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Old 05-07-2015, 01:00 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Braking = foot & knee pain

braking my race buggy is killing me, I have to fix this but don't know where to start.

After a day trail riding my knee hurts bad and it lasts 2-3 days, the truck ride homes are rough.

After completing one lap last weekend (9 miles of racing) my foot is all screwed up. It hurts, like tendon and muscle pain. It was hard to push my tow rig clutch in the next day.

12" pedal
Wilwood High-Performance Disc Brakes - Pedal No: 340-1287



Dual 7/8 masters
Wilwood High-Performance Disc Brakes - MasterCylinder No: 260-6765


The buggy stops fine its just very hard to push. Front are dual piston ford dana 60 calipers, rear calipers are 3/4 chevy.





Any way to make this easier to brake? Is this an ergonomics issue with my set up?
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Old 05-07-2015, 01:09 PM   #2 (permalink)
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How stiff is the pedal? If it's plenty stiff right now, you can step to one/both smaller master cylinders. Softer pedal, more PSI. What about getting a vacuum or hydraulic booster?
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Old 05-07-2015, 01:30 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Smaller MCs or a larger pedal ratio. I run dual 7/8ths with 3/4 calipers, but with the CNC 8.7:1 pedal. I would call it a spongy pedal, but the brakes work well and without fatigue.
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Old 05-07-2015, 01:34 PM   #4 (permalink)
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an 8:1 ratio would be easier to push?

Or would changing to a 3/4 bore be a better starting point?
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Old 05-07-2015, 01:40 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I've been through this but my solution was not to screw with the pedal. It was the angle of the seat and distance to the pedals that caused the pain.

My foot was at a weird angle due to being too close to the pedals and my foot would start to hurt, then within an hour my leg would be killing me.

Not saying it will solve the issue, as stiffness may be the problem. But its another factor in the equation.
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Old 05-07-2015, 01:45 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Yes. You're gaining a mechanical advantage over the masters with the larger ratio pedal and a hydraulic advantage over the calipers with the smaller bore masters. Each is going to net you a softer pedal with a longer travel for any given braking force. The masters are going to be cheaper and won't require any configuration change. I'd order up a couple 3/4s, replace the front and see if you like it. You can judge if you like that direction from there.
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Old 05-07-2015, 01:55 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AgitatedPancake View Post
How stiff is the pedal? If it's plenty stiff right now, you can step to one/both smaller master cylinders. Softer pedal, more PSI. What about getting a vacuum or hydraulic booster?
I get full pedal movement, it will go down a long ways when pressed. Its hard to push throughout the full range.
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Old 05-07-2015, 02:12 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I've been through this but my solution was not to screw with the pedal. It was the angle of the seat and distance to the pedals that caused the pain.

My foot was at a weird angle due to being too close to the pedals and my foot would start to hurt, then within an hour my leg would be killing me.

Not saying it will solve the issue, as stiffness may be the problem. But its another factor in the equation.
due to the knee joint and foot joint pain, this was actually what I suspected. the brake is much closer to me, and higher than the gas.

The brake is slightly depressed in this picture BUT it will go almost to the floor, I need to be cautious how and where I move it.

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Old 05-07-2015, 02:19 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I think the guy in post 5 is more on the right track then... Judging by your pics you're pushing considerably down and forward. My seat to pedal configuration is more along the lines of a sports car where I mostly just push forward. I've got years worth of motocross damage to my knees as well and it's not an issue.

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Old 05-07-2015, 02:45 PM   #10 (permalink)
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That's more or less how mine was. I was able to get the pedal pain to stop by changing my seat position so I wasn't pushing down and forward. I found that as the brake depressed my ankle would make a weird move. The brake pedal also wasn't in line with my leg. My theory is that doesn't help either.

By trying to make it more like CrushinAZ's sports car position it got much better.
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Old 05-07-2015, 09:18 PM   #11 (permalink)
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fix the geometry but how about some aleeve twice daily for a day before and a few days after the ride?
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Old 05-07-2015, 09:59 PM   #12 (permalink)
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..........white people problems.
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Old 05-08-2015, 12:41 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Have you looked into going hydroboost? Some of the setups are fairly large but could help with the amount of pedal pressure needed
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Old 05-08-2015, 06:11 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I'm just guessing here no expert but is just your knee moving when you step on the pedal or is your whole leg, I would think you would want to push with your thigh muscles as if you are standing.

Can you just tilt the master or adjust the pedal way out so you are pushing in more of a downward motion, since you sit so high, so you are more like standing on the pedal using your thigh muscles not just your knee.
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Old 05-08-2015, 07:16 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Smaller M/Cs will give you a much easier pedal but it will feel spongy but you'll likely stop easier. Here's a thread I started with good info

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gener...ed-better.html

I had 1" MCs with a 7:1 pedal ratio. Dropped to 3/4" MCs and it was a night and day difference.

You may just be a huge vag and if that's the case you'll never be happy without a true hydroboost setup

Hydroboost Brake Assembly :: Wide Open Design
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Old 05-08-2015, 07:46 AM   #16 (permalink)
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fix the geometry but how about some aleeve twice daily for a day before and a few days after the ride?
I'd prefer a properly set up brake over taking pills...WTF? was that a real suggestion?
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Old 05-08-2015, 08:19 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Smaller M/Cs will give you a much easier pedal but it will feel spongy but you'll likely stop easier. Here's a thread I started with good info

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gener...ed-better.html

I had 1" MCs with a 7:1 pedal ratio. Dropped to 3/4" MCs and it was a night and day difference.

You may just be a huge vag and if that's the case you'll never be happy without a true hydroboost setup

Hydroboost Brake Assembly :: Wide Open Design
You problem was a hard brake that barely moves. I've got a pretty long range of motion on mine. I wouldn't want to make it any longer at all. Would a 3/4 make my travel longer?

maybe I'm just a vag
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Old 05-08-2015, 09:37 AM   #18 (permalink)
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You problem was a hard brake that barely moves. I've got a pretty long range of motion on mine. I wouldn't want to make it any longer at all. Would a 3/4 make my travel longer?

maybe I'm just a vag
It's possible although it can only travel so far regardless of your master size. I would drop to 3/4 masters. You can always adjust the throw.
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Old 05-08-2015, 09:57 AM   #19 (permalink)
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You will get more travel going to 3/4. No way around it and you said the pedal already nearly goes to the floor. The thing that MIGHT help is that the hard part of the travel will be further away from you which would mean your leg would be straighter at the point you're standing on the pedal hard... Add the additional braking force and you might have an acceptable work around to your problem even if you have to relieve the floor a bit. As I said before, you can always swap a 3/4 into the front and reevaluate from there.
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Old 05-08-2015, 03:47 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I would look more at your seating position than pedal components. Looks like your legs and ankles are bent a lot with your feet on the pedal. I know it's not the easiest solution, but try moving the front of the seat up to support your legs, or move the seat back so your legs are straighter.
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Old 05-08-2015, 03:59 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I'm going with pedal position as well. I glanced at your picture before reading your description and instantly though OUCH. The angle of your ankle looks terrible.
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Old 05-11-2015, 06:25 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Do you ware heavy steel towed boots while driving? lighter shoes will be less safe but can help with fatigue. If pedal throw is maxed out keep the MC you have and adjust mounting position and angles.
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Old 05-12-2015, 06:54 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Do you ware heavy steel towed boots while driving? lighter shoes will be less safe but can help with fatigue. If pedal throw is maxed out keep the MC you have and adjust mounting position and angles.
That was an early build pic I found, the seat the pedal were mounted, so that angle remains the same. I wear Sparco fire resistance racing shoes, they are pretty light. I do where boots trail riding but the pain is similar with either.
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Old 05-12-2015, 07:00 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I will be taking measurements in both my truck and my car. angles, distances, etc. It should give me a good range as one is a 2500 ram and the other is a WRX. I am hoping I can use those measurements and angles as a max/min then adjust things till I fall within those numbers. If I don't have the room, I'll just get as close as I can to them.

A floor mounted pedal might be needed to make it happen. I'll make some changes and update the thread.



Edit - I just had a thought. These general angles and distances have to already been studied and documented. Any thoughts on where one could find them? Maybe the info can help others to not repeat my mistake.
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Old 05-12-2015, 11:19 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Hope this helps. Here's mine.

Floor to top seat edge - 8.5"
Floor to center of pedal - 7.5"
Seat edge to pedal at rest - 21"
Seat edge to pedal standing on the brakes hard - 27"

I'm 6'2 and I like it.
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