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Old 07-31-2017, 11:56 AM   #301 (permalink)
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I didn't design this system my son John did and can say that in 3 complete race seasons and a bit of play wheeling after installing this system we have failed not one part and have only replaced a couple of fan belts (same pump/servo/ram and hoses) the pump volume matches the ram perfectly. We do run a pressure relief that I think is crucial to the life of the whole system. This is the best steering system with the best feel I have ever driven. John did his research and made a great package for us.
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Old 07-31-2017, 05:26 PM   #302 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtxracer View Post
Yes, too much pump can be very bad. Dookey had similar issues when his ram wasn't big enough for the pump PSC gave him.



Where is the valve located? I opened up the input bushing ID to match the new ID of the box. If you're talking about the small check valve on the return line of the box, then no, I haven't. I am not sure the AGR box has one of those, perhaps I should remove it.
I am not that familiar with the box your using, but trying to determine the main difference between your process and below.


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The steering works and its powerful, buts its slow. My lock to lock is 2 3/4 turn but the servo in the box restricts flow, even though it's ported. The fittings in and out of the box are -6 an which have 1/4" ID ports. The sweet servo I spec'd out in my original post have -8 ports which are 5/16". The real restriction is the inlet to the steering box because you cant port the check valve that sits right below the HP feed.


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Old 07-04-2018, 08:59 AM   #303 (permalink)
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Just wanted to thank everyone for sharing all the knowledge. I just got my steering done and it works awesome. Its on a toyota, 3 linked with a toy axle. I used a .200 sweet servo, an ifs steering box made manual(welded torsion bar, cut grooves in piston and capped inlet and return) an a tc jeep pump modded for more flow and pressure feeding a TG 6" double ended ram. I made the pitman arm longer to get 2.5 ish turns lock to lock. On my first test it turned great until I turned the steering wheel too fast (jerking back and forth) it would get stiff. So I drilled out the restrictor in the outlet of the pump to 5/32 and tightened the nut on the piston all the way. Second test was perfect, zero lag.

Thanks again for sharing! I just wanted to show how this setup could be used on just about anything with random parts and work.
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Old 07-04-2018, 05:37 PM   #304 (permalink)
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So I guess I spoke too soon maybe I can get some insight. This was working perfect and then just start pulsing/shaking the tires back and forth while steering. Its not consistent so I may get a few turns in that are smooth then it will shake then smooth etc. Still air in the system? Is the .200 too light? Im frustrated to say the least.

Edit to add that it wont shake without the wheels on. Then wheels on but off the ground shakes a little, wheels on the ground and it shakes like its going to break something. Plenty of power. Im thinking maybe the flow mod on the pump was unnecessary. Ill try to find another stock high pressure fitting and try that again.

Last edited by sherm$; 07-04-2018 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 07-04-2018, 06:02 PM   #305 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by muddnutt View Post
I didn't design this system my son John did and can say that in 3 complete race seasons and a bit of play wheeling after installing this system we have failed not one part and have only replaced a couple of fan belts (same pump/servo/ram and hoses) the pump volume matches the ram perfectly. We do run a pressure relief that I think is crucial to the life of the whole system. This is the best steering system with the best feel I have ever driven. John did his research and made a great package for us.
what type of bypass do you run i don't recall seeing that mentioned in the original post?
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Old 07-04-2018, 08:30 PM   #306 (permalink)
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So I guess I spoke too soon maybe I can get some insight. This was working perfect and then just start pulsing/shaking the tires back and forth while steering. Its not consistent so I may get a few turns in that are smooth then it will shake then smooth etc. Still air in the system? Is the .200 too light? Im frustrated to say the least.

Edit to add that it wont shake without the wheels on. Then wheels on but off the ground shakes a little, wheels on the ground and it shakes like its going to break something. Plenty of power. Im thinking maybe the flow mod on the pump was unnecessary. Ill try to find another stock high pressure fitting and try that again.
Did Howe modify your sweet servo or is it off the shelf? When I disabled the piston in my AGR box, it would shake slightly. Itís from the small movement in the steering shaft and giving the servo small inputs and the servo is trying to react quickly. Placing some drag or friction in the steering wheel motion would help.
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Old 07-04-2018, 08:56 PM   #307 (permalink)
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Did Howe modify your sweet servo or is it off the shelf? When I disabled the piston in my AGR box, it would shake slightly. Itís from the small movement in the steering shaft and giving the servo small inputs and the servo is trying to react quickly. Placing some drag or friction in the steering wheel motion would help.
The servo is off the shelf. So it sounds like I shouldn't have made the piston in the box so free flowing? Do you think slowing the flow of the pump by putting a stock restrictor back in will help? I cranked the endplay adjuster in on the top of the steering box and it helped a little but not much.
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Old 07-05-2018, 12:48 AM   #308 (permalink)
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The servo is off the shelf. So it sounds like I shouldn't have made the piston in the box so free flowing? Do you think slowing the flow of the pump by putting a stock restrictor back in will help? I cranked the endplay adjuster in on the top of the steering box and it helped a little but not much.
Well firstly Iíd recommend adjusting the set screw on the top of the box to be just enough backlash to minimize excess shaft play. Maximizing the travel is actually bad for the longevity of the box and could cause issues for you.

I donít see why the bored out fitting would hurt. I think you still have some input from slop in the steering shaft and joints.
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Old 07-05-2018, 06:58 AM   #309 (permalink)
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Well firstly I’d recommend adjusting the set screw on the top of the box to be just enough backlash to minimize excess shaft play. Maximizing the travel is actually bad for the longevity of the box and could cause issues for you.

I don’t see why the bored out fitting would hurt. I think you still have some input from slop in the steering shaft and joints.
Yep I adjusted it in as far as I could get it, so back it off a little. I had a thought last night that possibly my weld on the torsion bar popped. That would explain what's happening and it was a super small tig weld. Ill pull the valve out of the steering box tonight and hopefully that's what it is

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Old 07-05-2018, 07:40 PM   #310 (permalink)
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Weld was good. Maybe the box is worn out. I'm lost from here. Maybe change out the tie rod ends for heims? They feel tight buy maybe not tight enough?
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Old 07-05-2018, 09:13 PM   #311 (permalink)
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My system is getting close and this "shaking" issue a few have had concerns me. EVERYTHING in my system is new; valve from howe, borgeson manual gear, psc pump and tg ram, all emf tre's and ball sockets. I already have too much time vested in this; if it shakes, i'm putting an orbital in
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:47 PM   #312 (permalink)
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My system is getting close and this "shaking" issue a few have had concerns me. EVERYTHING in my system is new; valve from howe, borgeson manual gear, psc pump and tg ram, all emf tre's and ball sockets. I already have too much time vested in this; if it shakes, i'm putting an orbital in
That's where I'm at if I can't fix it with what I have. is there discussion elsewhere about the shaking?

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Old 07-06-2018, 06:20 AM   #313 (permalink)
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I hadn't seen this was bumped up and going again.

Here is the bypass valve. It goes in the high pressure line between the pump outlet and servo inlet. https://www.kartek.com/parts/howe-ex...-fittings.html

I have not yet heard of the shaking issue with a 200 torsion spring in the servo before now. You're also the first one I know of to do this with a toyota box, box shouldn't matter but lets talk about what you got. Do you have a panhard front susp setup?
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Old 07-06-2018, 06:22 AM   #314 (permalink)
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That's where I'm at if I can't fix it with what I have. is there discussion elsewhere about the shaking?
The only people I know of that had the shaking talked about it on face book. I'm helping Duane Garretson put the sweet servo setup on his jimmy's 4500 car with the bell crank setup, like what Tom Moore's toyota had.
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Old 07-06-2018, 06:58 AM   #315 (permalink)
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I am busy troubleshooting a shaking issue too.
Sweet/Howe .210 servo, manual box, 2.5 ram. Uses the Howe t pump, pressure relief valve, and filter/resi.
It worked pretty good for the previous owner, with smaller Tc based pump, driven 1:1 with the crank, and an .185 servo. Now with ls, over driven with 6.5 pump pulley, Howe t pump it shakes turning, slowly, and moderate speed. If you turn as fast as your hands move itís okay. Tires in the air itís ok. It shakes, spikes psi so much it loosens all the steering fittings. Not my buggy, just helping out a friend.
Seems like the ram needs around 5.3 gpm to go lock to lock 1.5 seconds. Thatís as fast as I can move it. T pump puts out ~6 gpm at ilde? Up to 15 at rpm, is it too much flow?
Thinking it needs less flow, or bigger torsion rod in servo.

My own rig, trail biuld, uses Tc pump, disabled Toyota fj60 box, using the servo in the box, heavily ported everything. Trail gear 2.25/1.25 double ended ram. Driven by belllcrank to the four link front end. I have had it cycling on stands, but no real results yet
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Old 07-06-2018, 07:19 AM   #316 (permalink)
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I hadn't seen this was bumped up and going again.

Here is the bypass valve. It goes in the high pressure line between the pump outlet and servo inlet. https://www.kartek.com/parts/howe-ex...-fittings.html

I have not yet heard of the shaking issue with a 200 torsion spring in the servo before now. You're also the first one I know of to do this with a toyota box, box shouldn't matter but lets talk about what you got. Do you have a panhard front susp setup?
Yes 3 link with a panhard. Im thinking it may be too much flow pushing the ram too fast and bouncing off the other side of the torsion bar. I took the box apart last night to check my weld on the toyota torsion and it was fine. In going to try tightening the collar that holds it all together to add a little drag in the box and fill it with heavy gear oil to further the damping. If that doesn't work ill put a stock high pressure fitting in the pump with the 1/8 hole since I drilled the one in it now to 5/32.

Can air cause this issue? I've bled it a million times but know how that goes.
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Old 07-06-2018, 07:22 AM   #317 (permalink)
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Thinking it needs less flow, or bigger torsion rod in servo.
Possibly both? I have helped solve the shaking issue on a few rigs. Always had them bump the torsion size up till it quit shaking. On ours I run the 4.5 GPM TC pumps and have never had a shake issue.
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Old 07-06-2018, 07:38 AM   #318 (permalink)
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Possibly both? I have helped solve the shaking issue on a few rigs. Always had them bump the torsion size up till it quit shaking. On ours I run the 4.5 GPM TC pumps and have never had a shake issue.
I think that's where my system is a bit different being I use a TG 2x6 ram limited to about 4.5 inches of travel since the 6 shooter arms are so short. Also I lengthened the pitman to get 2.75 turns lock to lock.
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Old 07-06-2018, 07:52 AM   #319 (permalink)
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Can air cause this issue? I've bled it a million times but know how that goes.

I think that's where my system is a bit different being I use a TG 2x6 ram limited to about 4.5 inches of travel since the 6 shooter arms are so short. Also I lengthened the pitman to get 2.75 turns lock to lock.
I don't know how you could still have air in the system but if you have a setup issue with a high spot that makes it impossible to get air out I guess its possible.

The sweet valve can flow so much fluid it can definitely outrun the torsion bar and not work smoothly. I helped a guy put a sweet valve ram assist on a manual steering unimog. I believe it needed a 220 torsion to work right, started out with the 185 torsion and it was so sensitive you couldn't go 20 mph with it.
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Old 07-06-2018, 08:01 AM   #320 (permalink)
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You guys that are having problems have all deviated from the original parts list. Keep in mind I sized everything to work together. Pump GPM and ram displacement are the two most important factors and you NEED to know those two numbers. IMO the number one factor in most steering setups that don't work are from to big & bad of a pump. IMO anything more than 5 gpm for a 2 1/2" ram is not only a waste but creates a variable problem with run time, that will come and go as you turn it off cool down and start over.

With a 2" ram you will want even less GPM to not be to twitchy. The sweet valve will flow an insane amount of volume and is not a regulator. The relief valve won't help that at all either, it only kicks in if you strike something at speed, or when you steer all the way to the steer stops and stall the servo that would cause a pressure spike.
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Old 07-06-2018, 08:26 AM   #321 (permalink)
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You guys that are having problems have all deviated from the original parts list.
I understand. This is what I get for doing race car shit on a toyota budget. Lol

I talked to sweet about a bigger torsion spring and they said i need a whole new spool valve with parts and labor will cost more than buying another new one. Am I missing something? Is it possible to just change the torsion rod and the guy at sweet was not understanding me?
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Old 07-06-2018, 10:13 AM   #322 (permalink)
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Possibly both? I have helped solve the shaking issue on a few rigs. Always had them bump the torsion size up till it quit shaking. On ours I run the 4.5 GPM TC pumps and have never had a shake issue.
This one that Fred was talking about is Toms old car , we have tried a few different things with it , talked allot with psc and howe and we still havent gotten it to where it needs to be ...
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Old 07-06-2018, 10:16 AM   #323 (permalink)
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Itís not that itís race car stuff. The same rule still applies, each part needs to be proportional to each other. You just have one or the other not sized right, ram is small or pump is big.

And I think heís full of crap. On the unimog retrofit the same servo was sent back twice and had only the torsion changed. Started out at 185, ended up at 220 after trying 200. Weíve got another servo in right now having just the torsion changed from 185 to 210.
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Old 07-06-2018, 10:29 AM   #324 (permalink)
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This one that Fred was talking about is Toms old car , we have tried a few different things with it , talked allot with psc and howe and we still havent gotten it to where it needs to be ...
We worked with Randy to make that steering work and Iím the one that stands by the 4.5 gpm 1600 psi TC pump. The first incarnations that went on those 3 cars, Mooreís, Garretsons, Bickerton didnít work. They shook and fluttered the wheels like crazy. We talked them into going to the TC pump and the heavier torsion which cured it. Thereís no doubt that when Marty was driving it that it worked flawlessly. If the only thing thatís different now is the pump thatís the first and probably only thing that I would change up. I know itís hard to slow the pump down with that giant LS crank pulley but you should be able to reel it in some how.
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Old 07-06-2018, 10:50 AM   #325 (permalink)
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Possibly both? I have helped solve the shaking issue on a few rigs. Always had them bump the torsion size up till it quit shaking. On ours I run the 4.5 GPM TC pumps and have never had a shake issue.
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We worked with Randy to make that steering work and Iím the one that stands by the 4.5 gpm 1600 psi TC pump. The first incarnations that went on those 3 cars, Mooreís, Garretsons, Bickerton didnít work. They shook and fluttered the wheels like crazy. We talked them into going to the TC pump and the heavier torsion which cured it. Thereís no doubt that when Marty was driving it that it worked flawlessly. If the only thing thatís different now is the pump thatís the first and probably only thing that I would change up. I know itís hard to slow the pump down with that giant LS crank pulley but you should be able to reel it in some how.
yea we had the full set up he had , we changed the pulley on the pump to a 5.5 it was real bad , changed the valve from a I believe 175 to a 210 made no difference really , I also had a complete setup from howe that I was to use in the new car before purchasing Tom's , so we through that Howe pump which had a larger pulley 6.5 , external check valve etc it is slightly better but harsh tire shake pretty much 20-30 miles it will literally loosen off my steering lines causing them to leak was a good fail at Koh this year dealing with it .... we pulled our hair out trying to sort this out but gave up with running out of time and have since started trying to sort it out again but havent gotten very far as of yet ...
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