims are approximately 6 inches back spacing. Which would pull the rim over the axle more correct ? Putting the center line of the rim more in line with the center line of the ball joint pivot ? Am I correct ? Trying to picture the angles involved.
__________________
ZJ Juggy #247 W.E.Rock/DirtRiot
4WDFactory / AMSOIL / FOA / NITRO GEAR & AXLE

Last edited by PilotGuyZJ; 12-13-2014 at 02:32 PM.
PilotGuyZJ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-13-2014, 02:37 PM   #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Member # 492769
Posts: 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by PilotGuyZJ View Post
Awesome reply man. That's the tech info I'm looking for. I'll get it back on the wheels and play with it and report back.

If it is a scrub radius issue would More or less back spacing address the issue? I'm not too well versed in Ackerman and scrub etc.
The only way to address scrub radius without modifying the hub or KPI (King Pin Inclination), is through wheel backspacing and you would want a rim with larger backspacing to solve that issue.

There are folk on this board far more qualified than I to suggest wheels that will solve/minimize your issue if it is truly a scrub radius issue. I'm sure you can get them to chime in on that.

Good luck.
JB
ThinAirDesigns is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-13-2014, 03:48 PM   #12 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Member # 4375
Location: Quail Valley
Posts: 8,698
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinAirDesigns View Post
The only way to address scrub radius without modifying the hub or KPI (King Pin Inclination), is through wheel backspacing and you would want a rim with larger backspacing to solve that issue.

There are folk on this board far more qualified than I to suggest wheels that will solve/minimize your issue if it is truly a scrub radius issue. I'm sure you can get them to chime in on that.

Good luck.
JB

I think you are closer than not based on the fact that with a spool up front, when he turns, one tire is rolling forward and the other is rolling back essentially locking up the steering.

I thought I saw that he had hubs, that would tell immediately if he can't replicate the issue with them unlocked.
__________________
Stupidity abhors a vacuum
mrblaine is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-13-2014, 04:09 PM   #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Member # 492769
Posts: 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
I think you are closer than not based on the fact that with a spool up front, when he turns, one tire is rolling forward and the other is rolling back essentially locking up the steering.

I thought I saw that he had hubs, that would tell immediately if he can't replicate the issue with them unlocked.
I did not notice his edit which says he is running a spool. This fact changes my thoughts completely.


With spool and hubs engaged, if it's a scrub radius issue, braking won't make a whit of difference because obviously with the drive locked up side to side, one wheel *can't* turn opposite the other brakes or no brakes.

New addition to my test program.

If you are spooled and have no hubs, no need to pursue my test suggestions - they will lead you nowhere of value and I'm stumped (not that hard with me).

If you *have hubs*: lock them, stop on clean pavement with NO brakes and try to turn the wheel. If you consistently can, your problem is not scrub radius related and I'm out.

If you consistently *can't* turn the wheel, even with the brakes off, unlock your hubs and proceed with the test I suggested earlier.

Good luck
JB
ThinAirDesigns is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-13-2014, 04:35 PM   #14 (permalink)
hi-steer ninja
 
FORDTECHGURU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Member # 104639
Location: in da garage
Posts: 3,158
re measure your b/spacing, stock was 4 5/8", that looks like 3.5" to me. with a spool in the front and that much scrub your going to have an issue I would think. it isn't just scrub radius to me but, a lot of lead and trail also..
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
FORDTECHGURU is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-13-2014, 05:43 PM   #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
PilotGuyZJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Member # 173564
Location: El Paso TX
Posts: 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by FORDTECHGURU View Post
re measure your b/spacing, stock was 4 5/8", that looks like 3.5" to me. with a spool in the front and that much scrub your going to have an issue I would think. it isn't just scrub radius to me but, a lot of lead and trail also..
Went out there tonight and re measured. Looks to be right under 5 inch. From the back of the wheel to the mounting surface.

__________________
ZJ Juggy #247 W.E.Rock/DirtRiot
4WDFactory / AMSOIL / FOA / NITRO GEAR & AXLE
PilotGuyZJ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-13-2014, 05:48 PM   #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
PilotGuyZJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Member # 173564
Location: El Paso TX
Posts: 633
My other thought is this... I have it torn apart right now to replaced a unit bearing that took a shit. Long story short, the caliper stuck, heated up nicely, I drove two more laps, the unit bearing actually froze to the stub shaft and sheered it off and the unit bear came apart. Kinda cool actually, haha. But seriously. If this unit bearing was going bad for a while, could it in any way cause this? and it wanted to be able to spin before allowing turning? far fetched maybe?

The parts are in the mail, i'll put the new unit bearing, axle stub and caliper on it, and report back after trying all the above methods.

And yes, it has lock out hubs on it, I can unlock them and test. IIRC it does it with and without them locked, but will verify.


On a side note, these are the thrust washers I DO have, they go on the outside of the stub shaft, before and after the lock out.



The one im refering to being missing is the grey, octagon looking one, with the vacuum relief ports in it, I believe from the Superduty info thread that it goes behind the knuckle, sandwhiched with the stub shaft. Thats the one I have been told keeps the u joint in line with the ball joint. Any ford techs verify?

EDITED: for those that like random carnage pics.

The needle bearing is seized onto the stub shaft, sheared it clean off.



Remains of the UB

__________________
ZJ Juggy #247 W.E.Rock/DirtRiot
4WDFactory / AMSOIL / FOA / NITRO GEAR & AXLE

Last edited by PilotGuyZJ; 12-14-2014 at 09:46 AM.
PilotGuyZJ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-14-2014, 11:43 AM   #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Member # 50177
Location: simi valley, CA
Posts: 3,954
The spool will make steering more difficult but there is slop on your hubs, Hus to stub splines, and axle to spool splines. This all adds up to quite a bit of tire rotation. I don't think the unlocking the hubs test can rule out a scrub related cause because the brakes stop all wheel rotation.

I do agree with the other guy that you have more than ideal scrub and his marked up version of your pic really shows how much. This might just be something you have to live with unless you can find a lot more steering power.

Only other thing I can think of is a poorly matched pump/pulley setup is not giving you enough power at idle but you can still steer in the rocks when the pump is spinning faster. Try putting it in neutral, stand on the brakes then bring the engine rpm up and see if you can turn.
__________________
Toyota Link Suspension Systems, Weld On Beadlocks, Custom Fabrication, and More


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



________________________________________________
05 GMC 2500HD d-max, 87 4runner, X chassis rock buggy

my buggy build

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
am4x4 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-14-2014, 11:22 PM   #18 (permalink)
hi-steer ninja
 
FORDTECHGURU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Member # 104639
Location: in da garage
Posts: 3,158
Yes the grey washer goes between the stub and the unit. Keeps lateral axle movement in check and keeps the stub from metal to metal contact with the unit.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
FORDTECHGURU is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

** A VERIFICATION EMAIL IS SENT TO THIS ADDRESS TO COMPLETE REGISTRATION!! **

Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.