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Old 10-04-2015, 08:15 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Ultra4 4500 Class Steering

Keep hearing about a steering set up that uses a double ended hydraulic ram as a tie-rod, sweet servo and not sure what else to meet the rule requirements of having mechanical steering but elimate the box? Any help would be appreciated and yes I searched but couldn't find it. Thanks
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Old 10-04-2015, 08:45 PM   #2 (permalink)
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https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gener...ce-rig-13.html

This page marks the beginning of the end of 3 broken boxes and conventional T steering.
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Old 10-04-2015, 09:18 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Thank you
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Old 10-04-2015, 09:48 PM   #4 (permalink)
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PSC is packaging it up now. Tribe 4x4 is going to be installing one of the first full setups and Jimmy's is putting a couple more on two of their production 4500 rigs.
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Old 10-05-2015, 01:06 PM   #5 (permalink)
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PSC is packaging it up now. Tribe 4x4 is going to be installing one of the first full setups and Jimmy's is putting a couple more on two of their production 4500 rigs.
Seems to be working well for you guys. From what I understand. It's a standard full hydro ram fed by a servo. The box is replaced with a mechanical box that see's no fluid, or load. How do you compare the feel to hydro asst?
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Old 10-05-2015, 01:12 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Old 10-05-2015, 01:14 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Full season no issues. Great feedback in steeringwheel.
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Old 10-05-2015, 01:19 PM   #8 (permalink)
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PSC is packaging it up now. Tribe 4x4 is going to be installing one of the first full setups and Jimmy's is putting a couple more on two of their production 4500 rigs.
I think I am in line for this as well. I have talked with Tom in depth and it should be an easy swap out for my current set up. Something for the off season!
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Old 10-05-2015, 01:28 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Seems to be working well for you guys. From what I understand. It's a standard full hydro ram fed by a servo. The box is replaced with a mechanical box that see's no fluid, or load. How do you compare the feel to hydro asst?
Yes, exactly. It is actually just a MUCH MUCH better hydro assist. A power steering box has a servo in it. Our setup works like a power rack on the 4400 IFS cars and uses the servo, but we are using a gear box and drag link instead of the little rack. The sweet servo and 2 1/2" double ended ram gives the same power as full hydro but has the positive return to center of regular hydro assist. All we did was put a better pump servo and ram in our same steering setup.

I have been getting PM's all year about it as well as Shawn getting calls from some big names wanting our setup, to include Tom Allen with PSC and Randy Rod of Jimmy's4x4. This is what I am telling everyone.

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If you can wait just a couple of weeks I am going to start a detailed thread explaining everything. I have had people trying to get me to talk about this all year when they realized it works. Not to be rude but I wanted to keep it to ourselves for a season since we figured it out and tried it when no one else would. We have the Ultra4 national finals in two weeks and after that race I am going to spill it to every one.

Part of the reason I am going to do it that way. Is because there is a lot of stuff that fly's in the face of "what I heard" and I don't want to argue with people individually. I want to do it in public so I can argue with every one at once. Because despite the fact that it obviously works. Everyone I have talked to wants to argue with me about what they think. Including pro's like Tom Allen owner of PSC. He's trying make it a package deal (using my design as a base) but he still isn't doing it the way I did it. They have not completed one yet though so it is yet to be determined if there off the shelf set up will work like ours.
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Old 10-05-2015, 01:45 PM   #10 (permalink)
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This sounds great! Even for a street driven rig, I'm interested.
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Old 10-05-2015, 01:58 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I'm really glad it's working for you.

I've been putting off doing my steering, hoping to do something similar. I want fast steering, like 1.5 lock to lock.
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Old 10-05-2015, 02:02 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Yes, exactly. It is actually just a MUCH MUCH better hydro assist. A power steering box has a servo in it. Our setup works like a power rack on the 4400 IFS cars and uses the servo, but we are using a gear box and drag link instead of the little rack. The sweet servo and 2 1/2" double ended ram gives the same power as full hydro but has the positive return to center of regular hydro assist. All we did was put a better pump servo and ram in our same steering setup.

I have been getting PM's all year about it as well as Shawn getting calls from some big names wanting our setup, to include Tom Allen with PSC and Randy Rod of Jimmy's4x4. This is what I am telling everyone.
You guys have defiantly put the time in testing. We all know how hard you guys were on boxes. Look forward to hearing what you have to say. I'm suck with the setup I have. How has the Haines setup been working for Mitch? You driven both? You have a setup you prefer?
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Old 10-05-2015, 02:32 PM   #13 (permalink)
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You guys have defiantly put the time in testing. We all know how hard you guys were on boxes. Look forward to hearing what you have to say. I'm suck with the setup I have. How has the Haines setup been working for Mitch? You driven both? You have a setup you prefer?
Your not stuck, we could fit the same as is in Shawn's in yours, I'm almost positive of it. If you don't have box breakage problems you most likely don't need to go through the effort though. I have driven both and I like what we have in Shawn's best. Mitch's works well but is not immune to breakage. In 8 races we still had steering issues in 4 of those with 1 roll due 100% to failed steering, two broken boxes and pump and ram problems. Both rigs have 2 1/2 turn lock to lock steering. Shawn's is sooo much easier to steer at all times. Mitch's has enough drag between all the bellcranks and rod ends that the "feedback" the full hydro guys are always looking for is barely there. The JHF rig is getting steering upgrades for KOH prep starting last week. The one advantage that Mitch's still has, is the dual triangulated 4 link and no panhard bar up front. I've mentioned before that watching Shawn's car jump and land you can see the panhard make the rig squirm on landing, but you cant feel it in the rig. Mitchs doesn't do that, but it also doesn't fly flat. It always lands one front tire first and way nose heavy, it wasn't built to fly. This winter I am going to put the sweet valve setup on an old 4500 rig turned trail rig to see how much better it is for street & trail use.
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Old 10-05-2015, 04:03 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Jimmys production 4500 car? I looked for some spy pics but no luck.
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Old 10-05-2015, 04:20 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Your not stuck, we could fit the same as is in Shawn's in yours, I'm almost positive of it. If you don't have box breakage problems you most likely don't need to go through the effort though. I have driven both and I like what we have in Shawn's best. Mitch's works well but is not immune to breakage. In 8 races we still had steering issues in 4 of those with 1 roll due 100% to failed steering, two broken boxes and pump and ram problems. Both rigs have 2 1/2 turn lock to lock steering. Shawn's is sooo much easier to steer at all times. Mitch's has enough drag between all the bellcranks and rod ends that the "feedback" the full hydro guys are always looking for is barely there. The JHF rig is getting steering upgrades for KOH prep starting last week. The one advantage that Mitch's still has, is the dual triangulated 4 link and no panhard bar up front. I've mentioned before that watching Shawn's car jump and land you can see the panhard make the rig squirm on landing, but you cant feel it in the rig. Mitchs doesn't do that, but it also doesn't fly flat. It always lands one front tire first and way nose heavy, it wasn't built to fly. This winter I am going to put the sweet valve setup on an old 4500 rig turned trail rig to see how much better it is for street & trail use.
I'm curious to see the difference between what your running and what PSE is planning to sell. I'm sure I could make it work. But I was more talking about no time or money. I'm not having issues, but I'm also not racing as much as you guys. Plus my right foot seems to be a lot lighter than you guys

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Jimmys production 4500 car? I looked for some spy pics but no luck.
Jimmy's has a few of their 4500 car running around. I thing there were 2-3 at KOH this year.
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Old 10-05-2015, 04:58 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Jimmys production 4500 car? I looked for some spy pics but no luck.

We will be running bell crank on our jimmys 4500 chassis toyota
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Old 10-05-2015, 05:00 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Jimmys production 4500 car? I looked for some spy pics but no luck.
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Jimmy's has a few of their 4500 car running around. I thing there were 2-3 at KOH this year.
Duane Garretson had the first one at KOH. Paul Bickerton is having the second one built now. They have the bell crank steering like JHF builds with the steering box right in front of the drivers feet. They look similar to a spec car but with square frame rails and the mechanical steering.
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Old 10-05-2015, 07:04 PM   #18 (permalink)
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We have talked to Tom about the new steering setup they have come up with a it seems like a winner. The new 4500 car we are building is getting a double ended ram servo setup with a manual box on a bell crank. I've contemplated everything from the trophy rack setup to a conventional 3 link with drag link and I think the benefits of a 4 link setup with the bell crank is worth the extra effort. Only
Time will for us whether it was the way to go. With the double ended ram it should take all the load off the box and bell crank.
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Old 10-05-2015, 07:54 PM   #19 (permalink)
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My main question comes about the box can you just fill it with fluid and loop the ports on it to keep it lubed or is more needed. I don't want to run a manual box for the fact they have such a high ratio.
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:36 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Jimmys production 4500 car? I looked for some spy pics but no luck.
Saw a few on face space
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:50 PM   #21 (permalink)
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We have talked to Tom about the new steering setup they have come up with a it seems like a winner. The new 4500 car we are building is getting a double ended ram servo setup with a manual box on a bell crank. I've contemplated everything from the trophy rack setup to a conventional 3 link with drag link and I think the benefits of a 4 link setup with the bell crank is worth the extra effort. Only
Time will for us whether it was the way to go. With the double ended ram it should take all the load off the box and bell crank.

seems like the best of both worlds.
excited to hear about how these new set ups work
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Old 10-06-2015, 01:18 PM   #22 (permalink)
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It looks like everyone is working with different applications now, but it all comes down to the three basic parts. The ram, servo, and a mechanical linkage.
There are a lot of ways to make it work.
The ram needs to take the force from the tires. Most rams can handle the force and since the linkage/tie rods are mostly inline on the axle they handle it as well. Hard tire hits build pressure because oil valves are closed and pressure builds in the ram and servo. This is also how "full hydraulic" systems work. A standard full hydraulic dual ended cylinder is ideal for this.

Boxes fail when trying to handle high shock loads as they are not inline and weaker due to linkage and offset forces and they can not move fast enough due to the oil restriction inside of them. They are nearing the point of hydraulically locking because the oil can't move fast enough through them. Once the resistance force of trying to move the oil reaches the breaking strength of the box they let go.

The servo such as a "Sweet" servo relies on a torsional twist of a spring to open flow ports. The twist is between the input shaft/steering wheel and the output shaft on the servo yet the two can freely spin together forever. In a box the servo is inside the box and the output shaft is connected to the mechanical gear. In a full hydraulic system the servo is in the orbital and uses a form of a pump/motor to provide feedback to twist against. Nice thing about servos is that you can order them with the spring resistance you want. More resistance gives you feel of the tires and less oil flow so the human is putting in more power. At high speed the human can put in almost all the force and the valves never open. A soft spring will allow minimal human force to open the valves and let the oil do the work, but in doing so the feedback is lost in the soft spring twisting.

The mechanical gear can be anything you want to time the tire to the servo. It's only function is to handle the max steering force a human can put into the system to twist the servo. 2.5 turns lock to lock is an average number for the ratio of steering wheel to tire movement. The more efficient the mechanical linkage the higher the quality of feedback to the wheel. It does not need to be overly strong like a manual steering box or a gutted power steering box. It does need to be low backlash to minimize wasted movement. The linkage can match the strength of the human putting in the force. The mechanical gear can be a rack, a right angle box, an inline box or a timed belt or chain device.
Conservation of energy is key to the mechanical linkage for feedback. Building to the required human input force will help keep the losses down.
In my mind an inline planetary gear would be a good ratio changer/ gear box and keep the angle changes upstream in the higher 2.5x ratio.

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Old 10-07-2015, 06:59 PM   #23 (permalink)
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What is the diffrence in the sweet servo from a Saginaw servo that's installed in the box?
Is the sweet one just a cast housing around the Saginaw valve?
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Old 10-07-2015, 09:18 PM   #24 (permalink)
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What is the diffrence in the sweet servo from a Saginaw servo that's installed in the box?
Is the sweet one just a cast housing around the Saginaw valve?
The sweet servo's have much larger ports and much lighter torsion springs. The sweet valve flows more volume of oil to the ram than the Saginaw one is capable of. That's why the sweet valve exists. There is nothing that can be done to a complete Saginaw box to divert enough volume of fluid to the ram to take the impact load off of the mechanical part of the gear box.
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Old 10-07-2015, 09:34 PM   #25 (permalink)
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So there's more magic than just putting a sweet servo inline with a regular box (minus PS lines or manual box) and using a double ended ram for a tie rod right? I'd rather just do this setup from day 1* instead of doing assist and incremental changes. I should bug Sweet since they're sort of local but I'm thinking they might look at me cross-eyed with this application.

*New setup with an 05+ HP D60 and 40's under a "tj". Trail, not race
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