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Old 01-31-2017, 01:22 PM   #126 (permalink)
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Joe Thompson dropped a few pics of the new gomez car last week. There's aiot of cool stuff going on there
Saw that on FB, very cool, but who is the builder (I don't keep up enough.) Is he on here?

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Who's racing the unicorn this year?
Not sure on racing schedule, it's back alive in TX, Josh Hess is apparently the new owner's name
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Old 01-31-2017, 04:02 PM   #127 (permalink)
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Which one's the 500g one?

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Old 01-31-2017, 08:42 PM   #128 (permalink)
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New Gomez car built by Joe Thompson + in NorCal. IFS/IRS

The car generally looks like a departure from the other two builds and will have it's own character. The IFS' has been pretty reliable.

The IRS is not TTB. There must be a mega center CV and pivot of some sort and it does have a long trailing arm like a TTB to locate the outer (front to back) At full stuff you can see the toe that is normal Buggy but top and bottom arms allow camber adjustment. As with IFS, you probably have to throw out all that you knew about SA and shocks. Trying a new IRS with less drama but some compromises. For the oldtimers: It is a huge upgrade to the 63-4 J Series IFS. Most would probably prefer the diff to be above a skid. Time will tell. Neat.
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Old 01-31-2017, 10:14 PM   #129 (permalink)
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Which one's the XXXg one? Kevin
I think you would be surprised at the high $$$$ builds if all the people involved "clocked in."

A "normal" IFS can run about $25k in parts and then you get to engineer and fab the arms, upright, bulkhead, and etc. Average seems to be $40k. Many do it cheaper. A few opt for the new tech including $$$ diffs, portals, and big everything. It adds up FAST!

(I surprised myself when I built a 383 SBC several years ago. I added parts up to $14k. Then I built the FI intake before they were available, air cleaner, pan, and pretty much blinged it. At $15/hr, the total came to $75k.) The guys are now buying motors with no bling around $40k and still have to add the accessories, exhaust, electronics, etc. A tranny can cost $25k built. And no one has figured out a diff yet that can take all the abuse at the upper level. All are consumable items.

We know that none of this will buy a win at KOH. There are still those SA cars out there that just work from experience which still making them competitive. I think it has been rare that anyone has won KOH with a perfect day. You usually have to deal with something during the day, and high tech can easily be fatal.

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Old 02-01-2017, 08:00 AM   #130 (permalink)
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Leave for KOH tonight with mine.

https://youtu.be/gYWyC-53OfU
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Old 02-01-2017, 11:11 AM   #131 (permalink)
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The IFS car Jesse Haines built will also be at KOH.
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Old 02-01-2017, 12:39 PM   #132 (permalink)
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There must be a mega center CV and pivot of some sort
There was mention of two CVs in the center on instagram. Definately a unique and complicated departure, but interesting.

One has to wonder at what point do things get too complex to where they're more of a hindrance than a benefit. It will be neat to see what happens in the desert next week.

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Old 02-01-2017, 12:52 PM   #133 (permalink)
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There was mention of two CVs in the center on instagram. Definately a unique and complicated departure, but interesting.

One has to wonder at what point do things get too complex to where they're more of a hindrance than a benefit. It will be neat to see what happens in the desert next week.

Kevin
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Mike Johnson #43 7 time EMC KOH finisher, 6 top 5's
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Old 02-01-2017, 01:10 PM   #134 (permalink)
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Leave for KOH tonight with mine.

https://youtu.be/gYWyC-53OfU
Nice! I was wondering when this one would surface. Good luck!
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Old 02-01-2017, 03:28 PM   #135 (permalink)
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Matt Nieman, Vancouver, B.C. has purchased Mark Underwood's (SOCALMARK) #22 Portal IFS racer. It is completely apart now for inspection, upgrading, and powder coating with the anticipation of running KOH 2017. Matt campaigned his 4487 SA car this year. "Movin on up"

It is probable that the portal portion of both Cody and Matt's rigs were made by [email protected] The aluminum portal boxes use all Unimog 404 internals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxpEydJ420w

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gener...s-chassis.html
Thanks for sharing my vid Ben, We will have some new video to upload from KOH for sure. Matt is already on the lakebed and trying to get some miles in on his new car before the race. Full tear down and newly designed and built arms for the IFS and his car is looking fast.

Bonus points for the #snowmexican wrap this year!
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Old 02-02-2017, 10:12 AM   #136 (permalink)
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Cheers to those builders putting in all the hard work and innovation this year.

There are also those that supported the innovation by making irregular parts to support the individual builds. We have seen different parts from RCV, Spidertrax, and others. The medium size machine shops are responding with larger misalignments and cups to keep up with larger bearings and bushings. As the HP wars increase, the engine and tranny builders are taking note and we are seeing accessories expressly tailored to rock racing. Jimmy's is pioneering torsion bar front driveshafts and yokes (as seen in F1, Indy, and Pro4) in their newer rock rigs. Transfer case companies have up'd their game which is already benefiting all of us.

Drivetrain efficiency still seems to allude. Crank HP on many of the teams are now in the 800hp+ range (Puffed and natural) but only put 500hp+ to the wheels. The autos are a big reason but necessary to absorb and not transmit the suspension and traction shock to the engine. The torsion bars are to help the shock between front and rear axles. Along the way the teams have moved to 40 spline axles, and some IFS parts which again adds to shock transmission. The link that seems to need upgrading is the differential gears. I am not sure where this needs to go but the companies with other ideas (Weismann, Tubeworks, and Australian - ProFormance) have yet to convince the larger rock racing crowd. Independent suspensions accept the larger diffs because they are above a skid so movement is easier in the future. And along with these different diffs come different CV flange to flange distances. This means changes to the suspension and suspension geometry.
This is a skill not easily applied as 4x4 IFS is not well understood...and flat track needs are different than true offroad.

And now there are portals. Several teams are pioneering these. Better clearance and less strain (torque) in the drivetrain is the goal. The jury is still out as drivers are making use of skids more and portals seem to have higher feedback to the drivetrain, steering, and brakes.

14" rotors and 6 puck calipers seem to be the standard for brakes, with teams experimenting with pads. It will be interesting to see where wheel, tire size, and construction goes with the elimination of tire balls...but use of liners.

Shocks continue to make the good/bad/and ugly better. No movement on electronic control yet. It has to be coming. UTV's are pioneering in all areas and should be watched closely.

Fun times in the tech world... Have fun looking at the cars and noticing what they are trying.

Edit: And thanks to those responding to this thread to keep it interesting and relevant!!!!! We miss so much on FB. We are all learning... Cheers!
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Old 02-03-2017, 12:19 PM   #137 (permalink)
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Another to hit the Lakebed. The builds are moving on up to RACE! The "List" has been edited. Congrats all.

Martin Barkey 80 Two seater.... Jimmys..... They have been busy!!!!
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Old 02-06-2017, 12:38 PM   #138 (permalink)
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The IFS car Jesse Haines built will also be at KOH.
I'd love to see some completed pictures of this one. It looked killer when it left Jesse's shop.
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Old 02-16-2017, 09:52 PM   #139 (permalink)
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KOH 2017 4400 IFS Results

A total of 33 IFS Rigs Started in 4400 class of 121 Total Starters
A total of 50 Rigs (15 IFS) finished of the 121 Total Starters.

Finishing Results:
4 IFS / Top 5 Finishers
8 / Top 10
10 / Top 15
12 / Top 20
15 Finishers out of the 33 IFS started.

Qualifying Results:
4 / Top 5
8 / Top 10
12 / Top 15
15 / Top 20
22 / Top 30

• Did not count Vaughn Gettin Jr.?? Numbers as I count them…Not official.
• Maybe more info as “The List” gets updated
• Pretty good odds to be in the top 5 and even 20 with IFS.
• It takes a Driver, Team, and a Rig.
• Thanks to ALL KOH and Ultra4 Sponsors, Organizers, Volunteers!!
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Old 02-16-2017, 10:39 PM   #140 (permalink)
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Let's see some pictures!
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:34 AM   #141 (permalink)
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Any pictures or info on the Jesse Haines IFS car?
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:24 PM   #142 (permalink)
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Three buggies with IFS+IRS finished in the top 13 at KOH2017

Gomez, Cody, Team OPW

Last edited by Sim79; 02-17-2017 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:56 PM   #143 (permalink)
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I'm not sure what Haines IFS car you are talking about. He did build a portal chassis that is now at the owners who is waiting for more budget. Jesse did spend a couple weeks building the frame for a secret project in Texas. The IFS came from Armada and Jesse did an awesome job on the rest of it. It was finished at Wilder Motorsports by Joshua Bertschy, etc. and run at KOH. Apparently the car trashed the tranny in the LCQ. but Bart Dixon used his OG13 standing to start the car at the end of the 4400 class on Friday. Apparently it made it to Spooners before breaking a flange on the transfer case. The car really looks neat.

I also got a video of the Antunac IFS/steerable IRS car during the qualifying run. They did awesome. The suspension sucked up the ditch hits for sure.

All three cars mentioned have something unique. Marcos Gomez new car has a center breaking bottom "arm" that is basically at half shaft height for great ground clearance. Cody Wagoner is running a narrow diff and portals for ground clearance. Pete Antunac is running a rear steer IRS. All pretty cool and progressive in their own way.

Pics later I guess??
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Old 02-18-2017, 08:49 AM   #144 (permalink)
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Here are a few pictures of the ifs chassis Haines helped with.
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Old 02-18-2017, 01:24 PM   #145 (permalink)
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[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 02-18-2017, 03:59 PM   #146 (permalink)
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It's like that combines the best things about a TTB with the best things about A-arms.
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Old 02-19-2017, 12:00 PM   #147 (permalink)
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What a great set of pictures. Joe and Travis should be honored.

Actually, without seeing the rear in person it is hard to tell how it works and articulates.

The bottom "arm" articulates thru the Center of the inside series 30 size RCV CV. The line continues to just behind the seats where the front of the "arm" is bushed. I believe both bottom arms are parallel and spaced according to the Centers of the center double RCV(s)

The bottom outside hinges in the arm/upright also go through the RCV. This eliminates shaft plunge and suspension binding. I believe Joe said all axle parts are 40 spline on Facebook. The bottom arm and upright would follow the path dictated by the inside arm bushings (caster/toe-in gain and static could be manipulated)

The top arm then provides the Camber control as normal to most IRS. (It is nowhere near a TTB set-up)

Joe had to point out to me that the "trailing arm" does nothing except provide spring and shock control with good motion ratio that they are used to. You will see the solid heim at the upright and the shackle on the frame end. That solid heim threaded shank is totally in shear (But 1/2" shock bolts seem to survive). We will see how that works out. The bushing bolts and etc. are HUGE!

Writing this out helped me to understand "completely." Hopefully it will help others. Pretty neat, and several more options to explore in the future.

The design, especially with a true IRS center, is very skid friendly. The ground clearance is probably comparable to a portal.

Right now, I can't post links or pictures (Pirate??) but the accel drive in the rear is very different...pushing the car forward without squat or excessively lifting the front. No video yet on braking. Cheers Joe and UFO. I hope this meets your thinking...

The "unknown" effect is the offset differential and driveshaft torque. That torque can also be transferred to the other side by the sway bar. That might be the anti-squat.??
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Old 02-19-2017, 01:09 PM   #148 (permalink)
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The top arm then provides the Camber control as normal to most IRS. (It is nowhere near a TTB set-up)
It sticks the diff on one of the arms to free up space in the center allowing much longer arms than a center mounted diff would allow (before running into slip shaft travel and/or operating angle problems). The only other thing that does that is the TTB. Torque is controlled via a "radius arm like" set of links and he uses an additional link to control camber.

Looks pretty "TTB like" to me. He basically addresses the big shortcomings by trading packaging and arm length. Since he addresses camber the arm length tradeoff doesn't matter much and since he's building for a tube frame packaging is also solved. If there was a CV that could handle it there's no reason that design couldn't have both the beams pivot about the same line on the frame side.


I really wanna know how those knuckle pivots hold up long term.

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Old 02-23-2017, 12:18 PM   #149 (permalink)
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KOH IFS results

Some KOH and recent Notes:

KOH 2017 4400 IFS Results

A total of 33 IFS Rigs Started in 4400 class of 121 Total Starters
A total of 50 Rigs (15 IFS) finished of the 121 Total Starters.

Finishing Results:
4 IFS / Top 5 Finishers
8 / Top 10
10 / Top 15
12 / Top 20
15 Finishers out of the 33 IFS started.

Qualifying Results:
4 / Top 5
8 / Top 10
12 / Top 15
15 / Top 20
22 / Top 30

• Did not count Vaughn Gettin Jr.?? Numbers as I count them…Not official.
• Maybe more info as “The List” gets updated
• Pretty good odds to be in the top 5 and even 20 with IFS.
• It takes a Driver, Team, and a Rig.
Thanks to ALL KOH and Ultra4 Sponsors, Organizers, Volunteers!

***********************#############*************
From UFO Fabrication Post

https://www.facebook.com/joey.thomps...1727533970178/

So which can have a better roll center? IFS or SA?
Which might be more important? Roll center or CG?
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Old 02-24-2017, 09:17 PM   #150 (permalink)
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In the end/front view, the resultant of lateral forces in the suspension arms pass through the roll centre.

In the side view, the resultant of longitudinal forces in the suspension arms pass through the instant center.

The height and distance from the tyre/axle, to the roll/instant centre determines the magnitude of the jacking force, relative to the lateral/longitudinal force.

In the side view we get hung-up on anti-squat/dive, which is the ratio of the load transfer during acceleration to the jacking force, but for some reason I don't understand ignore the other affects of the jacking forces on traction.

The implications from roll centre relate to lateral forces, and similarly side view instant centre relate to longitudinal forces.

An important difference, when comparing the resultant forces in the suspension arms, and the jacking forces, is that, with independent suspension, torque reactions are transferred into the chassis by the differential mount and not through the suspension arms (excluding braking torque, which does go through the suspension arms when brakes are outboard).

Then when you take out the torque reaction, the jacking force is much less for independent suspension, equivalent effect to lowering the instant centre for a solid axle.
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