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Old 02-20-2019, 11:33 AM   #376 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 91blaze View Post
so say someone is starting from scratch

what's the parts list for good steering??
What rig are you putting It on? Suspension type? Ultimate goal, trail rig? Race rig? DD?
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:01 PM   #377 (permalink)
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Second that! Whats todays recipe?

Im running a hydro assist setup with the following ingredients:
3 link with panhard.
8 degrees of caster.
Jeep YJ OEM power steering box, taped with 1/8" NPT.
PSC DE ram 2.25x1.125.
PSC pump, large reservoar: https://www.pscmotorsports.com/95-06...-pump-kit.html
Cooler on low pres side.

It has power but not quick enough and I would also like to have less turns lock/lock.

My plan:
- Astro box with longer pitman and do your free float mod to it and use it as a manual steering box.
- Howe modified Sweet valve, #725, with a 200 spring.
- Howes bypass valve, HOW2251101.
- Keep my PSC pump.

What do you think, would it be a good start or is there any errors you can catch directly?

I appreciate all your knowledge, thanks for sharing!

/Robin, from Sweden.


IMG_2709 by Robin Vesterlund, on Flickr
That parts list will get you exactly what we're running except your gearbox will be on the inside of the frame instead of the outside. You'll most likely have to move your steering box to get a forward facing pitman arm orientated to play nice with the rest of your suspension. The astro box will almost cut your turns lock to lock in half.

The strength of the steering will be the same but the wheels turn much quicker and be easier to steer.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:30 PM   #378 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jr4x View Post
That parts list will get you exactly what we're running except your gearbox will be on the inside of the frame instead of the outside. You'll most likely have to move your steering box to get a forward facing pitman arm orientated to play nice with the rest of your suspension. The astro box will almost cut your turns lock to lock in half.

The strength of the steering will be the same but the wheels turn much quicker and be easier to steer.
Alternatively for those not wanting a forward facing pitman arm, a Grand Cherokee box from 92-98 should be 12.7:1 ratio or approximately 3 turns lock to lock. Using a longer pitman arm can reduce the lock. I'm working on grabbing one of these boxes to test and using a longer arm to get down to ~2 turns lock-to-lock.

My steering worked well but it was stiff due to some misalignment in my steering linkage. It should be worked out soon and I'll have my box sorted. I am playing a few other quick ratio boxes from older racing applications of muscle cars and I'll report back when I have solid data on my little steering experiment.

Thanks for all the info jr4x and congrats at KOH, it was awesome to watch you out there.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:41 PM   #379 (permalink)
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@jr4x:
THats awesome to hear. I guess whats left to do is to log in on PayPal and look happy I have stretched the front axle 2" and Im using a Gen Right twisted pitman arm which is even shorter than jeep OEM. So I have like 3.5-4 turns lock-lock. I cant use a longer arm on my steering box as it is right now, the angles will be wierd on the drag link and it will also hit the axle at full bump. My alternatives are either to move my existing box forward as much as possible or get an astro. Im leaning against the astro route, it would also quicken my steering.
Again, thank you!
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Last edited by Robe; 02-20-2019 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:42 PM   #380 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by gtxracer View Post
Alternatively for those not wanting a forward facing pitman arm, a Grand Cherokee box from 92-98 should be 12.7:1 ratio or approximately 3 turns lock to lock. Using a longer pitman arm can reduce the lock. I'm working on grabbing one of these boxes to test and using a longer arm to get down to ~2 turns lock-to-lock.

My steering worked well but it was stiff due to some misalignment in my steering linkage. It should be worked out soon and I'll have my box sorted. I am playing a few other quick ratio boxes from older racing applications of muscle cars and I'll report back when I have solid data on my little steering experiment.

Thanks for all the info jr4x and congrats at KOH, it was awesome to watch you out there.
I6 or V8 Grands? Doesnt matter?
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Old 02-20-2019, 03:02 PM   #381 (permalink)
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2 1/4 turns lock to lock. Basically 1 turn either way from center. The pitman points forward so the rig has a 7 1/2" center of shaft to center of hole pitman. We're modifying "3 turn" ram assist boxes that we get from PSC. They don't list the scout box on the website but if you call they have them.

A scout box is still a Saginaw box. I believe that PSC is putting the quick ratio piston and worm gear from an astro van box in them to speed them up. Then we're free floating the piston and welding up the torsion part if the spool valve in them. It sounds like a long way to go to get a fast ratio box but it's been serving us pretty well.
That's the info I was looking for. Thanks. I know the scout box is a saginaw unit. Been trying to figure out if there are guts from another box that would work, but didn't think the astrovan box would. I'll run over to the junkyard and grab a steering box out of an astrovan and see if we can make a box. I understand about modifying the box. We did all that to "eliminate" the torsion bar in the servo attached to the box. We took a slightly different route for free floating the piston and took the cap off the front of the piston so oil can just flow through.
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Old 02-20-2019, 03:15 PM   #382 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I6 or V8 Grands? Doesnt matter?
Still researching but so far no actual tech to give me a real answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbuff02 View Post
That's the info I was looking for. Thanks. I know the scout box is a saginaw unit. Been trying to figure out if there are guts from another box that would work, but didn't think the astrovan box would. I'll run over to the junkyard and grab a steering box out of an astrovan and see if we can make a box. I understand about modifying the box. We did all that to "eliminate" the torsion bar in the servo attached to the box. We took a slightly different route for free floating the piston and took the cap off the front of the piston so oil can just flow through.
You can use the guts from the Astro box in a behind-the-box application. The box would turn the opposite direction since the worm gear and piston are in the opposite direction. You need the guts from a quick ratio box that shares the same pitman arm orientation.

Good idea on taking the cap off.
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Old 02-20-2019, 03:27 PM   #383 (permalink)
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I've started and deleted several replies today. I have learned a lot more about this stuff the last year. Have helped some, and let down some. I need to re-connect with the_T_man and see what we can do.

In the past I've tried to be pretty passive about "helping" because I'm not a race shop and I don't sell parts. That was until I directed a friend to talk to AGR steerco for a second opinion on steering solutions. Just last week Beverly Croy had a surgery on a shattered wrist sustained at KOH from the junk he convinced them was the solution to their problem. She hit something minor in her 4500 car pre running and it snapped her wrist because the wheels turn the steering wheel, not the other way around.

I feel terrible because I didn't have time to help them with our solution, which as long as the hydraulic system is intact cannot rip the wheel out of your hand. So I'm hesitant to help at the current time. At the same time, I did help Duane Garretson who has the very first jimmy's 4x4 4500 car. It is 4 linked with a bell crank setup and the steering box is right in front of the drivers feet. He also had one of the first PSC 4500 steering kits that didn't work and has since been pulled from their product line. With it he had the pulsation/oscillation and it was unfix able with the parts he was sold. Still following PSC's advice he removed it and went back to a regular ram assist setup and went back to breaking steering boxes every race. He got sick of that and contacted me to help him out. I built him two gear boxes myself and had him send the servo back to sweet to un PSC it. Those two changes alone fixed the tire shaking issue. Why is that? The only thing I can think is that the servo and pump we are using are meant to be a quick ratio setup. There are no quick ratio manual gearboxes that we've found (and I'm not looking for them). The typical 24:1 manual gear box is to slow and the hydraulic side must out run it in both directions causing the shaking.

Our team just built and raced a brand new 4500 car with a new Howe servo setup like we ran in the old car. Shawn drove it to 5th in class and 24th overall in it's first EMC. I drove it 70 mph in the big whoops out at Johnson valley and it is an absolute pleasure cruise to steer. There are no shaking/oscillation/pulsation issues with our recipe which takes custom box work to make possible. A quickner doesn't solve any problems, it only creates more. So in time it has turned out that one cannot re create our success and cheapen the parts list at the same time. It takes what it takes, anything less results in blown money on a tire shaker.

If you look close you can see the steering box and the servo in this pic
Hey yea didnt get to chat with you at KOH this year , we did race , did finish , did have a slight mishap with our box the cap came loose or 4 bolts Im assuming some bumpsteer , after not much luck connecting with you we tried various different configurations again , we modded some boxes like you as that was really the only difference in our steering set up to yours it didnt do the trick . but we are a bellcrank set up like Duane Garretson's car not like yours I think the ratio's are not correct in how they were originally set up . we changed the box and made it a powered box , got rid of the sweet valve and kept the rest I guess now we are just a fancy hydro assist set up lol ... it worked 500% better than last year is it correct now ? probably not were we sick of chasing ourselves in circles yes !!!! it did feel great driving it and not having that ridiculous chatter , for time being we are going to safety the cap bolts , hopefully race the rig a bit this year and when we have more time we will dive into it again ...
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Old 02-20-2019, 07:51 PM   #384 (permalink)
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The 4500 steering that won a national points Championship

If Iím following along correctly:

Iím currently running an Astro van box, matched custom Pittman arm to 60 hi steer arm length.

1.75ĒSE ram.

Drilled and spring modded stock tc style yj pump. Big huge cooler and filter.

Planning for a redo of the front and want to fix the steering at the same time.

I need more power in high load slow speed, and quicker reaction at higher speed stuff.

I can do a scout 2 box, to get it outside the frame rail and still have forward swing?

If sourced from PSC , it will be quicker than a stock replacement scout 2 box?
Or

Put Astro van internals in scout box?

Iím currently drilled and tapped in the regular diy Saginaw location.

If I do the free float piston to the scout box with Astro internals, add the sweet servo, and swap to a double ended ram or larger SE ram, that would be a good start?

Thinking about one of Scott trimarcos gear pumps with external relief.

Any specific posts or threads to find that detail the free float piston mod, and welding the torsion bar in the scout/Astro box to turn it into a ďmanualĒ box?

Running leafs now, but going to a 3 link with panhard, and cutting the front frame off.

Application is trail jeep on stickies with some prerunning on the lakebed, with some street/beach time in the summer.

Thanks in advance.

Last edited by Mac5005; 02-20-2019 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 02-21-2019, 10:54 AM   #385 (permalink)
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You can use the guts from the Astro box in a behind-the-box application. The box would turn the opposite direction since the worm gear and piston are in the opposite direction. You need the guts from a quick ratio box that shares the same pitman arm orientation.

Good idea on taking the cap off.
The Scout 2 box is a forward swing pitman arm like the astrovan.
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Old 02-21-2019, 11:45 AM   #386 (permalink)
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The Scout 2 box is a forward swing pitman arm like the astrovan.
Yeah you're right, sorry didn't notice you're running Scout II.
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Old 02-22-2019, 09:13 AM   #387 (permalink)
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What rig are you putting It on? Suspension type? Ultimate goal, trail rig? Race rig? DD?
If we are building around good steering - with a steering box to meet these rules and/or maybe to help with legalities and safety of street driving while having an good steering offroad vehicle

Personally I have a JKU frame and some 1 ton axles and just want it to steer good on and off road. my full hydro on a buggy is great but might be more than the wife wants to daily

ie - what's the best box to use - strength/packaging/ratio

then is there anything suspension/link wise that would be recommended? 4 link, 3 link, watts link, crazy swingset stuff - also with KISS in mind.

thanks for sharing your knowledge! need more of it around here
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Old 02-22-2019, 09:18 AM   #388 (permalink)
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The Scout 2 box is a forward swing pitman arm like the astrovan.

Another option is the 2005+ superduty box. They have a front facing pitman arm and are massive all around.



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Old 03-19-2019, 06:49 AM   #389 (permalink)
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Well as many others have said I have read and reread this thread 3 times to try and make sure I am understanding everything.

I'm more interested in this application for a trail/street rig. I'm not racing or anything just trying to build a bulletproof rig. Since I have never broken any steering parts other than a few hoses I don't know if this applies to me. I started reading it for the possibilities of a way to be able to push my front axle forward without having to go full hydro. But since there is still a draglink it doesn't help.

So if anyone has any input into my application I'd love to hear it. I like the idea of this and like even more the fact that it wouldn't have to worry about my thumbs getting broken or the steering wheel whipped out of my hands.
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Old 03-19-2019, 07:01 AM   #390 (permalink)
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Well as many others have said I have read and reread this thread 3 times to try and make sure I am understanding everything.

I'm more interested in this application for a trail/street rig. I'm not racing or anything just trying to build a bulletproof rig. Since I have never broken any steering parts other than a few hoses I don't know if this applies to me. I started reading it for the possibilities of a way to be able to push my front axle forward without having to go full hydro. But since there is still a draglink it doesn't help.

So if anyone has any input into my application I'd love to hear it. I like the idea of this and like even more the fact that it wouldn't have to worry about my thumbs getting broken or the steering wheel whipped out of my hands.
What rig do you intend to build up? For most steering box applications there is an option to bolt on a a box that the pitman points forward instead of back. Like for a jeep CJ/YJ/TJ/XJ a chevy astro van box is a direct bolt on and allows you to move the front end forward without moving the box location.
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Old 03-19-2019, 11:14 PM   #391 (permalink)
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What rig do you intend to build up? For most steering box applications there is an option to bolt on a a box that the pitman points forward instead of back. Like for a jeep CJ/YJ/TJ/XJ a chevy astro van box is a direct bolt on and allows you to move the front end forward without moving the box location.
jrx4,
Sorry it is a 97 TJ. I need to look at the Astro box more. I thought I had read it was for going 6" or more forward and I'm not sure I want to go that far.

My Jeep is a little different and there are some things I am trying to keep becasue of an injury. I have the Off-Road Only AiRock kit on my Jeep. It has air bags in place of the springs and is rated as a 6" lift. I'm a right lower leg amputee and being able to lower the Jeep down to get into and out of it really helps. So I have to keep stock type coil spring mounts.

What you came up with is very interesting and I liked reading the thread just for the tech. It might be something I do to my Jeep at some point. Good luck with the rest of the racing season.
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Old 04-18-2019, 04:30 PM   #392 (permalink)
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Jr have you tried these KRC race pumps? pricey, but adjustable output and trick..

https://www.krcpower.com/ecommerce/a...3-29116811.asp
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Old 04-21-2019, 02:03 AM   #393 (permalink)
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Jr have you tried these KRC race pumps? pricey, but adjustable output and trick..



https://www.krcpower.com/ecommerce/a...3-29116811.asp


I have used them on a few builds. Worked great.
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