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Old 07-10-2018, 06:37 PM   #351 (permalink)
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Thanks ScottM. We make sure the ram and steering stops on the knuckle stop at the same time. With the setup on the Willyís/Bronco we use the full 8 inch stroke of the ram and adjusted the knuckle steer stops to stop when the ram does. The steering box still has travel left in both directions so that it never gets stressed on. Weíre running a 12:1 ratio box because 16:1 sucks for racing a 4x4 truck.

You may be able to get along with a steering quickener in an IFS 4x2 but all the 4x4 rigs Iíve seen with the quickners had some pretty bad quirks and the steering is noticeably harder to steer. I used to race in a straight front axle car with a 1.2:1 quickener and it was eventually removed because it sucked, and the steering feel was substantially better without it. Less effort from your hands to steer and way less road wandering. If you read the last two pages youíll see why you canít just increase the sensitivity of the servo to make up for the increased drag of a quickener. Already been down that road with Jimmys4x4 on their production 4500 class cars. Iím not saying you canít make a quickener work. I am saying Iíve not yet seen it done with the desired results.
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Old 07-14-2018, 10:12 PM   #352 (permalink)
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I got my torsion spring swapped to the .220 today. Still shakes. Put the stock restrictor in the pump and it shakes exactly the same but stiffer steering. I'm not sure I want to waste the time on the .235 . the whole idea was easier steering than stock power steering. The .220 with stock restrictor is bordering on worse than stock. I'm not quite sure where to go from here.
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Old 07-16-2018, 05:44 AM   #353 (permalink)
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Before you give up letís revisit all your major components please?

Toyota IFS box?
What series pump?
How many stroke by what piston diameter ram?
Single ended or double ended?

If I give you my phone number would you want to call and answer some questions? This can be made to work. I can put a steering wheel or two in your hands that you can whip back and forth with the vehicle at a dead stop with a terrible scrub radius and the front locker locked. Both of the vehicles Iíve done this to work with 200 pound springs and no shaking. I just committed this weekend to help Campbell enterprises put this setup on a turn key 4500 car for some one. Iím pretty confident we can sort this out, Iíd really like to see you make it work actually.
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Old 07-16-2018, 06:52 AM   #354 (permalink)
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Before you give up letís revisit all your major components please?

Toyota IFS box?
What series pump?
How many stroke by what piston diameter ram?
Single ended or double ended?

If I give you my phone number would you want to call and answer some questions? This can be made to work. I can put a steering wheel or two in your hands that you can whip back and forth with the vehicle at a dead stop with a terrible scrub radius and the front locker locked. Both of the vehicles Iíve done this to work with 200 pound springs and no shaking. I just committed this weekend to help Campbell enterprises put this setup on a turn key 4500 car for some one. Iím pretty confident we can sort this out, Iíd really like to see you make it work actually.
Ifs box
Tc pump
Double end 2.25 ram with 1.125 rod going lock to lock (limited to 4.5 inches) in 3.25 turns

Is be stoked to get it to work, my plan today was to start looking for a suitable orbital valve instead of tearing all this apart again. I don't think Ill be happy with .235 so that's a waste of time. Pm me your number and Id be happy to call and try to figure this out
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Old 07-17-2018, 06:20 AM   #355 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sherm$ View Post
Ifs box
Tc pump
Double end 2.25 ram with 1.125 rod going lock to lock (limited to 4.5 inches) in 3.25 turns

Is be stoked to get it to work, my plan today was to start looking for a suitable orbital valve instead of tearing all this apart again. I don't think Ill be happy with .235 so that's a waste of time. Pm me your number and Id be happy to call and try to figure this out
Curious, as I have no idea if it matters.... but what is your castor set at? Also is you steering box centered, and what is your toe set at?
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Last edited by paradisePWoffrd; 07-17-2018 at 11:01 AM. Reason: castor is what i meant, not camber.
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Old 07-17-2018, 08:00 AM   #356 (permalink)
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Curious, as I have no idea if it matters.... but what is your Camber set at? Also is you box centered, and what is your toe set at?
The box is centered if you are talking about the steering box. The Castor(assuming that's what you mean) is 6 to 7 ish the toe is 1/16ish. I don't think any of it matters much sitting in the driveway.

I talked to Jon last night and he gave me a couple things to try and it didn't help. I'm almost positive is play in the steering box since that's the only place there's play. I can watch it. There's no telling how many 100s of thousands of miles were on this box before I beat on it for years before trying this .

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Old 07-17-2018, 09:55 AM   #357 (permalink)
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I have a .275 servo and 2.75 turn box I’ll be using soon but could send the servo to you to swap the torsion spring if you want. I’m trying a disabled box first before I go to the servo. Just want to prove my theory then I’ll swap t in anyway for the speed and power.
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:52 AM   #358 (permalink)
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I'm out. Jon I really appreciate your effort. My conclusion is too much play in the ifs box. Tightening the trunions didn't change anything other than bringing back the shake with the tires off the ground. I ordered an orbital that will give me 2.5 turns lock to lock for less than a new ifs box that may or may not have resolved the shake and I just want to go wheeling.

Again thanks to everyone who tried to help me with this.

Ill have a for sale ad with all the Sweet goodies I've collected up soon, someone will get a hell of a deal.
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Old 07-20-2018, 02:30 PM   #359 (permalink)
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Worked on the problem today.
Installed Tc 4.5 gpm pump (vs t trophy pump) with a 6.5Ē pulley.
Shaking is 70% abaded. Itís shaking the tires at minimum wheel speed turning, at moderate itís ok.
Next step is to get a 7.5Ē pulley made, and try that. Servo right now is .210, and have .235 , .250, .275 to try.
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Old 09-13-2018, 08:38 AM   #360 (permalink)
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Before you give up letís revisit all your major components please?

Toyota IFS box?
What series pump?
How many stroke by what piston diameter ram?
Single ended or double ended?

If I give you my phone number would you want to call and answer some questions? This can be made to work. I can put a steering wheel or two in your hands that you can whip back and forth with the vehicle at a dead stop with a terrible scrub radius and the front locker locked. Both of the vehicles Iíve done this to work with 200 pound springs and no shaking. I just committed this weekend to help Campbell enterprises put this setup on a turn key 4500 car for some one. Iím pretty confident we can sort this out, Iíd really like to see you make it work actually.
Hey We have been having a hell of a time trying all sorts of things trying to correct our shaking issue , FWjeep has been kind enough to try and come up with a few things but we just cant seem to nail it down can you offer any insight ?
this is Tom moores old toyota car , it doesn't have the turbo'd 4cyl but a v8 in it , all same bell crank set up and steering gear , we have tried every size of pulleys a howe pump , TC pump in it now same as tom , custom pulley made so we are a 1:1 pulley ratio , sweet valve the og one had a 185 rod was horrible bumped to 210 little better but had a wicked chatter literally will make the steering lines come loose after 15 miles of driving .

Just tried a 235 which I think was the next one up then it became way to stiff , tried all the different pulley sizes to that rod size and we just keep chasing our tail with it but seem to be missing something ? any ideas ?
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Old 09-13-2018, 11:25 AM   #361 (permalink)
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Hey We have been having a hell of a time trying all sorts of things trying to correct our shaking issue , FWjeep has been kind enough to try and come up with a few things but we just cant seem to nail it down can you offer any insight ?
this is Tom moores old toyota car , it doesn't have the turbo'd 4cyl but a v8 in it , all same bell crank set up and steering gear , we have tried every size of pulleys a howe pump , TC pump in it now same as tom , custom pulley made so we are a 1:1 pulley ratio , sweet valve the og one had a 185 rod was horrible bumped to 210 little better but had a wicked chatter literally will make the steering lines come loose after 15 miles of driving .

Just tried a 235 which I think was the next one up then it became way to stiff , tried all the different pulley sizes to that rod size and we just keep chasing our tail with it but seem to be missing something ? any ideas ?
My theory on mine was too much play/backlash in the steering box that I couldn't resolve with the adjuster. That where the only movement was in my entire system. The stiffer torsion rod helped but made the steering less than desirable. I restricted flow from the pump which helped but that also ruined the feel I wanted. I gave up and went full hydro and couldn't be happier but I'm not having to follow any rules for racing. If there is any play in your steering box I'd bet that's where the shaking starts.
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Old 09-14-2018, 09:08 AM   #362 (permalink)
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any ideas ?
I wish I could be of more assistance. Broke my computer so I won't be able to really get on here for a few more days.

I really don't know what could have changed that would have made a good working system turn south on you like that. Like Sherm mentioned, I guess as a starting pooint can you chase out any possible play or slack in the mechanical connections?

Can you give me the part numbers for the Sweet valve, the TC pump and the steering box please?
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Old 09-14-2018, 01:33 PM   #363 (permalink)
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I wish I could be of more assistance. Broke my computer so I won't be able to really get on here for a few more days.

I really don't know what could have changed that would have made a good working system turn south on you like that. Like Sherm mentioned, I guess as a starting pooint can you chase out any possible play or slack in the mechanical connections?

Can you give me the part numbers for the Sweet valve, the TC pump and the steering box please?
I can is it easier to pm or email or text yea ?

would love to pick your brain a little if you have a bit of experience with this set up ... I never drove it when it was all together so I dont really know what it felt like all I know now is that it is no good lol it sucks since this was a big part of purchasing it ...

we have the sweet valve that came with it that was a 185 , at the start we used the og tc pump with a 5.5" pulley , was no good , howe supplied us a new valve with a 210 rod , no real big difference still had major chatter

went to a 6.5" pulley made it slightly better , installed that with a howe TT pump and external pressure valve , seemed better than the TC pump , ran it at KOH last year with that , made it 25 miles before lines all worked loose from the chatter causing us obvious issues ... we know that that pump put out far to much volume for the rest of the set up .

center of steering throw seems smoothest , just recently we went back to the tc pump , we built a pulley to match the under drive pulley for a 1:1 ratio helped a little went from a 210 Tbar to a 235 and the chatter was gone but felt like we lost powersteering or was intermittent was bad another way ...

took apart the servos the OG one was missing a oring and had a broken one in it so was kinda bypassing but that didnt change much or what we were hoping , the box was the OG one took it out doesnt feel bad adjusted any play out ... but doesnt really change things ...

Taking the weight off it cycles beautiful , or disconnecting the linkage the hydraulics work great , we are grasping at anything now , ever so slight play in suspension links , box maybe that is enough to cause problem ? , all bell cranks seem tight , we have spend a ridiculous amount of hrs trying every different way and replacing parts back and forth but haven't really made any real gains ...
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Old 12-10-2018, 02:06 PM   #364 (permalink)
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Been trying to solve some issues lately with one on these systems. Hereís some thoughts

Justin at Howe has suggested that an external servo is not nessasarywith a servo already in the box. I have taken apart Howeís hi-flowed sweet servo valve, and I absolutely believe him. Thereís nothing that the Howe modded sweet external servo has that canít be done to the integrated servo. Howe has paid close attention to the fliud flow, especially the low pressure return side.

Howe is doing at least 1 more mod to the servo valve then psc has to thier sweet servo they sell.

If designing a system like this, try your best to minimize the amount of bellcranks and hiems between your servo valve and your hydro cylinder. The servo needs to reference the cylinder, the less slack, slop, friction between the two will make it smoother and better feel.

4.5 gpm is enough for 2.5x1.5 DE cylinder, not much need for more. Itís not enough for a 2.5x1.5 DE and a steering box piston. A 2.5x1.5 ram by itself uses the same amount of fluid per lock-to-lock that a regular hydro assist setup with 1.75 single ended ram uses. You can base your pump needs and servo mods off that. -6 lines to ram are fine.
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Old 12-10-2018, 02:36 PM   #365 (permalink)
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Modifying your own box isnít too bad. Grab a stock box from a junkyard and pull it apart. Psc puts a .185 rod in thier box, this is also aviable in some factory boxes. Changing these can be a pain, they need to be pressed in, and drill the pin with it very centered.
Drilling out the servo valve sucks to do, plan on using a carbide bit (masonary bits have carbide tips) 1/8 dia is plenty. Deburr carefully yet generously. Instead of tapping the lower vein of the box, put the port in the side of the servo housing like psc/Howe has done. Preheat and tig weld with stainless filler. Peen while cooling. Donít warp the housing.
Plan on doing some mods with a lathe, and some dremel/mill work.
Remove the check valve on the inlet pressure port. Run an external pressure relief.
None of this is new news if youíve searched for endless hours, but just writing it down before I forget.
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Old 12-10-2018, 05:38 PM   #366 (permalink)
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Good to see this back on top. Iíll be testing my new setup soon. Cam swap and 4l80e done at the same time. .250 Sweet valve, no mods.
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Old 01-10-2019, 09:24 AM   #367 (permalink)
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Finally have this bled and running. It has power but I need to dial out play in the steering box and also remove some extra friction in the steering shaft to servo to box linkages. I think this is holding me back from turning as fast as I'd like. Also want to try a smaller torsion bar. If anyone has a .150, .175, or .200 spring they'd like to sell to me, please let me know! Otherwise I'll call Sweet next week.
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Old 02-18-2019, 11:31 AM   #368 (permalink)
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BUMP

Hi guys!

Have been reading this thread for many hours now and how did it go for all of you who had problems to get this to work? Could you identify the problem?

Im planning to set up the same system on my rig.
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Old 02-19-2019, 06:55 PM   #369 (permalink)
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I've started and deleted several replies today. I have learned a lot more about this stuff the last year. Have helped some, and let down some. I need to re-connect with the_T_man and see what we can do.

In the past I've tried to be pretty passive about "helping" because I'm not a race shop and I don't sell parts. That was until I directed a friend to talk to AGR steerco for a second opinion on steering solutions. Just last week Beverly Croy had a surgery on a shattered wrist sustained at KOH from the junk he convinced them was the solution to their problem. She hit something minor in her 4500 car pre running and it snapped her wrist because the wheels turn the steering wheel, not the other way around.

I feel terrible because I didn't have time to help them with our solution, which as long as the hydraulic system is intact cannot rip the wheel out of your hand. So I'm hesitant to help at the current time. At the same time, I did help Duane Garretson who has the very first jimmy's 4x4 4500 car. It is 4 linked with a bell crank setup and the steering box is right in front of the drivers feet. He also had one of the first PSC 4500 steering kits that didn't work and has since been pulled from their product line. With it he had the pulsation/oscillation and it was unfix able with the parts he was sold. Still following PSC's advice he removed it and went back to a regular ram assist setup and went back to breaking steering boxes every race. He got sick of that and contacted me to help him out. I built him two gear boxes myself and had him send the servo back to sweet to un PSC it. Those two changes alone fixed the tire shaking issue. Why is that? The only thing I can think is that the servo and pump we are using are meant to be a quick ratio setup. There are no quick ratio manual gearboxes that we've found (and I'm not looking for them). The typical 24:1 manual gear box is to slow and the hydraulic side must out run it in both directions causing the shaking.

Our team just built and raced a brand new 4500 car with a new Howe servo setup like we ran in the old car. Shawn drove it to 5th in class and 24th overall in it's first EMC. I drove it 70 mph in the big whoops out at Johnson valley and it is an absolute pleasure cruise to steer. There are no shaking/oscillation/pulsation issues with our recipe which takes custom box work to make possible. A quickner doesn't solve any problems, it only creates more. So in time it has turned out that one cannot re create our success and cheapen the parts list at the same time. It takes what it takes, anything less results in blown money on a tire shaker.

If you look close you can see the steering box and the servo in this pic
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Old 02-19-2019, 07:03 PM   #370 (permalink)
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In other news, I had just about convinced myself that our setup on the original 4531 car was bomb proof. Then at the last race of 4 seasons on this part, Shawn shattered my perception by hitting something hard enough to explode the sweet servo itself. I hope that 4 years of fatigue played a part in this break.

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Old 02-19-2019, 07:04 PM   #371 (permalink)
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I truly hope that even half the people that I suggest check out this thread, do.
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Old 02-20-2019, 08:47 AM   #372 (permalink)
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How many turns lock to lock is your box? We've implemented this system on my brother's jeep with a scout 2 box. but it is like 4 1/4 turns lock to lock, so we have a 1.5:1 quickener on it. He has a very slight shake. Is there a way to make these scout 2 boxes closer to 3 or even 2.75 turns? We haven't been able to find parts to do this.
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Old 02-20-2019, 09:25 AM   #373 (permalink)
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How many turns lock to lock is your box? We've implemented this system on my brother's jeep with a scout 2 box. but it is like 4 1/4 turns lock to lock, so we have a 1.5:1 quickener on it. He has a very slight shake. Is there a way to make these scout 2 boxes closer to 3 or even 2.75 turns? We haven't been able to find parts to do this.

2 1/4 turns lock to lock. Basically 1 turn either way from center. The pitman points forward so the rig has a 7 1/2" center of shaft to center of hole pitman. We're modifying "3 turn" ram assist boxes that we get from PSC. They don't list the scout box on the website but if you call they have them.

A scout box is still a Saginaw box. I believe that PSC is putting the quick ratio piston and worm gear from an astro van box in them to speed them up. Then we're free floating the piston and welding up the torsion part if the spool valve in them. It sounds like a long way to go to get a fast ratio box but it's been serving us pretty well.
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Old 02-20-2019, 10:10 AM   #374 (permalink)
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so say someone is starting from scratch

what's the parts list for good steering??
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Old 02-20-2019, 10:56 AM   #375 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Member # 544009
Location: Sweden
Posts: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by 91blaze View Post
so say someone is starting from scratch

what's the parts list for good steering??
Second that! Whats todays recipe?

Im running a hydro assist setup with the following ingredients:
3 link with panhard.
8 degrees of caster.
Jeep YJ OEM power steering box, taped with 1/8" NPT.
PSC DE ram 2.25x1.125.
PSC pump, large reservoar: https://www.pscmotorsports.com/95-06...-pump-kit.html
Cooler on low pres side.

It has power but not quick enough and I would also like to have less turns lock/lock.

My plan:
- Astro box with longer pitman and do your free float mod to it and use it as a manual steering box.
- Howe modified Sweet valve, #725, with a 200 spring.
- Howes bypass valve, HOW2251101.
- Keep my PSC pump.

What do you think, would it be a good start or is there any errors you can catch directly?

I appreciate all your knowledge, thanks for sharing!

/Robin, from Sweden.


IMG_2709 by Robin Vesterlund, on Flickr

Last edited by Robe; 02-20-2019 at 10:58 AM.
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